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Hi-hat bleed (not samplers) is killing the drummer profession in the studio

Discussion in 'Hi-Hats' started by zblip2, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    barkly.jpeg



    REMY is well respected and for you to make her feel like she should admit a "my bad" is imo inexcusable. rude on your part to say the least.

    you make a lot of assumptions most of them preclude that the way you do things is the right way and also the way everyone else does it.

    1) when YOU record a singer YOU put them in a vocal booth. i don't.

    2) in your world drums would sound better without hi hat spill. not in mine.

    3) YOU perceive hat spill as a problem. i don't. it's what real drums sound like.

    4) YOU think sampled drums sound better than real drums. i don't. and a lot of other well respected recordists concur with how I feel. i think sampled drums sound like ass most of the time. i pretty much hate electronic music, drum machines, samples in general and keyboard players who think they can do everything themselves who coupled with over zealous control freak producers have probably done more in the past 20 years to destroy the pop music idiom. Craig Anderton should die.

    again i think the real issue here is you have never recorded a really good drummer on a well tuned kit in a great room. like i said before, it should only take one mic.

    when you can make records like the ones that came out of STAX/ FAME/ Chess/ MOTOWN/ Armin Steiner/ WESTERN/ and the CAPITOL BUILDING, then you can pontificate on what is a good drum sound and what isn't.
     
  2. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    I love the dog! I love the quote "Craig Anderton should die." LMAO LOL whoops! Almost! Good thing I'm a tight ass. Oy vey that was good. It distracted me from the news talking about David " Betrayed US ".

    I fully understand that film mix guys, go about their craft in quite a different way. Unlike what Kurt even had to say, I specialize in live on location recording for albums, radio and TV broadcasts. So I deal with a lot of crappy cheap drum sets and cymbals, a lousy acoustical environments. Yet what I must do, is still make it sound like a hit record regardless. And that's what us good recording music dweebs know how to do. Stuff I learned in my teens over 40 years ago. I was heavily ensconced in the broadcast industry and recording arts and sciences. Never in the film except as a location audio capture guy with a NAGRA III/IV, Sennheiser 816 shotgun (with A/B powering), Sony and Sennheiser wired and wireless lavaliers'. Not even with crystal sync but with pilot tone 90° offset from the full track gap, connected with a cable to the ARIFLEX 16/35mm movie cameras. Where are all of you guys who were mixing this were using KEPEX 1's and looping my room tone. So you are already familiar with gating and downward expansion. So I'm still unclear as to why you would have posted this particular question?

    Am I missing something here?
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  3. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    Hmm.. ok.

    Remy, sorry, Kurt, sorry. All of this is going too far and it's probably my fault. I don't want to pontificate and I don't want anybody to feel bad. I just wanted to issue a statement for you guys to reflect on, to agree or disagree. Lets make peace. :) I dont like hi-hat bleed, to me, its just pollution that gets in the way of clarity, it masks the chains of the snare, it rings in the room mics etc. You don't have to agree. I won awards sure, but it was as a sound designer not as a recording engineer, although I've been doing it for as long as the other two. I've mixed 5.1 movie scores I've been around. I've been in situations where I miced drums and due to the drummer's style or what else, I had hi-hat bleed problems and I just hated it. It made no sense to me that as sophisticated our tools have become, that we were still dealing with the age old problem of hi-hat bleed. Since then it has always been a worry for me.
    I'll let you in on a little secret: I've been working on an invention for the last year and a half. Its a device that cuts hi-hat bleed by about 20db in the snare track, 10db in the room mic, and 3 db in the overheads. All this without affecting the quality of the sound, nor the drummer's playing. I looked through the patents database and nothing existed that resemble my idea. I made one, tried it and found out that it worked. You know how good the snare sounds when the drummer is playing on the ride instead of the hi-hat, well with the device, the snare sounds like that or better, all the time. The drummer can play with the hi-hats half opened, it doesn't make a difference. You hear the personality of the snare, the chains, the harmonic content, the ghost notes, side sticks snap etc... When comes mixing, lift the faders, EQ as you please, no gating necessary (although you can if you want total separation), put a basic compressor on the drum bus, and voilà , perfect sounding drums. I know I'll never record a drum again without this thing, and I figure others (drummers, producers, engineers) will feel the same. The drummers who tried it liked it, one insisted on buying the prototype as ugly as it was. Everything just sounds better with it and mixing drums becomes a lot simpler. I patented the thing and am in the process of perfecting it before going into production. I hope the idea will catch on. You will probably hear about it in a couple of months. Look for "HHH".. ;)
     
  4. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Sounds like a cool gizmo? Hope you make some $'s? Obviously, you hate hi hat bleed. On occasion, I've just used a little duct tape or gaffers tape, on the blasted thing. But that doesn't really reduce any bleed. Takes a little zing away from something that might be too zingy. Where hi hat bleed is also not a problem for many of us. So you are now a rock 'n roll recording engineer? Sure, we can agree to disagree because we are professionals. We all have our own unique talents and techniques. We all attain great sounding stuff which also includes hi hats, without exclusionary measures.

    HHH? Hi Hat Hater?

