Do you download music? (from sites like napster)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by audiokid, Sep 18, 2003.

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  1. pmolsonmus

    pmolsonmus Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I just reread my post and want to make it a little more clear - I make the copy of MY purchased recording and LOAN out the copy to the student for them to listen to and return. I don't give them copies or even have them make copies, although many eye my duplicator with $ signs in their eyes. I get asked at least a few times a week if they can borrow my machine, but I've maintained a very strict hands off policy with them. Their ethics are often quite slippery.
    Who'd a thunk, teenagers with loose morale fiber? :eek:
     
  2. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Active Member

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    Who'd a thunk, teenagers with loose morale fiber?


    LMAO............ ;)
     
  3. falkon2

    falkon2 Well-Known Member

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    Heh, Kurt, just to clarify one of my opinions here.

    Bad music == sales go down
    Sales go down not necessarily == primarily because of downloading

    also

    Bad music not == causing piracy.

    I'm not saying that generic sounding crap and piracy are related. I'm saying that both are (unrelated) factors contributing to the decline of sales; and that the... genericness and blandness... of the music is sometimes totally overlooked because RIAA had the preemptive strike of pointing all eight fingers hard at piracy and crying foul play.
     
  4. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    77 Sunset Lane.
    I think there may be other factors that come into play as far as CD sales. The record companies are complaining about mostly the past 3 years and the whole economy has been in the dumper for this whole period. Less discretionary spending. There is also a lot more free entertainment on the TeeVee not to mention with home theaters HDTV and surround sound the whole home entertainment experience is getting better each day. This has to impact record sales.

    I agree that the quality of the acts could use a boost but the whole music scene has splintered so much in the past 10 years that one persons "best record ever" is sh*t to a lot of other folks. I personally hate most RAP, Metal / Heavy music and almost any kind of electronica – trance / dance but that doesn't mean that it is not of value, it only means it is not my cup o' tea.

    So what is the answer? There may not be one. Things are different these days than they were in the past. Perhaps the best thing would be to let the music industry as we know it, collapse upon its self. Then it could all start from scratch. With the loss of the originals like Johnny Cash and Sam Phillips in the past month who will take their places?

    Record companies were, in the fifties and even sixties for the most part, small operations with opportunities available for almost anyone. A guy like Sam Phillips could cut a record and then physically take it around to all the local radio stations to coerce, cajole, and bribe the Dee Jays to play it. Now days just try to find a local radio station. It's the digital age my friends. A new dawn has come with a new way of doing business. I think the solution lies somewhere in the record companies embracing this new technology, instead of trying to fight a losing battle.
     
  5. jroberts

    jroberts Guest

    Do you guys realize that in many countries in the world a fee is charged on each blank CDR purchased and that the fee goes to pay copyright holders for the music that is presumably going to be copied onto those CDR's? In those countries, copying and downloading music for personal use is perfectly legal and copyright holders get compensated.

    So, there *are* alternatives. Suing 12-year-olds or putting them in jail isn't the only solution.
     
  6. TheRealWaldo

    TheRealWaldo Guest

    1) DOWNLOADING IS NOT ILLEGAL (Have to place emphasis on this, as it's a nasty misconception that affects us all negatively)

    2) P2P Applications are NOT illegal

    3) Only the act of copying/distributing copyright material that one does not have permission to is illegal activity.

    4) Artists place their material on the internet to be download and shared REGULARLY. Typically, these artists are independent. The major industry would have this made illegal, as they do not profit from it. The indie artist sees it as a great tool for exposure, and use it regularly.

    Those of you who say you have not, and never do download, are quite frankly fibbing! You do all the time, and legally! It's no different than listening to the radio, or turning on the TV.

    As far as those who are copying/distributing copyright works without permission, you're thieves!

    W.
     
  7. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Active Member

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    Well - those of us really concerned with this don't live in those countries - so here - it's stealing - plain and simple - and until the laws change - it will remain so..........

    Waldo - understood - my concern is the illegal deal......... :D

    JR - as i said before - i don't like what is being done - it shows how really weak the RIAA is - they can't go for the meat - so they chase potatoes.......... they are generating about 1500 a pop from Moms and Dads - because they M&P's can't afford to fight them - easy pickings these people.... although ultimately they are responsible for the actions of their children.......

