Analog Summing + Printing in other computer

Discussion in 'Summing / Mastering consoles' started by Víctor, Oct 1, 2018.

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  1. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    In a 2 DAW system.... Being able to independently monitor at each conversion location using something like a (Dangerous Monitor ST) is critical. http://dangerousmusic.com/product/monitor-st/

    If you are mixing OTB, incorporating analog gear then something like a Dangerous Master is a great setup as well because you can hard bypass gear and study the analog cause and effect step using two monitor outs.
    http://dangerousmusic.com/product/master/

    Notice how I am always talking about monitoring and listening.


    If you do not have the monitoring control process to do this, it’s not worth doing. Imho.
    It would also be difficult to fully understand why until you actually used and understood the complete system.

    Is it better? A very subjective answer.
    Sonically yes and no.
    Workflow ... yes and no.

    Is a digital grand piano any better than an acoustic grand piano? That is your answer.

    Question: What is the difference between a “2 box method” and a “2 DAW System”?
     
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  2. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Just to clarify... Mixing into a master has nothing to do with the art of mastering.
    The term mixing into a master only means you are mixing down using mastering tools (software or hardware). Pretty much everyone using a DAW mixes into a master bus.

    If I have a song worthy of hiring a “Mastering engineer ” ... I would send it to a Mastering Engineer.
    Note, I would still mix into a master and then send it to a Mastering Engineer.

    :)
     
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  3. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    so what you are doing is mixing in 2 stages. :love:

    the same can be done with one DAW and a stand alone recorder that will be usable for the foreseeable future for less than $1000 instead of spending that same money or more for what is essentially vapor ware (any DAW program) and a second DAW that will both become virtually useless in a few short years because of OS updates or lack of legacy support. :D
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    you are missing the entire concept.
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    that would be a “2 box method”. Use anything to capture a mix without src.

    DSD recorders would be my choice rather than tape or a second pc. But each to his own.

    :)
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    We only need one DAW which can do an entire production at world class level.

    traditional mixing consoles or tape is dead gone.
    Any talk of that is imho just a trend to fool people it sounds better. Gear and “mixing” consoles are dying and software is only getting better. Once itb stay itb.
    World class productions can all be recorded, mixed, mastered on a laptop. 100% ITB

    If I am using specialized hardware not available ITB examples: ( bricasti , pultec, la-2a) then I prefer two DAWs and more modern hybrid switching and monitoring equipment because they are designed to help you hear cause and effect better plus... I like getting into a mix far more that way .
    https://www.manley.com/legacy/mmbb/
     
  7. paulears

    paulears Well-Known Member

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    OT - a bit. Not being even a beginner in Mastering, I find one term very strange - "Printing" - I understand it was Protools who invented the usage, I just wonder why they picked it?
     
  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    i'm not saying it isn't done or it can't be done all itb but i am saying your proclamation that consoles and tape machines are a thing of the past is a bit premature.

    although i have retired, that doesn't mean i'm living in the past under a rock. i'm still learning and interested. there just aren't any paying clients where i live and i won't work for cheep or free like most the studios that come and go around here do. i don't roll that way.

    almost all the evidence i have seen recently tells me mixing consoles are still alive and well. if you go to You Tube and check out the latest AES videos, you will see consoles are making a comeback, especially for tracking.
    GalleryOrTestimonialAlexRichardson.jpg
    there are a ton of new smallish consoles of different flavors being made by companies like Tree Audio,

    AMS Neve isreissuing the BCM 10 updated with a 2 buss.
    ams_neve-bcm10-2-mk2-10-channel.jpg
    and Geoff Tanners Aurora has come out with a new modular mixing system. then there's Rupert Neve and Audient putting out quite a few new full blown LF consoles that are all over the U.S.

    Sphere has a new owner who is planning to reissue the Eclipse as the smaller Eclipse Alpha.

    IMG_3993-1024x818.jpg

    if i really tried i could come up with even more in just a few minutes. they aren't developing all that product for no one. there has to be a demand for it.

    one of your faves, Mark Ronson often works in studios that have consoles. He did Amy Winehouse at DapTone in NY. on a Trident 65. Bruno Mars's Uptown Funk was recorded at Royal on an MCI 500 and Ronson owns his own MCI 500 as well. get ready for the wild life! :ROFLMAO:

    videos i've seen of SIA and LSD show them in a studio with a LF console (i love Thunderclouds). Almost all the studios in Nashville still have consoles.

    almost every video i see on records being recorded, show them in a studio usually with either an API, Neve or an SSL. i can't think of one that shows them being recorded on a DAW itb except maybe some Rap and what they are calling R&B these days. Even Andrew Sheps videos show him in a studio in front of a LF console and i know he mix's itb, but i bet he tracks with a console.

