# Analog Summing Boxes ?

Discussion in 'Summing / Mastering consoles' started by Tommy osuna, Nov 29, 2014.

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1. ### Kurt FosterWell-Known Member

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77 Sunset Lane.
there's and too

2. ### BoswellModeratorWell-Known Member

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To us designers, transformers are interesting in that they are the only simple passive components that can subtract.

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3. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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I like that.

Transformers are to an audio engineer, shading techniques to an artist. Then we have the knife, the brush, the canvas.
For fun, in my audio spectrum of space/size vs colours, my pallet of preamp colours would go... transformer-less pres on the sides (the room = the canvas) , transformers and tubes for the (colours = shading).

I've asked the guys at Dangerous to comment on the thread Kurt pointed us to. I hope they respond.

4. ### BoswellModeratorWell-Known Member

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Hmm, yes, but I was talking in strict engineering terms. Resistor networks sum, i.e. their output is an addition of defined fractions of all the inputs. A resistor network can give you L+R (to give mono or M channel), but no resistor network on its own can give L-R. To do this involves a subtraction, or its equivalent: a polarity inversion followed by a summation. Transformers can give you a polarity inversion simply by interchanging the terminal wires on either the primary or the secondary, and thereafter you can feed a resistor network to achieve the L-R.

Some of the simple passive M-S converters I produce (yes, people do order them from me) require to be fed from true balanced inputs, so that the box receives both the + and - polarities of the two input channels. From there, it's an easy matter to generate M+S and M-S or L+R and L-R with appropriate amplitude controls. The most difficult part is getting hold of log law potentiometers that track accurately.

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5. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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I know, just having a creative moment

Right on Kurt.

Throughout my 38 year career, quality built gear has always improved my business. I always learn something from my purchases and one of them is, I can't solder lol! . Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people that can build much, so I am at a loss. I have to buy everything I use. Kudo's to those with that skill.

Over the last 5 years hybrid summing and mastering , I'm trusting more and more in transformerless summing and mastering consoles as being choice because, I'd rather have choices to a wider pallet (character to transparent) through inserting outboard gear where it counts rather than having transformers in every part of your chain, subtracting HD sound while leaving a footprint that I was there. Versatility = more options, more opportunies.

I've asked Dangerous Music to chime in here and hopefully explain why some prefer transformerless designs at this stage of the game.

6. ### BoswellModeratorWell-Known Member

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Understood, but if you want to use M-S processing between your mix and your capture system you have to make some choices. Using two-phase (balanced) inputs to an M-S encoder means you can generate unbalanced M-S outputs purely by resistive summing. If your passive mix process gives you only an unbalanced (single-phase) output, you either need electronics (non-passive) or transformers to generate the required difference terms in the S equation.

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7. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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Benchmark results , what are the pro's an cons to either choice?

I like the idea of using pre-amps to add another colour! How cool does that sound! I mean, give it all to me but can I have it all while still keeping the path clean at the click of a switch?
The more ways to mash it up in a hybrid chain without degrading the better. But, I always want to have the core open and transparent because I don't want some tracks or stem or the master to be effected from transformers all the time. How can we get it all?

Here is another twist to this thread:

I'm a musician always trying new things, dreaming of how I can add some wild distortion. A few years ago (before I got the Neos) I contacted Justin (Folcrom) and asked if this was possible if I could incorporate the Folcrom with the MixDream / Dangerous Master combo.. Here is what he said:

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8. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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Simply for the continued interested of this awesome thread, and now specifically to do with the latest discussions on M/S,
I received a simple but confirmed explanation with a my question and reasons I choose the Dangerous Master M/S, Thanks Sean!

9. ### Kurt FosterWell-Known Member

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ya gotta love a guy who tells you why you don't need to buy something from him .......

10. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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Indeed. Which Bos has suggested to me more than once.

11. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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I'm going to kick myself for selling my MP 2NV. I have wanted to use the EQ 2NV coupled with the MP 2NV in the Dangerous Master to add character to that EQ. ( you need both GR products for this)

thus, insert the EQ into one of the 3 Dangerous Master inserts for tranny mojo. Which once again, what the DM or summing boxes in general excels at! Imagine putting a tube in the middle and tranny on the sides of a mix. Its pretty cool. And thats just a snip of what all this offers.

UA tubes and tranny vibe is my "Go To" mojo makers lately. They are so full of character, who needs anything more lol!
Which is why a cleaner and more open capture and summing solution that allows adding mojo further down the chain works well a lot of the time.
UA mojo can get extreme! I prefer to mix mojo rather than it forced upon me all the time.

I bet your Millennia Pre will rock too Kurt!

I like something that has the full deal rather than a tiny teaser too . Being able to parallel process mojo or insert distortion through a transparent mastering console, blend character specific to your needs while the entire chain is still transparent and open, is a super cool deal about hybrid audio and these summing boxes in general.

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12. ### Kurt FosterWell-Known Member

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it would be if i had 2 ....

13. ### audiokidChrisStaff

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right . I was thinking you had a pair all the time.

14. ### NaminActive Member

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This mix sounds huge...there is plenty of space around the vocals, I mean its just right there in the center. I am listening through my Se Munro Eggs. Beautiful song btw! Lovely made my day/night!

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