Allen & Heath GS-R24

Discussion in 'Consoles / Control Surfaces' started by hueseph, Oct 29, 2012.

  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

  1. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    The way I see it, there isn't an all in one solution. The arguably more important part initially is recording channels. The zed gives you pres and eqs, as well as computer connectivity. The computer connectivity may or may not work well with your aurura. But it does cover the pre and eq, and even headphones sends, and keeps your hands one something better than a mouse.

    The bonus is the daw control. If you find it suits your needs, perfect. If not it's much easier to add 8ch controller units as time and money allow, than to add a board.

    The zed seems like a logical first step. It may so everything you need. If it doesn't play nice w your aurura you could add another aurura and still use the ssd's analog sections. If it doesn't fufill the daw control satisfactory enough then there's always the ability to add artist mix units or whatever you choose.

    The zed seems like a solid foundation, and just may be the whole house. If not, you don't diminish the Zeus usefulness by adding conversion or controllers, you enhance it.

    Most importantly it gets you your required recording channels, and gives you an interface/conversion for your 2nd daw.

    To me this gets you in gear the fastest. Vs coverter so no pres, or an elaborate control surface setup that you may not need.
     
  2. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Well-Known Member

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    There are other vendors, like Editor Keys, that sell both full mac keyboards, and/or skins for StudioOne. And you probably already use the FaderPort for general Transport and jumping between Markers.
     
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  3. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    Actually I'm using the Nuendo Keypad more and more! I was brain dead when I posted about the transport. And yes, the faderport at times as well.
    Thanks Dave
     
  4. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    The Aurora thing does concern me a bit but I'll likely just have to try.

    You're right about the pres, send options and no mouse.

    I don't know what you mean about using the solid state drive's analog sections with 32 channels of ADDC???? Could you help me understand?

    And last but certainly not least, I wonder if the ADDA's of the ZED would be a noticeable quality step down to the aurora?
    I think you are right about the ZED being a good foundation piece even if I have to add controllers later.
     
  5. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    I'm sorry my auto correct has a mind of its own, And not exactly a bright mind. Lol.

    I mean the zeds analog section.

    So what I meant was even if you had to add coverters your main part of the board (the analogue parts) don't get put to waste.

    My main concern is the connectivity of the converters. How are you connecting the aurura? Looks like there's a few options. Seems like they all do 16ch up to 96k and TB does 32 ch across the board.

    W the zed my concern would be the FireWire connectivity vs the conversion quality. The big question as far as conversation / channel count is when do you picture yourself past 16ch and still recording integral instruments, where slight differences in conversion would be noticable. Your gonna notice a difference between Lynx and something in a different class. The question is does it matter? I've abc'd MOTU, apogee Rosetta, and apogee ensemble, one night at the studio. And the Rosetta was noticeably better. The ensemble was muddy by comparison. And the MOTU was pedestrian. The Rosetta did one thing. Convert audio. And it did it the best by 2-3 points on the scale. The more features you add the less quality you get in each part, unless the price goes up in direct propetion. Even then. Squeezing stuff in requires design compromises of space and power consumption. By the time you get everything all in one you've got a huge, power hungry, fantastic piece of gear.

    it comes down to what you need each component for in a real world scenerio, and that's what determines if it's a good fit. I did some google searching cuz I'm interested. Here's some quick finds.


    This thing converts, does hui mode (not sure how many channels) it's got pres, just the words in the description vs the zed allude to a difference in the target marketing. I've never used this. But it would seem it's equal or better than the zed. Being digital it's got full instant recall. Again I've never used it so I have no clue but it's very closely priced to the zed.

    http://www.proaudiostar.com/midas-m32r.html#info


    This thing doesn't have pres, but does 16ch of adda (burr-brown) via USB. It's 1k more than the zed. But it's neve. The adda is more money the second link is for the whole thing w the faders. W auxes out, and pre/post fader option it really opens a lot of options. And it's neve. There is also a recall software for re setting the knobs. It's got no eq but the internal circuitry probably 'betterizes' things in a way only excellent eqs could exceed.

    http://vintageking.com/neve-8816-su...CZBBHecQ1UgK2Vy18SglvkTwwWRlvxH7UjhoCX-Xw_wcB

    http://vintageking.com/neve-8816-summing-package#description


    Sorry everything I suggest is always more expensive. I just like things that do one job well. I've spent so much time on prosumer hear that when I do use the good stuff it's always easier, faster, more fun, and a better end result. The price difference are usually 30-1000% more. And some things like an sm 57 are both cheap and killer. Or a eureka channel. Or a peq 15. Some things sound way better than they should for the price. Most things however are priced directly proportional to quality. Exceptions are usually high channel count like the Orion, foreign (asian) made like audio technica. Usually it's something cheap to mid priced that sounds mid priced or pro entry. There's very few pieces that are both pro standard and priced budget or mid.

