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Analog Summing Boxes ?

Discussion in 'Summing / Mastering consoles' started by Tommy osuna, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    Well we mix there with all the out board gear that he has all at the same time on most mixes

    Interesting this is I remember mixing with him before he got all the summing gear it sounded really good but different good

    You seem to be more technically capable then me could you look at his set up is so we can talk about this without me trying to explain what he has

    The smeaier sound from the nail I have not heard I have not got that impression in any of my listening from anything I've put audio thru there

    Cool thanks for your input
     
  2. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    Does this answer any of your questions on his equipment lists
    DAW: 48 in 48 out
    Apple Mac Pro 3.06GHz 12-core, 20gb Ram
    ProTools HDX
    Pro Tools HD 10 & 11
    Logic Pro 9
    Avid HD I/O 16×16 (x3) 48 in 48 out
    Avid SYNC HD
    Sync
    eMagic Unitor 8
    Avid MC Mix (8 Flying Faders)

    Inward Connections Discrete Stereo Bus Mixer (x2)

    Monitoring Systems:
    Grace Design m906
    Barefoot MicroMain27
    Yamaha NS-10
    Bryston 4B Power Amps
    Hafler Transelnova P3000

    Preamps & EQ’s:
    BAE Neve 1073 (x2)
    API 512C (x2)
    API 550 EQ (x2)
    Maag Audio EQ4 (x2)
    dbx 905 Parametric EQs (x5)
    Avalon 747sp Program Equalizer
    Inward Connections The Brat EQ (x2)
    Inward Connections Equalizer 820 (x2)
    Inward Connections DEQ-4P Dual 4-Band Parametric
    Summit Audio Dual Program Equalizer
    Tree Audio The Branch (Channel Strip) *available upon request

    Processing:
    Drawmer MX-50 Dual De-Esser (x2)
    Drawmer MX-40 Punch Gate
    Drawmer D S 201 Dual Gate (x2)
    Neve 33609 J/D Stereo Limiter/Compressor
    Tube-Tech CL-1A
    SPL Transient Designer
    Inward Connections TSL-3 Tube Limiter
    Inward Connections Modular Tube Limiter (x2)
    UREI 1176n Peak Limiter (blackface)
    UREI 1176ln Peak Limiter (silverface) (x2)
    Retro 176 Limiting Amplifier
    Smart Research C2 Stereo compressor/limiter

    FX:
    AMS RMX16
    Lexicon PCM70
    Lexicon PCM90
    Eventide H3500 Ultra-Harmonizer
    Yamaha REV-5
    Yamaha SPX90
    AccuVerb Spring Reverb (stereo)

    ISDN:
    Telos Zephyr Extreme
    Source Connect Pro
     
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    The gear posted is average pro audio . Standard stuff.

    Understandably, You and most pro studios using the round trip are caught in this process we all started back in the 90's. It was a cool idea but it's full of problems.

    The round trip has been pushed by the dated and dying studios grabbing for that last leg to stand on.

    Pro Audio is not an easy concept to grasp when you have reputable, yet very dated pro audio engineers sharing a work-flow on forums. No wonder these studios are doing the Round Trip and using a 10m to clock all this dated nonsense. And over on the side lines sits trusting newbies scratching their heads trying to read between the lines. Who do we trust? Its just easier to say, its all a preference so do what works for you. And so it continues.

    We don't need to agree but its pretty clear who the dated is. No one wants to hear their gear is dated and those who have invested money aren't easily transformed. They drag along a lot of baggage!
    Support of Purchase, Blind leading the Blind.
    What if we proved right now, the gear and way that studio mixes can be done just as good, better ITB for $10,000.

    Would anyone you know want to mix something in public (here) and take the chance to expose their reputation, to prove the mass of their analog gear means nothing in the big picture?
    To take it even further, most studios are actually smearing and degrading clients music through their backwards round trip concept. Its so obvious. Its not fooling me which is why I took the time to find out for myself. Its not the gear, its the guy behind the wheel. Once ITB, stay ITB.

    This topic is a highly subjective.
    You asked about summing boxes because you are questioning what?