    But it is still not legal.... no matter how i despise what they're doing - i don't believe in Robin Hood..........

    Rod

    Rod
     
  8. jroberts

    jroberts Guest

    As I understand it, the owner of this board (who is the guy who asked the question in the first place) lives in one of those countries. So does TheRealWaldo.
     
  9. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    What the RIAA is doing is about the same thing the government does with drugs. They are going after and punishing the end users, hoping to affect the demand. As we have all witnessed, this approach doesn't seem to be effective. I didn't know the RIAA has instituted a "tax" on blank CDr media. I know they tried to do this with DATs and in a way I sort of think this is a good thing for consumer use but not for pros who are generating original material. The rub lies within how they distribute these funds. I think they do it more or less like BMI does it, which is to dole the cash out to the big players while the little guy like me never sees a cent, even though I have records that are available in Tower and at Amazon dot com, world wide. Now I not complaining about not getting anything from the RIAA but I am saying it is more of the same. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. It seems there would be more equity to the situation but I imagine that the expense of doing all the book keeping is prohibitive.

    I personally have no bone with services like NWR that provide an outlet for the independent producer to show or market their wares and I have to say that W. does a good job of policing his site for copyrighted material, but I do think that downloading commercially available, copyrighted and published works is ethically wrong.

    But prohibition is not the answer. What will work better is peer pressure. If every time a kid plays a CD he downloaded for free off the net he gets told he is a thief and he has done something wrong I feel at some point this will all become a non issue. This is a moral issue more than anything else. But like drugs and alcohol, you can't legislate morals, you have to instill them.
     
  10. jroberts

    jroberts Guest

    The RIAA didn't institute it. Various governments have. And I think there are usually exemptions for pro users.

    My point is just that there are other potential solutions to the problem. The automatic answer here in the U.S. anytime somebody is being wronged is to sue or put somebody in jail. Let's be a little more creative than that. Let's look at what others are doing and perhaps learn something.
     
  11. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    As far as the blank DAT tax, the RIAA was the main instigator in the attempt to get that legislation approved in the early 90’s. I suspect that if we were to ever see something like that for blank CDrs in the U.S., the RIAA would be the ones driving that too. But that still wouldn’t address the issue of when an individual D loads something to their hard drive and then shares it with the whole world. I think there should be a charge billed by the site or perhaps the ISP for downloads of copyrighted material that contains some type of a digital “copyright flag”. D load a Beatle song, you get a billing on an established account or maybe your credit card is charged. No credit card or account? No download!

    I agree that solutions other than suing, incarcerating or fining individuals should be explored but on the other hand, there needs to be some teeth that come back and bite one on the ass for engaging in rampant file sharing.

    Complaints that CDs are too expensive just don’t wash with me. It seems we have come to a point that everyone expects to have all things without the associated costs. Especially things related to entertainment. I don’t see anyone complaining about the cost of autos even though they are a lot more expensive than they were when I was a kid. In the 60’s a new Chevy or Ford sedan cost about $2500! And we all know “they don’t build them like they used to”. Does this mean it’s ok to go out and steal one now because they are built cheaper and cost 35 grand??? I don’t think so.
     
  12. jroberts

    jroberts Guest

    Some info:

    http://techcentralstation.com/081803C.html
     
  13. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    That is some good stuff JR. The suggested solution seems to be a good one. But what about producers of original uncopyrighted material (home and professional producers of music)? Why should they be compelled to pay a tax on blank media? That is the main problem I have with that approach. It is the same issue I had with the RIAAs wanting to tax DATs in the early 90's.

    I also found it interesting that at the bottom of that page there's a hyperlink labeled "click for reprint permission" ... it seems the publisher of that article is interested in protecting their copyright of their intellectual materials.
     
