Flat Drum Sounds

Discussion in 'Drums' started by davemoore, Apr 17, 2005.

  1. J-MADD

    J-MADD Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Location:
    Missouri
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    Gotta say I disagree. Like I said I noticed a night and day difference on the same set with the same mics placed in the same positions between my good preamp and the factory preamps on the Korg. It adds fullness. I know you can get good quality without great preamps, but all other things being equal the recording chain with higher end preamps will sounder bigger.

    Justin
     
  2. Randyman...

    Randyman... Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2003
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    ^
    But it is not going to make the toms louder if they are not played as hard as the snare; and the cymbals quieter if they are still being bashed...

    You can help, but not "fix" this with engineering IMO. 23 years of playing drums, and I still struggle. Some players will just sound perfectly balanced with one mic in front of the kit. Not I :(

    I agree with Steve to a good extent, but good equipment certainly has its place (good equipment belongs with with equally good players - which are MUCH harder to find AND afford than good gear IMO)... Good players in good rooms lend more simplistic micing techniques with superior results. It is a fact of life. Extreme DAW processing and sample replacement are everywhere now-a-days to compensate for these drummers like me :wink:

    :cool:
     
  3. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    If have the time to email them to me, I'd love to play with your raw tracks. Even 30 seconds would be fine. I'd need individual, non-processed tracks. This way I could tell you exactly what you could do to improve them.
     
  4. Twood

    Twood Active Member

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    Feb 19, 2005
    Location:
    Norway
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    That would be interresting, to hear what really could be done with the original drumtracks by someone who has the right equipment/knowledge.

    THeBLueROom, if u get a chance to fiddle around with the tracks, U got to tell us exacly what you have done with them.. This is a great chance, for those of us who is not as skilled, to really learn something.
     
  5. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    I get mostly bands with $300 drum kits and poor technique coming thru so I have a lot of experience with less than ideal drum tracks. I always have a little talk with the drummer before every session and tell them to practice certain techniques BEFORE they come to the studio now. I've learned my lesson. The drummer and drumkit are 90% of the problem and 90% of the solution. Good drummers with good, properly tuned drum kits ALWAYS sound better than the poor, untrained drummer. Sometimes, there is nothing you can do about it either...short of sound replacement. On my site it's easy to tell who the good drummers with good kits are.
     
  6. McCheese

    McCheese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    You could find a place to publicly post them and we could have a contest!
     
  7. davemoore

    davemoore Guest

    Sounds great, tomorrow afternoon I'll get a decent drum track down to a click track and all that jazz. But again, I'm sorry for the raw tracks! I can't do anything about the bass! I've been trying to get a better kick drum sound and it's just so damn bad. I can't get it the way I want no matter how much.

    So I'll post the raw tracks tomorrow, but before then, does anyone have *any* suggestions on bass drum sound. How tight the front head should be in relation to the beater head. Mic techniques, etc.

    Look forward to the raw tracks tomorrow.

    Dave
     
  8. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    To be perfectly honest, the kick's fundamental frequencies are there, except for the beater sound. I'd suggest turning around the beater so the plastic side is hitting the head. You WILL get more click this way BUT you have to hit hard and evenly to keep the click sound consistent.

    Also:
    Play A LOT harder on the toms. You need some nice solid hits to make them sound good. From the sound of the samples, you aren't playing very hard at all. I'd suggest hitting the toms as hard as the snare. Kick that kick nice and hard as well. Try to hit the cymbals with just enough force to make them sound good but don't nail them ...with what you have there you'd be better served to have less cymbal noise in the mics, things will just get harsh after EQ and compression. Use your shure 81s as OH mics in stereo, forget about micing the hihat individually. Get a nice stereo spread with the 81s and that will be more than enough volume on that hihat.

    Here is a good link that will help you understand the whole micing drums concept a little better:
    http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

    *click on Drums and Percussion on the left hand side and then Mic Placement n the top left tab*


    When you record and post your tracks tomorrow, make sure you give me each individual track and not just a stereo mix. Start with four stick clicks so it will be easier to line them up if for some reason they aren't sync'd up. The hoobastank kick isn't far from your reach. Just know that there is probably a sample mixed with the original kick in that song.
     
  9. KyroJoe

    KyroJoe Guest


    Dave,

    check out Prof. Sound's Drum Tuning Bible at these links:

    Prof. Sounds Drum Tuning Bible Ver 3.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/index.html


    PDF download
    http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/DTBv3.pdf




    KJ
    ----------------
    Kyro Studios
     
  10. davemoore

    davemoore Guest

    Thanks again, you guys are invaluable.

    On the stereo mix I provided earlier, the OH's were pretty close to the cymbals and I did a poor job in mixing it so the cymbals were less, and there IS no tom mics, and no mic is really capturing any of the tom sound.