    My guess is you heard something cool and are now excited to talk about it? You are interested in improving your music, you are excited to learn what others are doing. The question is, do you want to hear gear is the magic bullet or, the truth, that you need to forget all that and learn to mix ITB, better?

    Most of us over process ITB. We don't realize how little we need. ITB is notorious for accumulative distortion. It ramps up to an out-of-control train wreck faster than analog, which is really why old school prefers it. You can twist digital freq so recklessly like analog. It will actually do something!
    It's really easy to blame the daw, when it really is the user who is playing around with the mouse too much.

    Maybe you are thinking you want to invest in this and want to know what else works better?i say, don't waste your money or time.


    We don't have to agree. A great song is a great song.

    I'm excited to hear some mono examples. Until then, my words here are meaning less.
     
  4. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    I hear ya on the dying studios what's cool about toms place is 3 rooms full almost all the tume reason , he delivers the goods so he prefers the analog and digital

    Cool man thanks for all your insight I will stay in my path for now as I love the results maybe some day I can have you mix the same audio as I and see how that would turn out I'm sure both great just different :)
     
  5. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    I think that if I had all that OTB gear I'd be tempted to use it, but I don't
    What I concentrated at was to have the best tracking gear my limited budget allowed.
    Because for me, all the ITB or OTB gear won't fix a poorly recorded track nor create one. (vsti excluded of course)

    If the performance and capture is right, you just need, not to screw it up at the mix time ;)
     
    Big_D likes this.
  6. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    This wouldn't be a good A/B test since you both have your own way to mix. It will then become a mixing contest.

    I guess that Chris is telling us that he's been on a gear journey and he now realises he could do nearly everything ITB and we need to think about that before spending 500k in gear...
    We also have to consider that his years of experiences showed him what external gear can do and now he has a better understanding how to do it ITB.

    I say, do what is pleasing you and what gives you the sound you like.
    Keeping making music is all that counts !
     
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Not exactly Marco. I could without doubt prove something significant. The ideal way is for the owner of the song to do his best, then send me what they did and I out do it or get it done close enough that no one in there right mind would logically spend money on racks of gear or a mixing console again. Its over.

    It wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with personal levels, creative choices and such, it would be an obvious notice in "SPACE, CLARITY, and IMAGING if I did it". Being a better mixer or having racks of the best gear on the planet has nothing to gain which is my point here. I trust I understand why we are actually "wasting" our time hybrid mixing and feel we have finally reached the point of no return.
    Note, I still do a hybrid DANCE, just not with all the gear and steps I used to do.

    A very simple $10,000 hybrid system will rival a million dollar analog mixing or mastering system without doubt. In fact, the more gear you use in the hybrid lanes, and especially 2-bus stems, the less chance you have of taking it to the next level.
     
  8. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    Well I've been in the sane journey and like the hybrid way better ! Just an opinion
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I don't think quite the same way, otherwise you would be saving your pennies with improved sound.
    But, lets leave it at that. You asked and the manufacturers need to eat too.
    I use a different DAW than most and a process that saves thousands of dollars and guessing.
    You keep doing your thing, I'm sure your mixes sound fantastic! . Its all fun when you are having fun.
     
  10. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    I get it Chris, I hope you'll get the opportunity to make the demonstration.
     
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Thanks Marco, we're seeding for the harvest.
    I'm waiting for the perfect opportunity to make the 57 years at this life worth the investment; which will most likely never happen. I mean, who is ever going to put their studio and reputation online for us to kill it all ITB.
    To make it worth my time, it would have to be a crowd pleaser personality or a weeks wages. Which the way this industry is going, it will never happen . So, its just another day on the forums.
     
  12. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    I agree 10,000 with Hybrid now it's just what you want

    Spending my money I know how I'm spending it and your opinion is valid but not the way the audio works starts and stops it's an opinion which is fine we all have them

    Now let's go work on music out own way ! Were both seasoned enough to not worry about the small stuff
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    This looks cool too;

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM4I1-IyDxk#t=113
     
  14. Tommy osuna

    Tommy osuna Active Member

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    Nice peace the glue is good
     
  15. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Tommy, this is what I'm getting at, but its not what I use, but still cool. You sum back to the same DAW, yes? I don't. ;)
    This would be a good piece in your setup to check out too.