  14. pmolsonmus

    pmolsonmus Well-Known Member

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    Wisconsin
    Kurt,
    Your solo act seems to need a figure 8 mic :D
    How can you complain about a tax on blank CDRs and in your previous post claims:

    Now, while I don't disagree with your basic premise and really appreciated jr's link (everybody should read it - it makes some great points) You can't really point fingers at people who complain about the costs of recorded CDs and then complain about the costs of blank Cds for your business/hobby. If it costs your business $, do what everybody else does - pass it on down the line. The consumer consumes. Is it right? ethical? unfair? taxation w/out representation? probably all of the above. Wanna hold a party in Boston harbor? :D
     
  15. AudioGaff

    AudioGaff Well-Known Member

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    Feb 23, 2001
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    There is a tax for blank CD's. These being audio specific CD-R's. People just get around it by buying and using computer data CD-R's for audio. And that tax still applies for blank cassettes as the RIAA claimed doom over copying records to cassettes in the 80's.
     
  16. TheRealWaldo

    TheRealWaldo Guest

    All material is copyrighted the moment it is created. This includes that which is made by home recordists.

    W.
     
  17. jdsdj98

    jdsdj98 Active Member

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    Denver, CO
    Warning: Unauthorized reproduction of this recording is prohibited by Federal law and subject to criminal prosecution.

    It's on every commercially available CD you've ever bought. Can't argue with that. Can't blame someone for finally making good on it, at least from a legal standpoint.

    File sharing of others' intellectual property is undeniably illegal. Whether the RIAA is making the right move or not from a PR standpoint is not the issue. The fact is that it has every legal leg to stand on to do so based on that fine print.
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Hi all, I put (napster) as an example here because I was hoping we would see the difference from actual selfpromotion or stealing copyrighted music. Sorry I'm not the best writer at times so I blame myself for the miss interpretation. My question was nothing to do with musicians sharing their work online. I'm wondering if anyone here downloads "© music"? What other sites are like Napster? I would imagine that a site like RO would not be the best place to ask this because we are a closely effected by this in some way or another right? However, some of you don't think so. Man, I sure think it's effecting the cash flow.

    From this I plan on finding a large forum out there and asking this same question sometime to get a more "non bias" discussion happening and possibly beginning to educate the public from it. It all starts by effort. Everyones comments now will help me or us better prepare for the mission I'm on which is... downloading © music and sharing it.

    I can say I have never downloaded one song from sites like napster. I don't even know how it works. That doesn't make me perfect though. I'm just currious because I have friends that do it all the time. Because my community here knows I'm a "internet guy" People ask me to do it for them that want songs for a wedding as an example. They say, "It's on the net, can you find it and change a few things for our wedding Chris?" I'm wondering all the time what's happening to the music business and if people know the impact this is having on it all. I think its a very big problem.
    I do love the music out there, even the songs that a lot of my friends think is crap. I love electronic music and technology. Technology has given me the power to harness the deep sounds in my mind. Without that i would never know what I know I'm capable of today. Music is heading in a very interesting direction. I'm loving it but I see a tough road ahead if ya want to make real money at it. I think if we all talked about it more we might get a better handle on it. Better prepared and less mistakes. Maybe we are sitting on a gem.
     
  19. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    I do just that as most others do also. And if I am going to copy a Beatle album to a CDr I have no problem paying the "tax" to the RIAA or other governing bodies. But when I am recording original material having to pay this tax, as you pointed out, amounts to "taxation without representation". It's like paying for a carnival ride that you never take. I think there should be a source for producers of original materials to purchase media tax free. I don't see why RIAA and the record companies should be paid for essentially nothing. I don't have any problem with them getting what they deserve but I don't see why they should reap a "windfall profit" for no reason. This is exactly the kind of issues that make people feel justified when they download music. The solution should be fair to all.
     
  20. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Active Member

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    Waldo,

    That may be true in Canada, but is not true in the USA...

    However - in the good old USA it is automatically copyrighted the minute it is in TANGIBLE FORM,

    The following is taken directly from the US Copyright Office (i wonder if it's copyrighted?)

    § 102. Subject matter of copyright: In general:

    (a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.


    So it has to be in some form or another "tangible".

    For a song that would mean either recorded - or written AND scored..... otherwise the written words become copyrighted (as a poem would) but the arrangement (as a whole) does not.

    If someone else were to take an arrangement that you made - but that you had not committed to tangible form - and they stole it from you - you really have no copyright - thus no protection.

    Rod
     

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