    Mara machines is refurbing MCIs and ATR is doing refurbs on AMPEX'S. Tascam has reissued the 302 and i wouldn't be surprised if someone started to make new RTR analog tape machines in the near future. there is a demand for them. not everyone who wants to record is a computer geek. personally, i pretty much hate computers. i will never enjoy recording on a computer as much as i did on tape. i just like tape recorders. always have. lol.
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Kurt, I think you are getting console tracking very mixed up with console mixing. Anyone who uses an analog console (not a control surface) to mix in today’s world must be living under a rock lol.

    But if they say so... :whistle: good for them. I’d rather save my money and do it better itb.

    Imho, analog mixing and the concept of tape is a gimmick to entice business and nothing more.

    Each to his own.
    Why anyone would ever mix otb anymore is beyond me.
     
  10. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    i guess F. Reid Shippen and the rest of Nashville and about 2/3rds of L.A. / N.Y. all live under rocks then ...... :rolleyes: and he has a lot more hit records than all of us!

    apparently it is. computers are perfect for the internet and are decent platform to record on if you like sterile sound void of any character. not as good sounding as fat tape but still, it works.

    but i like using a mixer. a great LF console and a couple of tape machines are just so much fun. in the end, you can feel like you really did something other people can't. with computers it's all at your fingertips at the the touch of a button. everyone has the same plugs. everyone's music sounds t same-o same-o. that imo stifles creativity.

    i don't care for mixing with a mouse. i dislike staring at wave forms instead of listening to music. i don't like control surfaces. they are all toy like, tiny, flimsy and cheapo. i get distracted poking around on endless drop down menus.

    i laugh at the bullsh*t graphics like turning reels and analog VU meters employed to make you feel like really got something for that 500 bucks you just wasted on a time sensitive "compressor" or "tape emulation" plug ins that won't work on the next OS system when you are forced to "upgrade" to in order to maintain compatibility. i disdain plug ins (what a racket).

    i have never liked how itb summing and eq sounds. digital eq has a completely different sound than analog eq but a lot of people don't even realize it because they have no experience with it. yet these same pundits in their ignorance will argue endlessly how digital audio is better when they have never been within10 feet of a LF console or 2" tape machine for more that a few minutes for a photo op or to use them for more than few hours or even days. one needs to live with them for years to really understand the sound differences.

    i really hate all the security nonsense we are forced to deal with. i don't care a bit for digital as a storage medium. there are 75 year old analog tapes that still playback just fine thank you. try that with any digital medium. not all tape gets sticky and sheds. only AMPEX.

    i really hate how computers put a lot of different types of industries out of business. i don't care much for a lot of the new crop of recordists who really don't understand what they are doing and the bad music they produce. the loss of mentoring and apprenticeship / internship is one of the saddest losses. a lot of knowledge is being lost in the march "forward".

    most of all i intensely dislike the continuous cycle of upgrades and updates we are forced to deal with with computers. talk about marketing gimmicks. they get you on a computer and you are stuck going back to them every few years. imo the biggest mistake i ever made was selling my JH 636. i miss it. i also miss my K.Kawi 7 foot grand piano. if i could get any of it back it would be those two pieces. :cry:

    there are guys who are still driving their MCI 500's and SSL 4000's . that's at least 40 years of service on the same piece of equipment. you will never get that from any computer. computers are designed to be obsolete in a few years. it's a plan. talk about marketing. and then there's those like Larry Crane who went and purchased a new console .....

    anyhoo it's all opinion and we know what the man said about that ...... :ROFLMAO:

    please forgive the rant all, i must be upset with all the latest Trump nonsense. nothing new there! lol.
     
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  11. Víctor

    Víctor Active Member

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    Im doing electronic music with sample libraries. I have to put my studio setup again this weekend and try some things... (been off for 6 months and some health problems) ive been an ITB boy for nearly ten years, always making bounce for export the project (online bounce but still is a sh*t)

    Ive been talking with Chris Muth from Dangerous and im going to try again the route more obvious Daw> Orion32> 2-Bus+> Pure2... wich was my actually setup but couldn't make a second master bus for all summing tracks passing through there with some compressor, eq plugins etc at least to control my mix.

    So i really enjoyed analog summing, but after nearly ten years mixing with minimum a compressor in the bus it was a bit tricky to mix without nothing... it was fine but when i went to master my own track in another session, i ended up with a loudness a little bit smaller of what i wanted (yeah im in the loudness war but trying to preserva as much of the dynamic and the quality of the mix). Its something that it have to do with the input monitoring in Logic Pro X, wich hopefully I will check this weekend... so the thing is that, i need a second master bus for making a pre-master at least and control the peaks just to play just a bit in the ^#$%**g loudness war.

