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Analog Summing Boxes ?

Discussion in 'Summing / Mastering consoles' started by Tommy osuna, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    there's this and this too
     
  2. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    To us designers, transformers are interesting in that they are the only simple passive components that can subtract.
     
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  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I like that.

    To add for fun ;)
    Transformers are to an audio engineer, shading techniques to an artist. Then we have the knife, the brush, the canvas.
    For fun, in my audio spectrum of space/size vs colours, my pallet of preamp colours would go... transformer-less pres on the sides (the room = the canvas) , transformers and tubes for the (colours = shading).

    I've asked the guys at Dangerous to comment on the thread Kurt pointed us to. I hope they respond.
     
  4. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    Hmm, yes, but I was talking in strict engineering terms. Resistor networks sum, i.e. their output is an addition of defined fractions of all the inputs. A resistor network can give you L+R (to give mono or M channel), but no resistor network on its own can give L-R. To do this involves a subtraction, or its equivalent: a polarity inversion followed by a summation. Transformers can give you a polarity inversion simply by interchanging the terminal wires on either the primary or the secondary, and thereafter you can feed a resistor network to achieve the L-R.

    Some of the simple passive M-S converters I produce (yes, people do order them from me) require to be fed from true balanced inputs, so that the box receives both the + and - polarities of the two input channels. From there, it's an easy matter to generate M+S and M-S or L+R and L-R with appropriate amplitude controls. The most difficult part is getting hold of log law potentiometers that track accurately.
     
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  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I know, just having a creative moment ;)

    Right on Kurt.

    Throughout my 38 year career, quality built gear has always improved my business. I always learn something from my purchases and one of them is, I can't solder lol! . Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people that can build much, so I am at a loss. I have to buy everything I use. Kudo's to those with that skill.

    Over the last 5 years hybrid summing and mastering , I'm trusting more and more in transformerless summing and mastering consoles as being choice because, I'd rather have choices to a wider pallet (character to transparent) through inserting outboard gear where it counts rather than having transformers in every part of your chain, subtracting HD sound while leaving a footprint that I was there. Versatility = more options, more opportunies.

    I've asked Dangerous Music to chime in here and hopefully explain why some prefer transformerless designs at this stage of the game.
     
  6. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    Understood, but if you want to use M-S processing between your mix and your capture system you have to make some choices. Using two-phase (balanced) inputs to an M-S encoder means you can generate unbalanced M-S outputs purely by resistive summing. If your passive mix process gives you only an unbalanced (single-phase) output, you either need electronics (non-passive) or transformers to generate the required difference terms in the S equation.
     
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  7. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Benchmark results , what are the pro's an cons to either choice?


    I like the idea of using pre-amps to add another colour! How cool does that sound! I mean, give it all to me but can I have it all while still keeping the path clean at the click of a switch?
    The more ways to mash it up in a hybrid chain without degrading the better. But, I always want to have the core open and transparent because I don't want some tracks or stem or the master to be effected from transformers all the time. How can we get it all?

    Here is another twist to this thread:

    I'm a musician always trying new things, dreaming of how I can add some wild distortion. A few years ago (before I got the Neos) I contacted Justin (Folcrom) and asked if this was possible if I could incorporate the Folcrom with the MixDream / Dangerous Master combo.. Here is what he said:

     
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  8. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Simply for the continued interested of this awesome thread, and now specifically to do with the latest discussions on M/S,
    I received a simple but confirmed explanation with a link explaining my question and reasons I choose the Dangerous Master M/S, Thanks Sean!

     
  9. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    ya gotta love a guy who tells you why you don't need to buy something from him .......(y)
     
  10. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Indeed. Which Bos has suggested to me more than once. (y)
     
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    moving ahead :p ,

    I'm going to kick myself for selling my MP 2NV. I have wanted to use the EQ 2NV coupled with the MP 2NV in the Dangerous Master to add character to that EQ. ( you need both GR products for this)

    thus, insert the EQ into one of the 3 Dangerous Master inserts for tranny mojo. Which once again, what the DM or summing boxes in general excels at! Imagine putting a tube in the middle and tranny on the sides of a mix. Its pretty cool. And thats just a snip of what all this offers.

    UA tubes and tranny vibe is my "Go To" mojo makers lately. They are so full of character, who needs anything more lol!
    Which is why a cleaner and more open capture and summing solution that allows adding mojo further down the chain works well a lot of the time.
    UA mojo can get extreme! I prefer to mix mojo rather than it forced upon me all the time.

    I bet your Millennia Pre will rock too Kurt!

    I like something that has the full deal rather than a tiny teaser too . Being able to parallel process mojo or insert distortion through a transparent mastering console, blend character specific to your needs while the entire chain is still transparent and open, is a super cool deal about hybrid audio and these summing boxes in general.
     
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  12. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    it would be if i had 2 ....
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    right . I was thinking you had a pair all the time.
     
  14. Namin

    Namin Active Member

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    This mix sounds huge...there is plenty of space around the vocals, I mean its just right there in the center. I am listening through my Se Munro Eggs. Beautiful song btw! Lovely made my day/night!
     
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  15. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Thanks Namin. I actually made about 5 versions of this song using different methods and analog gear. This version had an intended extra long reverb decay and tail that I used to demonstrate how smooth it all summed via analog. The reverb is a Bricasti M7 that I put at the end of the mix just before capturing the mixdown to a second DAW.
    I wouldn't normally use such a long reverb but I agree, it does sounds huge. Its such a great song as well. Such a beautiful voice.

    If I find them, I will try and find all the versions of this mix and re-post them through our server. I uploaded them before to Soundcloud, which isn't the best quality. I have since stopped using Soundcloud and unfortunately lost the data needed to store a lot of my past examples.
     
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