And a BIG negative...chips aren't powerul enough

Discussion in 'Microphones (live or studio)' started by ckevperry, Jan 28, 2002.

  1. ckevperry

    ckevperry Active Member

    Nov 7, 2001
    This is from waves...

    "Q: Do Waves plugins need to be updated only to run at higher sample rates?

    A: Higher sample rates is the problem, PT HD doubled the sample rate but not the DSP power so any plug in taking more then 50% on your current mix will not work under 96KHZ on the new HD."

    So no c4 at 96k folks!

    If I remember correct, the new chips are 20% more powerful. Think about it....BF pultec takes 50% of the mix chips, meaning you will only get ONE MONO INSTANCE PER CHIP on HD at 96k! Same with the Sony eq!

    Or even take the BF 1176 or LA2A....they take 33% of a mix chip. Since the dsp requirements double at 96/88k then with the only 20% stronger chip, you still only get ONE instance per chip!!

    Reverbs have the downsampling workaround, thats how they are able to fit on one chip at 96k (coz they are really at 48k internally)

    If I am wrong in assuming the rest of these plugin forecasts someone please tell me....But the Waves stuff is right from them..."any plug in taking more then 50% on your current mix will not work under 96KHZ on the new HD"...from which one can deduct that many plugins that are close to the 50% mark will only get one instance per chip.
  2. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Active Member

    Oct 12, 2000
    Hi Kevin,

    It's true in theory what you say but may not be true in practise. It all comes down to exactly what computations and how the plugins are coded. Although the chips are only 20% faster they also have a greatly enhanced RAM cache. So depending on the plug's original coding and the revised coding for PT|HD, it is possible that in practise some plugs may use only a little more of a DSP at 96k than they do currently on a mix+ system at 48k. Also of course there are 9 DSPs per card on a PT|HD system as opposed to the 6 on mix cards.

    This is not entirely accurate. Firtly no plug, regardless of whether it takes more than 50% of a current mix chip or not, will work on a PT|HD system. All plugs will need at least a little re-coding. Secondly, those plugs that currently use more than 50% of a chip will have to have a more serious re-coding so that they can still operate within a single DSP in PT|HD at 96kS/s.

    In the real world I eventually expect to see pretty much all of the plugs that work under mix+ to work under HD. Even the ones like PitchBlender.

    AFAIK, only the Reverb One does this. Bear in mind that this plug only downsamples the actual reflections, the direct source is left untouched at 96kS/s.

    I don't believe a word of it. In fact if you look at the new "Masters Bundle" you will see a new C4 (Linear Phase Multiband) that will soon run on HD. In theory if it is pretty much the same as the C4 you may actually be able to run more of them at 96kS/s per card than you can on a mix card at 48k. This is because, if I remember correctly the C4 would only run on an "A" type chip; all chips on the HD cards are "A" type, whereas there were only 3 "A" type chips on a mix card.

    Once the dust has settled, I think all the best plugs will still be there and that we will have roughly similar processing at 96kS/s as we do at 48kS/s on a mix system. It's also worth bearing in mind that although most of the more DSP hungry plugs will be re-coded to work at higher sample rates, I doubt they can squeeze in the coding to handle 192kS/s. So don't be surprised to see a 96kS/s limit on the bigger plugs.

  3. ckevperry

    ckevperry Active Member

    Nov 7, 2001
    I thought about all your points there Greg, and I am hopeful that they are correct too. But the quote was straight from the mouth of waves about their plugins. I am very curious about their new eq and C5 on HD as they have to be dsp intensive....and the C4 already hits 88% on a mix chip.

    But this was a big enough discovery/blow to make my HD plans come to a screeching halt until I get some definitive plugin count numbers. We need the old charts back like Digi always supplied.

    Think about the mixer plugin...track count cuts in half everytime you double the sample rate...coz it takes twice the DSP. You gotta admit that if this holds true for plugins and the developers can't recode without sacrificing's gonna suck.

    I'm gonna head up to the localPT dealer and check out their HD system today....I'll report back.
  4. Greg Malcangi

    Greg Malcangi Active Member

    Oct 12, 2000
    Hi Kevin,

    But it doesn't hold true. It all depends on what the plug is trying to do and how it is trying to do it. It's true that some developers may have to sacrifice some aspect of quality to get their plugs to work at 96kS/s but it's all relative. In general I expect that plugs are going to sound better at 96kS/s than at 48kS/s even if some sacrifices have been made.

    It's all very well to theorize but we won't get the full picture until we are actually able to hear what PT|HD sounds like with our favorite plugs. Time will tell but I'm personally more excited than apprehensive.

  5. stedel

    stedel Guest

    Yeah me too. There are Pro Tools posts all over the place currently up here so I'll repeat myself.
    It's nice to see positive posts re the new HD system.
    Have people noted the pricing of Digi's new stuff?
    Compared to the rumours that were going around, they've done a pretty good job - more features, better specs,..comparitively lower price. If their converters alone are worth the price of admission
    then there's hope for the rest of the system. I mean we could have gone the other way. Checked out Digi's high end competition lately? Wottabout the Euphonix FC727 unit? Jeez it's all yours for a measly (Aust) $64,995!!!
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