    I'd love this but it lacks the AD for monitoring.

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMOS1TEzEo



     
  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Here is my first hybrid system (Nail and Hammer) I used a MixDream summing amp. I just loved that box. Its the most complete transparent 16 channel box I think on the market. It has a Lundahl tranny option, but I prefer transparency over the tranny.

    sTUDIO4 004.JPG
     
  17. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Exactly why the Round Trip got started. It keeps gear in the loop but not without compromise. Its obvious there is bias and support of purchase thinking with this too.

    Here is something to think about. Its easy to twist analog pots further without obvious destruction. If you are coming from old school, where I came from, then moved to a DAW, you are going to trust old habits and emulate that ITB.

    One of the greatest lessons I've learned with my mastering hardware, less is more. The lower end stuff is more forgiving, sloppy. Meaning, you can twist those knobs a lot further. (another topic)

    What does this tell us about gear and the end user? What does this tell you about old school merging with modern methods?

    Compare that to ITB now. When you move something ITB, it moves exactly where you put it. When you move something in analog, it moves but its still a lot more forgiving. Working with analog gear is a treat and more forgiving. Working with digital is deadly accurate and not forgiving. Hybrid has helped me compare ITB vs OTB processes. Through that, I discovered I've been twisting digital knobs way too much.

    I'm assuming I'm not alone.
     
  18. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    I don't understand why people are so hung up on mixing with the "round trip" workflow... it's not like adding another uncoupled DAW to mix down to is all that expensive... and if it keeps the integrity of the sonics, why wouldn't you drop another $500 or so into a separate computer/DAW? Guys who are into hybrid spend a lot more than that on one single channel "whatever"...

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't using a decoupled DAW as your "mixdown deck" remove the expensive clocking from the chain? And why do guys insist on mixing back to the source DAW?

    Why is this so crucial to them?

    I'm not saying to not use hybrid as a mixing method... I'm saying I don't understand the obligation to mixing round trip, and why there is such a huge objection to mixing out to another separate DAW...
     
  19. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    I think it's a bit more expensive than that Donny.
    If I'd decide to do it, I'd buy a high end DA for my mixing DAW and a High end AD/interface for the uncoupled DAW. I would have to buy At least a good converter for the uncoupled DAW (assuming I already have one for the first DAW) then a computer, then the software and maybe a summing box.
    I might be wrong but to me it doesn't make sense to send the stereo mix of a DAW to another DAW. I'd rather use the mixdown or export fonction of the software.
    What may makes sense is to send seperate group/tracks to a summing box or a mixer, insert any outboard processing and then capture the stereo mix to a seperate DAW.
    Here's my question, I can understand that when I push play on my DAW, with the reading of the files and processing effects, some bits may be dropped and the quality may be degraded. But what happen with mixdown/export fonctions. Would the computer just take the time to compile everything or is there some risk of degradation as well?
     
  20. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    This is where Chris's experience comes into play. I haven't worked enough with hybrid to know, or to answer that question.

    My biggest question at this point is why so many hybrid users seem to insist on doing the round trip method...?

    The idea is to integrate analog with digital, right? I mean, that's the whole purpose... to do this method the right way is going to require a pretty serious budget; and if what Chris says is true, and that the round-trip method results in phasing/latency issues, aren't you kinda defeating the original purpose?

    So, yeah, you're probably right that a separate, uncoupled computer and I/O is more than $500. But, it seems to me that even if it was 2 thousand dollars, this is still a fairly paltry sum for those who have already invested up to $25k to set up a nice hybrid workflow.

    I would think that the added cost of a second DAW, with appropriate I/O and conversion, wouldn't be all that much in the grand scheme of things - considering that the round-trip users have already invested in hi-dollar clocking and conversion; all you really need to do is re-direct what they already have with those devices to a secondary computer, no?

    What am I missing? (Seriously, I'm not being a smart ass with that question... )
     
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