    From my research in the past year and a half on gear and computers the best way to 'save' money is to no buy features you don't absolutely need. No fat. That and riding the line of significant diminishing returns. Like conversion Orion or aururA is at a good point. To get even slightly 'better' your doubling the price per channel. And it gets to a point where it may not be better just different. As soon as you get to the point where conversion is 'out of the way' imho your at a good point. W MOTU or worse you lose something in the translation. That's not good. As long as it maintains the integrity of whatever is plugged in, it's doing its job. Boutique conversion is cool, but not at the expense of high end things prior to it in the chain first. Conversion is computer stuff. Moore's law applies. In reality where only on 3rd gen standalone conversion / interfaces so, it's likely we will see lower pricing and higher quality with better latency specs for a while. For the record I've decided on an RME babyface for my main adda on my portable rig. Maybe something like that would fit your requirements for mixdown adda. I felt it's the lowest step into truly pro. The step past MOTU. And it's German designed so therefore cool. Lol, sorry boz I've realized the English engineering is pretty freakin awsome too!
     
  6. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    No, in high-quality gear, clocks are either internal or are brought in on external connectors or embedded in external data feeds. In the last 5 - 10 years, there has been a gradual change in the design of the treatment of brought-in clocks. The trend in quality modern gear is always to run the conversions from the internal low phase-noise clock; in this way, the design can be optimised for just that one clock. External clocks from BNC inputs, ADAT, S/PDIF etc are conditioned and then, rather than replace the internal clock, are used to control its frequency so that it matches the external source. The control loop that does this is very tight but low-bandwidth, so is largely unaffected by jitter on the incoming clock signal. The result is that, unless an external clock is of particularly poor quality, the conversion clock always has very much the same jitter and noise specifications.
     
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  7. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    Right now it's AES (PCIe card, Lynx AES 16e) Ii and out of Box 1 (Mac Pro, Nuendo) from outboard pres and the Mix Wiz direct outs. I also use it as a 2 bus monitor point of Box 1 for my Dangerous ST.

    Well, even if I don't need more than 16 channels, I may want to use an outboard pre for vocals or acoustic instruments. I thought those feeds could go through better conversion available with the Aurora rather than being put through the ZED (as insert or through the ZED pres as well on the way into the DAW) and if I'm understanding correctly, end up using the Zed conversions.

    I think I get your point, so even if I need more channels than the 16 (big drum kit/extra percussion, stereo electric guit. amp DI's plus multiple cab mics, various keys all at once...I am a strong proponent of tracking the whole group at once "old school style" and then dub-over where needed later), I could use the ZED (and it's conversion qualities) for percussion/electric guitar/bass/keys and leave signals that would benefit from a step up in conversion quality to the aurora. I guess so much depends on how well the DAW/Mac play with the Aurora and Zed conversion at the same time.

    YUP....
    and I couldn't agree more.

    That's good sound advice for me.

    I went back over my own posts for the past 2 1/2 years on what to do next in moving my rig forward and "need" verses "wants". This quest was beneficial because I made gains in my chops and understanding and have narrowed my preferred workflow to hybrid, utilizing the 2 Box concept with an analog pass. That's a good thing! I was able to slowly add and delete components to make this work without breaking the bank.

    I've also noticed that I get all worked up (cart before the horse) about once a year and feel the "need" to take another step forward, even though I have no actual demands to do so because beyond recording my own stuff/band for our fun and sometimes demos, I have no clients!

    It would be nice to have better pres to track with right now but in reality, right now, that is a "want". I am so sick of the mouse and the Faderport is just a tease. So in terms of "need" I feel justified in taking the control surface piece another step forward, which would be a need in my learning curve as well I think. (Am I just rationalizing?)

