Analogue Console Options 15K or less

Discussion in 'Consoles / Control Surfaces' started by ChrisH, Jul 11, 2014.

  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

  1. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    there must be a problem in the way the console at your Playhouse is set up. these boards are notoriously quiet, like all faders up / no hiss quiet. either the operator is not gain staging properly or there is an issue with how the console is routed to the mains. noisy eq's? overuse of a drive rack? have you yourself ever run the thing? it's not inconceivable that a person running sound at a community Playhouse would not be well versed in the ART. i wouldn't make a hard judgement based on only that.



    VENICE 320
    Technical Specifications Input Impedance
    Mic: 2k&8486; Balanced
    Line: 20k&8486; Balanced
    Input Gain
    Mic: Continuously variable 0dB to +60dB
    Line (Mono Channel): Continuously variable -20dB to +40dB
    Line (Stereo Channel): Continuously variable -10dB to +20dB
    Line Level Inputs: 0dB
    Maximum Input Level
    Microphone and Line: +22dBu
    Line Level Inputs (Mono): +42dBu
    Line Level Inputs (Stereo): +22dBu
    CMR at 1kHz
    Mic (Gain +30dB): > 80dB
    Line: > 40dB
    CMR at 100Hz
    Mic (Gain +30dB): 70dB typical
    Frequency Response (20Hz-20kHz)
    Mic to Mix (Gain +60dB): + 0dB to -1dB
    Noise (20Hz-20kHz)
    Mic EIN ref. 150&8486; gain +60dB: -129dBu
    Mic EIN ref. 150&8486; gain 0dB: -107dBu
    System Noise (20Hz-20kHz)
    Summing Noise (12 channels routed faders down): -90dBu
    Line to Mix Noise (12 channels routet at 0dB): -84dBu
    Distortion at 1kHz
    Mic to Insert (+30dB Gain. +20dBu Output): Typ 00007%
    Mic to Master (+30dB Gain +20dBu Output): < 0009%
    Crosstalk at 1kHz
    Channel to Channel: < -80dB
    Mix to Mix: < -80dB
    Channel to Mix: < -80dB
    Fader Attenuation: > 100dB
    Switch Rejection: > 100dB
    Output Impedance
    Line Outputs: 75&8486; balanced
    Headphones: to drive 32&8486;
    Maximum Output Level
    Master Outputs: +25dBu
    Line Outputs: +22dBu
    Headphones: +22dBu / 600&8486;
    Nominal Signal Level
    Microphone: - 60dBu to 0dBu
    Line: 0dBu
    Equaliser Mono Channel
    Hi Pass Filter: 2nd order Butterworth 80Hz
    Treble: +/-15dB at 12kHz (Shelv)
    Hi Mid: Continuously variable 100Hz to 2kHz (1 Oct) +/-15dB
    Lo Mid: Continuously variable 400Hz to 8kHz (1 Oct) +/-15dB
    Bass: + /-15dB at 80Hz (Shelv)
    Equaliser Stereo Channel
    Treble: +/-15dB at 12kHz (Shelv)
    Hi Mid: 3kHz (14 Oct) +/-15dB
    Lo Mid: 300Hz (14 Oct) +/-15dB
    Bass: +/-15dB at 80Hz (Shelv)
    Size (mm/inch)
    Width: 906 / 35.7ô
    Depth: 568 / 22.4ô
    Height: 194 / 7.6ô
    Weight (kg/lb)
    258 / 56.9
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Could be Kurt. I've never looked through it at all. They ask me to do the occasional show when he's required for lighting. His thing is actually lighting so there you go. A recent show I tapped into a couple of bus's to record and it was pretty noisy. I had to ask him a few times to see if we could deal with the gain settings because the feed was hissing so much. We got it better but I thought it was noisy.

    I had a hell of a time seeing my way around it too. The colours and tiny knobs just don't do it for me. A few times I was in a panic to get onto it fast and I couldn't see the bloody mute or EQ fast enough for my style. I'm sure I would get used to it over time but for a guy just coming in, I found it really crammed.

    It does look very well made though. The sound of the PA is very good.

    ya, that is pretty impressive.

    They have been thinking of selling that to get something bigger. hmm
     
  3. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    anything under 1500 US would be a deal!
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Speaking of Rails, ?
     
