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24 bit 96khz vs 24 bit 48 khz (final round)

Discussion in 'Converters / Interfaces' started by seti, Mar 9, 2002.

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  1. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Re: 24 bit 96khz vs 24 bit 48 khz final round

    Hi Ted. The answer is not really. Although anti-alias filters are designed to remove the high frequencies beyond the Nyquist point, many of the artifacts are not limited to the high frequencies. Both phase and ripple artifacts can affect the perception of sound quality anywhere in the audio spectrum. So rolling off the top end may (or may not) help a little but isn't going to give you the sound quality that using a high end converter with top class filters would. Another point to consider is that your software and plugins may not sound as good at 48kS/s as they do @ 96kS/s. Some plugs (especially those that EQ) may have to filter thier results to stay within the 48kS/s Nyquist point. So depending on the plug's filter algorithms and how and when they are applied you could find yourself with the best converters on the market but still experiencing crappy filter artifacts. IMHO it's the filtering in the Sony EQ plug that makes it sound so much better than other EQ plugs I've heard, but then it is quite a DSP hog. So a question to ask yourself is: Is it worth dropping 10 grand on a stereo ADC if the rest of your signal and processing chain is just going to mangle it's output? My advice would be to hire in a dB Tech for a day and see if you feel it makes 10 grand's worth of difference to your audio quality. Also if you get the chance plug it into something other than Cubase, say PT, Soundscape or Logic and see the difference when dropping in a few plugs. BTW, I haven't heard the dB Tech modular series so I can't say.

    ED, I not heard the MOTU 1296 so I can't say for sure but I'd be more than a little surprised if the filters don't have some artifacts @ 48kS/s or lower. The only units I've heard with great filters are the dB Tech Gold, the dB Tech Blue, the Prism (although not quite as good as the dB Tech Gold) and here's a surprise; the A/D converters on the TC System 6000! Bare in mind that even the dB Tech converters don't have perfect filters, just better than anyone else (IMHO). The quality of filtering @ 48kS/s does seem to be directly related to price, only expect your 48kS/s converters to keep up with the latest and next generation 96kS/s converters if you've got mega-bucks to spend.

    Greg
     
  2. Ted Nightshade

    Ted Nightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2001
    Re: 24 bit 96khz vs 24 bit 48 khz final round

    Thanks again Greg.
    I'm thinking the dB blue series you mention is in fact the Modular 44 96 series I mentioned. dB only makes two lines as far as their website says, and they are blue.
    I don't do any plugins so far, but I do suspect the reason I find the Cubase EQ so tolerable is that I've been working at 96. I use it seldom. So that is not such a big issue, although I wonder if simple digital mixing would be affected substantially by going down to 48.
    Thanks for providing some good perspective on the converter dilemma.
    Ted
     
  3. anonymous

    anonymous Guests

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2001
    Re: 24 bit 96khz vs 24 bit 48 khz final round

    Great thread!
    :)
    Can I just add that sometimes I have found when multi-mic-ing drums that a "mix & match" sysytem of using several diffrent types of converters CAN result in some slight phase / comb filtering issues due to the diferent 'conversion throughput' times between models..
    :eek:
     
  4. Ted Nightshade

    Ted Nightshade Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2001
    Re: 24 bit 96khz vs 24 bit 48 khz final round

    Hey Jules,
    Thanks for the heads up!

    One more workaround idea:

    1) Record basic tracks at 96khz. Keep all the drum mics on the same prime converters (I only usually have 2,3, or 4), maybe put some direct tracks through the second string converters.

    2) Downsample all that to 48khz. (Issues? I know this can be tricky, and great downsampling is mandantory- what does that entail?)

    3) Overdub at 48khz.

    This is all an attempt to squeeze some more tracks out of my PowerBook system, while keeping stuff sounding great.