    So again, without getting too far into the "want" category for now, it feels like the toss up is Artist Mix (or something similar) or the ZED r16?
    The price difference is notable but bang for buck makes the ZED a no brainer I think, if nothing else, the improvement in pres over what I have now.

    The Zed choice would slow my construction funding by a month. I'm finalizing HVAC (mostly labor) as well as AC wiring (some materials and electrician) in an attempt to start insulation and closing in walls (big up front expenses and my labor...good projects for our long winter...first frost shows up in about 2 weeks...ooof!).

    So even though a control surface is my only justifiable "need" in my present workflow development, that Zed is very tempting and may be worth the 4% extension of time to gather funds for construction completion/retirement. I have already extended that plan by a year so what's another month....

    Before I pull the trigger I think I'll sit with this a little longer and see if you guys have any other thoughts if you don't mind. There's an awful tempting deal on feebay right now for a new Zed with 2-AT 4040's thrown in.
     
  8. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    @Boswell
    One more question if you don't mind?
    If I were to step up to the Zed R16, would there be a significant improvement in pre quality over my Mix Wiz?
     
  9. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    Yes.
     
  10. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    As I figured. Ah well....

    I've learned a lot through this thread and appreciate the input. I've also taken to heart K's comments as well.

    I did a serious finances overview and considering the stage of my build, I'm gonna go with one Artist Mix for now until my next "need" arises. Perhaps a Zed someday...
    Again, thanks so much for your patience and feedback Bos.

    @kmetal Kyle, thanks to you too man! Good luck with your process and I'll keep lurking!
     
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  11. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    I have seen them Dave (@dvdhawk...I currently use an Apple keyboard with a PC) but I searched for one of those silicone overlays to suit the keyboard but they only do them for the Apple laptop from there and other makers seem to only do the overlay to suit my keyboard for just about every other DAW but Studio One.

    The thing is, I can't really justify paying 3 times what an Apple keyboard costs for their version of the Apple keyboard with the color coded shortcut keys...that seems a little OTT to me...
    and the black PC Studio One keyboard they offer appear to be a cheap plastic keyboard that many have had issues with keys not working or falling off if you go by the reviews ( I think this was the backlit one from memory...?)
     
  12. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    As an outsider to this thread looking in, and as someone who doesn't actually own any of their gear but who has used it in the past, I can say that my experiences with any A&H gear I've ever used has always been positive.
    I've always really liked the sound of their mic pres, and it's been my impression that they always seem to put solid thought and focus into the layouts and features of their consoles.

    I recently did a hired-gun session at a small studio where they were using the Zed R-16, and while I'd heard good things about the Zed in the past, I'd never actually had the opportunity to use one before.
    I was very impressed by its sonics. If I was looking to get into a reasonably affordable hybrid workflow/layout that wouldn't cost me a kidney and a lung - LOL -, based on what I recently heard and experienced with that Zed 16, I can say with full confidence that one of the Zed models would be a serious contender.
    With the exception of perhaps the Presonus SL series, I'm not sure that there really would be a similarly-priced choice over the A&H, that would sound as good as what I heard. I'm not saying there isn't something else as good in the same price range... I'm just saying I'm not aware of any ... (I'm happy to be given alternatives to consider).

    Anyway, For whatever my opinion is worth on the subject... ;)
     
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  13. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    At this level in the A+H range, it's only the Zed-R16 and the GS-R24 (i.e. the full Recording models) that have the top-quality pre-amps. The other Zed non-R models have perfectly respectable pre-amps for live sound mixers, but from my experience they are not in the same league as those in the two R models.
     
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  14. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Awsome really good to know.

    GAS plagues us all buddy.!!

    The artist mix plus ISA 828 cost what the zed does roughly. It gives you have as many pre amps. But the digital output card ($500) and a budget interface would expand your channel count for a few hundred. Something like the asp800 or octopre is probably along the lines of the zed pres but omit eq.

    Even if the zed does play nice the system as a shoe would be reduced to FireWire latency performance, unless you use two seperate configurations in the sound card options and swapped between the two. Plus FireWire is being phased out. USB is long term safe, and Thunderbolt and Ethernet are the two new kids. Ethernet probably not going out of fashion along w USB.

    Maybe a lynx 8 used and an 8ch pre amp would fit the bill? Not sure if they daisy chain. But that also goes 2k above the zed unless you got an octo pre .