  5. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    it has an internal power supply so that may be a weak link ... ??? it is set up to run world wide 320- 240 -110 - 100 volts.

    here's an owners manual online ;

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http://support.sapir.ac.il/files/2012/05/Midas_Venice_Manual.pdf&ei=-xnGU-nJJMaJjAKIzIDADg&usg=AFQjCNEbyP2e_0JbyU5hRayViSrpT2MYHA&bvm=bv.71126742,d.cGE
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    The noise sounded like the power supply was included
     
  7. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Location:
    Iowa
    Strictly for tracking and mixing.

    Lots of good being said about the venice, but no automation? :/

    I agree with the EQ statement, that's my main reason for getting an analog console.
    The tofts look nice but I've heard equal negative as I've heard positive, and again there's no automation, so I'd basically just being using it just for eq and summing.

    All genres, rock, hip-hop, jazz, country, blues.
    Gain staging is paramount.

    I wonder what the new Trident 88 console will sale for?
    And why doesn't it have automation?? Why is automation even an option on todays consoles?
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Man, I would completely forget about automation on the console. Use your DAW for all that, it rocks! (y) Use the Console for analog vibe and summing but feed the DAW into it.
    I mix ITB and just slightly tweak OTB when it comes to faders. You'll be using analog EQing and very little faders if you are smart.
    My gawd, the only thing a console will do better than the DAW today is how it plays with the transients and sums it together. Its an added way to create space and insert hardware " hardware that serves you well". Not a bunch of 500 series wall wart stuff either. Think straightt wire, big headroom, digital patchbay, analog eqing and a mastering section with a monitor section that is so transparent you will notice everything you change start to finish.
    I really think the whole idea a console is going to replace the DAW "what it does exceptionally well" is ridiculous and absolutely completely backwards. Automation is the best part of a DAW!

    Invest in Sequoia / a great mastering suite, get a console with killer rails, great EQ's and the ability to accept dsubs in 8 channels lanes at a time.
    Connect all your hardware through a good patch system (SSL Xpatches or Dangerous Liaison, Manley or something special) and you will be doing cartwheels. Less is more.
    To go ever further, plan on getting a deadly mastering matrix of some kind that connects after the console's master out! Thats where it really starts happening! Invest in a few extra finishing tools and great front end stuff like LA2A's, Pultecs, 1176's and big ass preamps for the special sections of your songs you want to shine through. Think wide and deep and external effects like one Bricasti. Learn about mid and side processing. Ooo la la!
    Find a way to capture it all on a mixdown system. You are way better off doing it that way over investing in some flying fader problem and a mid level console steering you in yesteryear reverse and back to the same box.

    If I found anything that rivaled the NEOS for summing I would be amazed. But, I do want a console just for the EQ section and some extra steps on occasion but I definitely know all the thousands I have spent have gone in the right place. Think MS section after the console. :love:

    Generally speaking, its hard to believe FF is where the attention is going. I see that as nothing but a problem, which is far from precise and destined to break down.
    EQ automation, now that would be cool, but lets start talking $8000 for 2 channels at a time which is still best spent in the MS section after the console.

    KISS.

    Forget the FF imho. Nothing but a carrot.

    regards,
     
  9. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Location:
    Iowa
    Okay okay, if you say so! I trust you.

    I can't find a single Audiotronics 501.

    My options are basically a Toft ATB or a Midas Venice, right?
    Anyone compared these back to back?

    Anything great in this price range that I can get transformer coupled ins and outs? Besides the Audiotronics 501
     
  10. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    hehe, I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg but its all fun ;)

    Remember, my analog game is focused around the summing end, which is where the DAW sucks.

    example: NEOS has 120v rails, 24 channels, mute ,mastering, solo, panning, 100m faders.


    An EQ section would be sweet but, your DAW (a good one) gets mass done already, then external hardware in the mastering section is really ideal as I described for various reasons. A few Pultecs, SS EQ goes a long way.
    Once you go this route, you soon see /"hear" the money people are imho wasting and sonically smearing up their mix. I am so convinced, "less is more" has way more impact than too much that we never really need in the lanes. What's wrong with your DAW EQ for the basic tweaks? I love my DAW.