    I have a very powerful machine (not so powerful as in 2016) with an i7 skylake, and i don't have budget for another computer and another pair of high quallity converters. Im also working in the same SRC wich im exporting my final mixes. I have 2K more to waste and im going to get another 16ch of Dangerous summing.

    Laos ive done a lot of stem mastering ITB the last year, export the stems with a nice pre master second bus chain, and mix them and master them in another session. I have a lot of fun and i like it, but bounce ruin all the mix in which i worked so hard.... and I worked hard one day an another an another in the box... mixing ITB is not so "easy" as mixing OTB.

    BTW i work in the 80-90% with Acustica Audio convolution plugins, they have a sound very very nice... and thats the reason of my "powerful" computer... Ive got many of their Acqua plugins.

    Thank a lot guys for your inputs, and sorry for my english... is not the best :)

    Best regards,

    V.
     
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  12. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I would get a Dangerous Master before I would get another Dangerous Music 2bus. The Master is the key component you are missing. :)
     
  13. Víctor

    Víctor Active Member

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    No my friend... is too expensive and i don't own any outboard gear to use it.

    My next purchase maybe in a couple of years is going to be a Dangerous Compressor (yeah, im in love with DM stuff....), but I will insert it in the insert path of the 2-Bus+, so there is no need for a D. Master. Im only summing OTB, all the rest is ITB. But if I had an interminable budget of course I will have it :)

    I prever 32ch of summing, and the next 16ch are going to be of second hand btw...
     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Yes, me too.:love:

    Please share any comparisons with the 2bus in and without. I'd love to hear any improvements.
     
  15. Víctor

    Víctor Active Member

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    Maybe I understand you wrong... Comparision between Analog Summing with the 2-Bus+ VS In The Box ?
     
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  16. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    You read this on GS??!
    I’m surprised, considering that our pal (and fearless leader) Chris (@audiokid ) took such a boatload of CRAP from GS members several years ago, when he proposed the 2 DAW method over there.
    Bos ( @Boswell) and Chris are our resident 2 DAW method innovators and experts around here.
    I tried this workflow myself several years ago, using a friend’s laptop and a passive summing device; and I definitely heard a difference, most notably in the top end - but there was also a more defined low end too ( or at least that’s what I heard).
    I always wanted to incorporate the 2 DAW system as a permanent part of my workflow - not for mastering, but for mixdown.
    (RO member Thom Bethel ( @Thomas W. Bethel) is my go-to mastering engineer).
    I’ve just never had the second computer or analog summing device to do it.
    (But...that’s about to change very soon. Stay tuned... ;) )
    Just more proof that the real audio cats are here at RO.
    ;)
     
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  17. Víctor

    Víctor Active Member

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    Yes Donny, i read that at GS from AudioKid.

    The question is... why a better low end and high end? Is it something of the SRC? I think that yes, it is.

    So for me, actually working in 44.1 and not doing any SRC is the same.

    I hear my low and high end exactly the same when recording to the same DAW, but as i have said im in the same sample rate all the time.
     
  18. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

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    Well, you bring up solid points, but I don’t recall changing sample rates from one DAW to the other; and even if I had, it wouldn’t have really mattered, because I was coming out of the 1st DAW’s analog outs, into a dual channel analog pre, and then into the analog summing device’s in’s ... and then out of the summing device, to the 2nd DAW’s audio Interface (analog in).
    I suppose I could have had the first DAW’s Project SR at 96k, and then captured on the 2nd DAW at 44k if I wanted to; and maybe that would be the best thing to do, if I wanted to downsample for something like a Redbook format, as opposed to doing the SR conversion internally on the first DAW. Chris or Bos ( @audiokid @Boswell ) would know best on that.
    I think that a lot of what I heard, with what I perceived to be “smoother” hi’s and more “defined” low’s ...was likely due to the analog summing device doing its “thing”.
    I know the dual channel preamp I used ( I needed a pre because the summing unit was passive) was ultra clean (Grace), and wasn’t “adding” anything, (other than gain, to bring the signal up to line level).
    I always wanted to try this method with a two channel HW compressor in the chain, but because I didn’t own the summing device ( or the second computer) I wasn’t ever able to get around to it.
    ;)
     
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  19. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    It doesn't sound as though you have done the work of looking at past threads here on RO concerning the two-box method.

    A few links to get you started:
    One
    Two
    Three

    The link Two contains further links to the original discussions. I think it's worth 30 mins of your time to look through these, as there is a fair amount of background material on the two-box method that might influence the route you take.
     
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  20. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Yes! I'd love to hear what the 2bus does compared to ITB.
     

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