    Man and to think 8 hours south I woke in a pool of sweat!!!!
     
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  15. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    I wish I had someone with a ZED to try out with my system so I could make a decision down the road when ready. It would be a very inexpensive way to gain a nice batch of pres and not have to upgrade my computer end of things before getting started with clients.

    I tried to analyze the signal flow from the block diagram to see if there would be a way to bypass the onboard converters and use the analog output from each channel separately. That way, at the least, I could record with those pres through my Aurora. I think this would work tapping out through the inserts, unbalanced. Not sure if I could use the EQ this way or not also?

    I don't think I would know if my setup would be clean enough power/grounding wise to allow this without hum issues. I am using an Equitech power supply (Massive Toroidial Transformer) which is damn clean but I probably wouldn't know until I try. If and when I'm ready I'll have to ask Bos about this as he is quite the expert when it comes to the A+H stuff and obviously so much more.

    On another note, we do live at 600' above sea level so we gain about a month up here after other folks get their frost. Gives us a little longer growing season and easier to harvest the garden!
    Later!
     
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  16. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    Thanks for chiming in Donny! It helps me feel even more confident about the ZED.....perhaps a year from now! Off to more searching for a reasonable price on an Artist Mix....
     
  17. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    On the Zed-R16, the ADCs are normally pre-EQ, but the uppermost of the 4 buttons next to the channel faders switches that to post-EQ on a per-channel basis. You can take the signals out through the inserts, unbalanced as you say, but the Aurora will have no problem with that. Use a TS-TS jack lead for this unless you want the channel's signal to go on through the mixer as well as coming out from the insert jack. In the latter case, you will need either to wire your own TRS leads or use the Hosa DOC106 adaptors and conventional TS looms.

    I can almost guarantee you would have no hum problems with taking unbalanced signals out of the insert jacks, provided you are sensible about which outlets you have your mains leads plugged into.
     
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  18. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    Thanks for clarifying all that Bos. This helps clear my thinking up so much more. I could certainly build the adapters and a TS multi-cable snake with what I have on hand now and some multichannel cable.. With the analog signal carrying through, it opens up a lot of options for my analog pass between Boxes.

    My thinking (lack of experience) had me hung up on how I could utilize the analog sections of the board. I was reading the manual and the block diagram over and over but not really understanding what was actually pretty clearly stated.

    As I draw back and see this all a little more clearly, with the functionality and quality of the ZED, plus what I've got, I think I'd have a respectable rig with at least 16 record channels and 25 potential pres of decent variety to open my shop with.

    I wouldn't have to upgrade a thing for a while, and then have money to focus on better reference speakers, patchbay, and cabling to open with. Then, if needed later, another Aurora 16 if I had the need and be up and going sooner. This could likely get me by for a good amount of time while I'm getting established. I would then be able to fine tune and be comfortable with a familiar workflow upon opening.

    Another somewhat minor but reasonable point I think is that I was beginning to envision a very cluttered workspace build with the ST control, Artist Mix, Console, screen/(s), mouse and keyboard all crammed in front of and by me. This would cut the clutter some.

    I have various pieces of this and that about I could likely sell to gain an extra 500-700$ with any luck. I've been poking around the net "in my spare time" and found a dealer offering 10% off for the next week or 2 and free shipping. This may be doable yet....

    I wonder if this is just more GAS (gear acquisition syndrome or my pure hot air)??????
    Sorry for the rambling.

    Thanks once again Bos.
    I greatly appreciate your knowledge, patience and generosity. I really could never be this far without support like yours and so many others here!
    I hope someday I too can be there for others, yet I fear that's a long way off.

    I'll try to follow up when I feel ready to make a final choice.
     
  19. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Distinguished Member

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    Unfortunately I won't be able to hit this cycle of the sale, but next time hopefully I'll be ready. I've been eyeing the artist mix for a while. Looks like it's on sale for the month.

    http://vintageking.com/sale/monthly-specials-2/260-off-avid-artist-mix-3
     
  20. vibrations1951

    vibrations1951 Active Member

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    Thanks K
    I must be off my rocker! See my last post for more of my insane thinking.
    I'm nuts.....I know it....I've got the credentials to prove it.
    Please tell me I'm wrong!
     
  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

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