    I reviewed RecordingMan's post about mic placement of OH's, and it's amazing! It's 9 pages long and mostly the same thing over and over again, but the main concept is there on how to place some awesome sounding OH's. This way, I don't even need tom mic's, and I'm getting an awesome tom sound.

    The 'sae' page, I've read the whole thing already ;) Thanks for the link anyways though.

    And the tuning bible is great! I'm going to fiddle around with the kick mostly tonight and try to get myself a good starting point, then post some individual tracks. Be back later tonight :)

    also.... if anyone wants to know how my OH's are setup, take a look for recorderman's post on the OH placement. One will be directly above my head pointed at the snare drum, and the other will be right over my right shoulder, pointed at the bassdrum/toms.

    Dave
     
  11. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    davemoor..if your using a snare mic..then angle the OH over the snare towards the rack tom(s)..and the other (over right shoulder mic) towards the floor tom(s).
     
  12. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    as stated in your first post, you did or didn't mic the toms? I'd suggest you do mic the toms when you do the raw tracks today, that gives me more options. Unless you have a nice room with nice mics, nice pres, a good drummer and a properly tuned drumkit, it's hard to get enough tom in the OH mix. Always give yourself more options. Use tom mics.
     
  13. davemoore

    davemoore Guest

    What considering I'm a professional engineer, drummer, have top of the line *everything* I don't need tom mics. lol

    Yea, I'll throw up my tom mics. I was experiementing trying to get a more "basic" drum sound without getting everything too muddy by throwing up 10 mic's.

    I believe there are two different type of engineer's when it comes to recording drums. You are either

    A) Do what it takes to get the best sound possible, i.e. 25 mic's if you need to. Doesn't mean you'll USE all the recorded tracks in the mix down, but it's always nice to have options.

    or

    B) Get a GOOD sound by only a few mic's, i.e. use 4 mics, bass, snare, and two overhead's, in the right placement, right room, right gear, you'll get a monster sound just out of 4 mics.


    Either way, I haven't decided which one I am, just trying to experiement and go with what I can do. I'll use three tom mics on the three toms. Two overhead's, a snare mic, and a bass mic. I'll provide all the details, and possibly pictures of the setup once I'm all done.

    Dave
     
  14. I-Quality

    I-Quality Guest

    so this is funny 'cause I thought I was the only one with those shure mics heh

    well as i have a similar system to yours so i thought i'd just drop in what i did myself for comparison, i'm not a pro, way from it actually it's only the 3rd time I record a full drumset, but between the 2nd and 3rd time I made some individual tests (oh, bass drum etc) but alwyas a lot of mixing between...

    ok so here is my opinion on your recording (may it be worth or not..) :

    I thought the dry mix was way better than your wet one, it's much more balanced, your wet mix has way too much bass (sub-bass like under 80-60hz) and there is no attack at all (2000-5000hz)
    apparently you don't play hard at all, so there lies a part of the problem, slam you drums! I'd say even your snare isn't played hard enough....
    for mic placement experiment more...I suck too
    for mixing try to make something better out of your sound....

    ok so my recording took place where my bands play. It's not a good room, all walls are concrete but on the floor there's a fitted carpet ( yeeehaa). well so here is what i used :

    2 pg81 for AB overheads
    3 pg56 for toms
    1 sm57 for snare
    1 pg52 for bass drum
    1 C1 like ~40cm = 16in ?? from hole
    tascam fw1884 --> cubase

    http://www.donutsbadtrip.com/mp3/sons/dry.mp3

    http://www.donutsbadtrip.com/mp3/sons/wet.mp3

    As to just comparing your dry with mine I won't say anything cause my tracking sucks... I need a better bass drum mic

    well i look forward for comments good or bad(which I prefer so i'll have to work =P)
     
  15. davemoore

    davemoore Guest

    I-Quality, I really enjoyed your mix, it's balanced and everything sounded great.

    I especially enjoyed the tom's. They sounded even, not too deep or anything. What kind of kit are you playing on? Tell me a little more about your setup. How you miced the bass. Hole in the bass drum?

    The wet mix from before was something I did real quick to post what was wrong with my mix. I'll post another wet and dry mix here soon. I'm still learning as I go.

    The major problem for me is my room that I am recording in. It has dura-rock (cement plaster walls) so it's a very reverb room. It's not huge, 11' x 13' but it's not small. Just need to tackle the room -- but that's for another time.
     
  16. davemoore

    davemoore Guest

    Heeeeeerrreee we go. Raw tracks are up. After listening to I-Quality's dry and wet mix I feel a little sad because I already got my dry mix finished and my tom's are possibly a little to deep, low, and a little too roomy. Either way, I'll still post it. And see if you can compress/eq/gate/etc it to get it sounding fat and sweet! And then tell us what effects you used.

    So to sum up, here is the link...
    http://themoneguys.com/recording/rawtracks.html
    Download the raw tracks. Put it into your favorite mixing program. Eq, Compress, Gate, Compress some more, Eq some more. What ever you need to do to get these drums sounding sweet! And after you're done, post a link to the file, or send it directly to me as a mixed down stereo wav or mp3 to Tasark@aol.com and I'll post it on the rawtracks.html site.