    So what are the issues with downsampling and what does it take to do this well? My cheapie experiences so far are not encouraging...
    Ted
     
  5. Move On Up Productions

    Move On Up Productions Active Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Location:
    Orange County California
    Hello all here in this forum this is a great topic and you all have great input, thank you.. I have some great news as I just found out a few weeks ago that KENWOOD < (which means JVC as well ) have themselves a gem of a proprietary patend that they have released that sounds incredible. It has to do directly with some of the questions in this blog. This new technology they have allows you to put your music cd into your car stereo and it will remove all the compression added to it,(post mastering) in the converting to 16bit and allow you to hear it as it was recorded and mastered in the studio or as close to it as possible up to 24 bit 96k . I found this as I was reading up on the JVC car stereos in the Best Buy catalog online and about fell out of my chair with excitement. Now I just have to part with my car for a day to get it installed but i will follow up with the results after its installed and tested by me.. Thats why we record in 24 bit & whatever 44-48-96 you know how much better it sounds and now you can feel it i your car.. Oh and they also play DVD's and I believe possibly (but I don't remember for sure) play blue ray too so that means you can record your files now to DVD as it is 24 bit and listen to your uncompressed files in your car and if it plays blue ray then blue ray is 32 bit meaning these decks would have the codecs for anything up to 32 bit to play in your vehicle, all the while allowing your 16 bit cds to be heard as 24 bit recordings... I just love the people at KENWOOD & JVC for this... I believe that they have done something that will improve the quality of life for many, many music lovers out there like myself.. Just thought I would do my part to share the love and so I joined here today.. Thanks For Reading J J L
     
  6. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2013
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
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    Hi and welcome to RO !!

    It's great that makers still want to offer better products and better sound quality.
    Honestly, my 2 last cars didn't have a cd or dvd player and didn't even have space to install one. With the onboard computer, it seems, they either want us to listen to numeric radio or mp3.
    So while it's cool to see those products come out. I think it's a bit late regarding new cars.

    Upscalling do not give better quality as far as I know...
     
    niclaus and kmetal like this.
  7. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

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    Feb 7, 2014
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    Lowestoft - UK
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    Yep - and how exactly will it put back what hasn't been recorded? No doubt an algorithm can CREATE new information likely to have been removed, but isn't this like Aphex Expanders - making music sparkle. I also DON'T know about the differences between 16,24 and 32 bit floating and 44.1, 48 and 96 upwards. I can hear very, very small differences, but maintain that a really good CD release from the 80s can sound better than a 96K contemporary product recorded averagely. I also wonder about audio quality in vehicles? I'm damn sure the best audio system I use is NOT on 4 wheels. That one is very bassy, and goes duh duh when you turn the volume up. That is NOT quality.

    I don't get this at all. I suspect the new patent will liven up dull CDs, but not all CDs need it!
     
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  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    smoke and mirrors. "There's a sucker born every minute."
     
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  9. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Well-Known Member

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  10. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    i may be confused. i have never heard of any "compression" data or otherwise, being involved in the conversion from 24 bits to 16 bits or from 96k to 48k sample rates. am i mistaken?
     
  11. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Lowestoft - UK
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    Reading a little I think they're talking about the reduction in available dynamic range rather than the usual compression, but 16-24 is detail at the bottom full scale is still full scale, so in fact in the recording I'm planning, this range would be a benefit. It's a classical piece by Verdi, and there will be an audience. The music starts at ppp, which will be down around the level of breathing and foot rumble, then gets louder, and at maximum is deafening. This clearly benefits from 24 bit recording IF I could silence the audience, but would be pointless in a car, you'd not hear anything for the first five miles. Any algorithm that could put back the missing low level stuff would confuse the music with the people. Being able to do things doesn't mean we should.
     
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  12. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Well-Known Member

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    Quebec, Canada
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    If I'm right, no compression, but some data must be left behind so most algorithm do some wisery to avoid the transition to be audible. . . Some will use Dithering to add some random noise to mask the lost.

    hi-res-sound-wave-graph_updated.jpg
     
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    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

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