    That being said, I would still love to have a console on my front end to add to this system but it would never replace the killer sound I get from the "same" hardware I can multitask for recording, mixing and mastering. I can use everything I have on the front end, for the mix and master too.

    Digital patchbays make instant on the fly switching possible. And they are clean!

    I'm not trying to sell anyone on this, just saying what I do and would do exactly again. So, if I had first choice, it would again be the NEOS or some other high headroom (transparent) summing box. Before that I used the MixDream and it was awesome too! This workflow tunes me closer to hybrid mastering quality.

    The day I strap on a console, I will hear where it shines or smears the summing and master instantly. If I went the other way first (during my hybrid learning curve) I seriously doubt I would have had near the knowledge I have now. I am embracing and learning what parts of both systems do best and building a system around this rather than blinding following old school ideas that analog is better or the DAW is the ultimate. They both have there strengths and weaknesses. In ten years do we seriously think people are going to be using some archaic console? Think console as a router and way to integrate hardware in and out of your DAW. And, how it won't break what the DAW or and analog does well.

    Its too much to explain it all. My idea is to use great gear more proficiently.

    Regarding extra channels. The last 8 channels that the NEOS doesn't have in my 32 ADDA does not go unused!

    Remember - 8 lanes of a 32 channel converter can still accept inserts from hardware (front end or back end access). A digital patchbay is the ultimate for hardware effects and inserts from front end tracking. ADDA is realestate for effects that need nothing but a lane. These lanes are perfect for tracking and aux effects like extrenal Bricastis, Eventides, Guitar effects ...

    Hybrid like this is not about sacrifice, its learning how to connect it all and then optimization it with the straightest wire and never loosing the ability to recal it via the beauty of your DAW, Midi and digital patchbays.

    I could go on, which I don't want to do. Its hard not to talk about it though.

    Here is how I hear it.
    DAW's Rock for most everything but summing.

    So, look at what I do and you will see my system is all about different ways to sum a mix.
    The beauty of this, I can also track with all I use to mix or master.

    If you need 32 channels of Pre's going in, then, thats where you start.
    I don't need that many so here is my front end.

    I have 14 channels of high end mic pre's that are my varies flavours for drums, Vox, acoustic capture. . I don't EQ going in but I definitely use hardware LA2A and 1176 going in. Nothing comes close to the sound of a vocal going into an LA2A /1176 front end. If you haven't experienced the real deal, your are missing the Pro Audio bomb.
    It cannot be emulated ITB or mixed with the same results after the capture. I do however, use those same LA2A's etc for mixing and mastering.

    All being said,

    The AH 24 Bos has spotted looks really awesome too. If I could get what I have and more all in one console for 15K, I would be amazed.

    I think the next generation of consoles are just starting to kick in. What ever they are, they should be something like my Neos with maybe some selectable mono channels and EQ's.
    However, Sequoia 13 is slated to have mono bus' so...
    The console I really want, is the NEOS as its DAW summing being the problem.
     
  11. ChrisH

    ChrisH Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Location:
    Iowa
    Wow, what an eye opener, thank you Chris.
     
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  12. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Home Page:
    You said you wanted new or used w no issues, and I can't really see many other options. After getting a trident 24 used then spending a couple thousand upgrading things, we re still tracking down problems. It sounds amazing, but, isn't transformer based pres. So while you can get a lot more board for the money used, you have to figure in maintenance. I've never heard anything bad about the Venice, and live stuff is usually pretty rugged, but, the big question is how well was it taken care of. So just be careful.

    IMHO I would doubt an atb is actually 6k better in performance than a decent Venice. If it were me I'd get a Venice and some premium eqs and compressors. Lol I've tracked thru Mackies before and been fine. A few people around here heard the stuff and thought it was ok. I think the atbs got off to a bad start, but I know someone who frequently works on one and doesn't own it, and speaks highly of it. He is a gear snob lol. But he likes the the eq has a selectable low bell/shelf, and possibly selectable frequency if I remember correctly, which would be 100( the original trident freq) and 80hz. Dave one of the mods here, loves his for drums, maybe worth asking him if your seriously considering one.