    Once you're done -- DON'T forget to show us what eq, compression, etc you used. I'd like, if possible, to get a screen shot of the EQ layout of each track. For those who do not know, this is how. . .

    Get the EQ settings on the screen for the particular track. Once you have it nicely and visable, hit the "prt scr" button on your keyboard. It's "print screen" also. It should be above the insert, delete, home, end key's. Go into start menu (if on windows) load up the paint program. Go to edit, paste. Now a screen shot of your computer will be up. Cut (if you want) just the EQ portion out and save the file. And send it to me and I'll post it along with the mix file. Tasark@aol.com

    I played for some 15 minutes, and cut most of it out, so a few part WERE cut and I only spent the afternoon on it, so you may notice where two drum parts are butted up against each other, sorry. It ended up being 3 and a half minutes long. About the length of a normal song. I did play to a click track of 120 beats, but it ended up getting f'ed up and not with the click track after I edit a few parts. Sorry guys.

    Have at it, and keep passing along the techniques and tips!

    - D
     
  17. I-Quality

    I-Quality Guest

    the kit is a simple yamaha stage custom
    pg52 was in the bass drum pointing near the beater at ~20-30cm and the C1 was 40cm outside of the bass drum pointing at the hole of the bass drum

    just a little thing
    if you want more body to toms or snare point mic to the edge, if you want more attack point to where the drummer hits the drums
     
  18. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    awesome, got the tracks last night. I can definately work with them. I'll mess around with them tonight when I get home.
     
  19. THeBLueROom

    THeBLueROom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    I messed with them a little last night. Just some FYIs:

    Your kick track is totally distorted. Sounds like you overloaded the pre.
    Your OHs aren't anywhere near the same volume. Probably 10db dif.
    Your snare track came out fairly well. You have a decent snare and you had good mic placement. Now just hit it harder consisently ;) When you hit it hard it sounds so much better, just keep that in mind.
    Toms came out pretty well too.

    I mess around with them this weekend some more and I'll post something up soon.
     
  20. bobbo

    bobbo Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Location:
    ohio
    re

    Now first thing, someone probably all ready mentioned this but that hoobastank kick sound is probably heavily processed, is being run through nice expensive preamps, has maybe 2 mics on the kick, hell it may have even been a triggered kick sound that they chose to go with on mix down. They may have used the technique to extend the kick drum by putting another kick drum in front of the original kick and then put a mic in the second kick and pick up some of the lowend since it has had a longer distance for the wave to form. And also the drums they used for recording were probably rented from a drum shop somewhere specifically for the sound they trying to get on that cd. Another sad thing too is that the person who tracked the drums may have been a trained session drummer who could get the kick hits consistant and tuned perfectly.

    Plus on another post here about drum sounds when by themselves (soloed) may not sound good in a mix. etc

    just my 2 cents,

    Now here is something from me to help get that sound for you. I would first make sure you have a pillow or something your kick to help kill the ring, and if possible use a double ply head. I mostly use my audix D6 (I have a beta 52 but the d6 is easyer to work with for me) and I place just inside the hole. now on tracking I first compress the kick at about 2.5-3/1 ratio with about 3-8 db of reduction and then add some 4khz shelving eq and cut some of the 300-550hz (parametric) and then only if needed I would add a little bit of 60-65hz. Next Check to see what it sounds like, check it with the bass gtr, and gtrs. Make a test recording and make adjustments to get more punch out of the kick, maybe you need more click and maybe you need to cut at a different frequincy etc... then it comes down to the drummer to have nice good solid punchy hits each time to get a good consistant sound. Plus you don't have to hit the cymbals that hard, If you hit them softer then you get less bleed into the other mics so you can eq the other drums more with out getting so much cymbal bleed into the mic. from there though its off to mixing the kick and readjusting the eq to fit in the mix and especially with the bass gtr, the kick also doesn't need that much lows either, the bass gtr will help give the lowend thud when played correctly which brings up something I don't think anyone's brought up yet, the bass gtr needs to line up exactly with the kick or it could muddy everthing up and sound off.

    Now after that, I have still noticed a huge difference in a kick drum sound after mastering too, I could have an alright track that needs the volume raised and I will run it through my T-racks and It just glues everything together and makes the kick alot punchier, though if the kick wasn't loud enough at mix, it could get lost after mastering too.

    So then your back mixing down the kick alittle louder than you think and then you master it again then it sounds good and thick and well worth all of the setup you went through.

    Just me expeirence, I just do this for a hobby and I am still very young and learning too. But take everything you read into consideration and use what works for you. The micing technique I talked about earlyer gives me a nice punchy drum good for rock, pop/screamo etc but not for country music, jazz, big band, folk etc.

    good luck man, and post some more tracks

    Bob
     

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