    Im still convinced that a company who comes out w a truly professional mid size tracking recording console will strike gold. Like if the API box was a tracking/mix console. That 15-20k budget is where most average studios are at for a console, if they're lucky, even 10, a manufacturer should be able to put out a decent product.
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2001
    Location:
    Sunny & warm NC
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    I've hammered on almost every medium sized format console for live work, and quite a few large formats... The Venice is serviceable, and a hell of a lot of solid console for the dosh.

    The ORIGINAL ATB's were either really good, or really mediocre. The one's I've put hands on were all nice consoles. A good value for what they are...

    But neither of them compare to some of the large format consoles that can be had in that 10k-15k range... XL's, H3k's, Verona's, Legend's, Paragon's...
     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
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    Hey Max, I'm curious why after all these years are you now thinking about a console? What's changed your mind? Whats missing or where are you hoping to benefit?
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2001
    Location:
    Sunny & warm NC
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    After all these years?!?!?
    Pardon me... but... Huh?!?

    The ONLY reason I went with the SloStools rig w/Icon, was because I ran out of cash building this money pit. Otherwise, I would have gotten SloStools and a Trident A-Range or a Daking 8 bus. The 1608 was new, and there were a few too many issues for the bloodletting of sheckels.

    As for what changed my mind?!?!? I never have changed my mind, and have never liked 100% ITB... never have, never will. I prefer to use DAW's for storage and editing... after that... gimme iron babe.
     
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  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
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    Although I agree, I am the opposite in regards to thinking a DAW is just for storage today. I once thought that to be gospel but no more.
     
  17. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts
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    It's remarkable to me that some engineers haven't changed the way they work thru technology, and others are right up to date, and yet both styles still sit up at the top. I think were gonna start to see a bigger separation between home studio and professional studio, and people are gonna to start to understand the merits of hardware mixing, and good monitoring.
     
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  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Cream is rising.
     
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  19. Davedog

    Davedog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    I'm currently looking at sidecars for everything. I have an ATB8 which I've owned for a while now and recorded several productions through. It seems to work just fine for what I use it for. I have a friend with a mint condition, last model, Hill Multi-mix which for the money will make a nice set of pres and that odd shelving but very musical EQ they used. I think it becomes overflow preamps or even outboard sub-mixer since it has direct outs. Its 12X12X4X2. Cant beat it for the price. I've worked live on Midas, Soundcrafts, Crests, Tascams, Yamahas and A&H's. I own a GL3 A&H, Soundcraft E12, Toft ATB8, and have in recent years spent uncountable hours on a Ghost. Its funny....the prices on medium sized, mid range consoles dropped dramatically a few years back. Now they are creeping back up as small studios, home-based and commercial rooms are starting to "get" why having a centerpiece in the room is a good thing. I've owned a Yamaha PM1000. Not a recording board except when altered but its transformer city under the hood. I don't recommend the Ghost unless you rebuild the master section.

    So depending on your work flow, what a console can give you can be a good use of space and money or it can simply be an albatross taking up real estate and sucking down the amperes with no return for your buck.

    If I had the place and the money I would definately buy a smaller footprint large format console. If you have enough outboard pres and good patch bays then you'll never need much more than 16 channels for any tracking session. Especially into a DAW as your capture machinery. My room allows me to do 24 at a time and with my low numbers of square footage, its more than enough. Actually gives me the ability to really choose the right pre for the business at hand.
     
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  20. MadMax

    MadMax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2001
    Location:
    Sunny & warm NC
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    This is said somewhat tongue in cheek, but life is kinda' funny... you (collectively) young cats think there's some mass awakening to why there are professional studios... with all us old hasbeen geezer's saying... " 'bout damn time."

    The recording arts are extremely new in the grand scheme of things... and it grew about because of the ultimate desire the analog phenomena we call music and spoken word, to be preserved for eternity and to be shared and enjoyed and experienced.

    What so few people actually know any more, is what a real performance experience is.

    In the case of digital, the desire for a more stable and smaller storage medium is what the initial goal was. Editing came afterwards... just as razor blades and cutting blocks came after tape recording devices.

    But regardless of storage medium, the bottom line is that when the rubber hits the road, one still must face the reality that our ears are an analog device... with the analog human brain processing that analog world. Digital by shear nature is imperfect... just as analog is, as well. But either medium gets us fairly close to a convincing replication of the initial captured signal.
     
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  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

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