    Drum recordist
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  5. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    Good one! lol I think I'll change the name to that!
    We are all passionate about the work we do, the reason being we are condemned to be excellent. A mecanic repairs your car, a doctor fixes your arm, but us sound guys/gals, we can not just "sound", we have to freakin sound amazing all the time. That's not fair! But it still is the coolest job out of the three aint it?

    And no, I'm not a rock'n roll recording engineer, probably why I'm not an expert at micing drums which is the reason I invented the thing. I'm basically a sound designer, I find out how to create sounds for film and TV, maybe this explains my approche I don't know...
     
  6. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Well I certainly think it soothes the confusion? LOL. Condemned to be excellent, I couldn't put it better myself.

    I think for many of us, we approach things like recording drums in much the same way that you do as a sound designer. We are building a sonic image with a room full of tools at our disposal (if they're Chinese that is). We create and design sounds for music lovers. At least that's my approach. Frequently I have to also design my sound to match the picture. And sometimes not. Because if the picture looks crappy, I still want my sound to make the picture look good.

    I don't very often grab at the suck control. (From the Gary Larson cartoon)
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  7. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    6a00d83452e46469e20120a4e6180a970b-800wi.jpg this whole thing would have been a lot simpler if you had stated your business up front.

    we all assumed you were looking for advice, not announcing your idea. i'm glad we got this cleared up.

    peace!
     
  8. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    Peace :) well the goal wasn't to announce anything, it was to feel out the demand, but it did'nt got at all as I expected. oh well

    I salute you fror protecting your friend. Keep on rock'n in the free world![h=3][/h]
     
  9. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    well now that you've peaked our interest, what is this invention? i am curious.
     
  10. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    I wrote a whole description and was about to post it but at the last second I changed my mind. facepalm
    I'm sorry, I can't tell you more about it. If we were friends I would even show you a picture of it, but posting this on a public site gives me the spooks. My patent is in process and if something goes wrong with the patents office and I describe the principles of my device publicly I could regret it. As soon as the patent is locked and approved I'll be glad to share the idea with everybody. This is probably the only marketable Idea I will ever have, I must protect it. I'm sure you understand. The thing works, and what I wish is that one day, using it will be as common as putting a sm57 on the snare drum. If this day comes, I will have made enough money to take a permanent vacation.smoke
     
  11. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    i have seen people do a lot of things to try to cut spill on drums.

    i even saw one guy cut the bottoms out of paper cups and tape them on 421's. lol .

    that was about the stupidest thing ever. didn't do sh*t to tame the spill. the guy thought it made an improvement but i didn't hear it. in fact i think it made it worse. people can convince themselves of just about anything.

    most cardioid mics work picking up sound from the rear and pushing it through a labyrinth or chamber making it out of phase and canceling it out. if you block the sound from the rear, your cardioid mic suddenly becomes omni ... which is exactly what you DON'T want. this is why people who cup a 58 and then whine about feedback are idiots.

    there were a lot of really smart physicists who worked on mic designs for bell labs / rca / emi / bbc back in the early 20th century. i am skeptical that they left any stones unturned in regard to this.

    best of luck with your invention.
     
  12. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    And maybe not? Because folks like myself, wouldn't necessarily be interested. But today, it's a world of quantity versus quality. So ya might do rather well? I hope you do. Anything from keeping people making the same mistakes recording drums, as you have. And it will be a hit. Rich guys will all want them. Beginners will need them. And that's a good-sized demographic group to make a few bucks with. Just not sure why you had so many problems recording Hi-hat?

    Anyone need a civil defense bomb shelter?
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  13. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    Thanks for your good wishes, I'm turning 50, and I could really do with a steady income that doesn't imply working my ass off if you get my drift. I promise the two of you, you'll be the first ones other than my few close friends, that ill hear about it. :)
     
  14. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Great! Looking forward to what you come up with. We all love better mousetraps, bass traps. Every acoustical gizmo has its place. I'm for whatever makes a good recording.

    Completely isolated socks. Yeah, I can find a whole bunch of lefts that don't match a whole bunch of rights.
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  15. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    I could send you sound clips if you're interested..
     
  16. RemyRAD

    RemyRAD Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2005
    Sure! Would love to hear a samle, A/B, etc.. Might be something that no one will want to live without when recording drums?

    Sound cloud or Drop Box, info@Crowmobile.com would all be viable. YouTube if you like?

    Sounds cool.
    Mx. Remy Ann David
     
  17. zblip2

    zblip2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Location:
    Montreal
    next test should be next week-end I'll try to remember to save an mp3 of it
     
  18. Beat Poet

    Beat Poet Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2011
    Location:
    Hertfordshire, UK
    Home Page:
    It's also good to move the hat out wide, away from the snare. Countless times back in the day I got back on my kit after someone else had played it and the tube of the hi-hat stand has been up against the snare. The first time I went in the studio, the producer saw my setup and said "great, your hat's up and away from the snare!". Having the hat up and out of the way also gives the drummer more room to execute that other excellent studio tip - beating the snare hard!
     
  19. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    They were developing microphone systems with certain generic applications in mind. Also, you have to bear in mind that in those days the use of multitracks and close mics wasn't being considered. Also, the hihat was about 3 inches tall in the 1920s, it was only foot-operated, rather than played with the stick as well. I wouldn't say that microphones have diversity of design at the moment, very few people are actually working on different systems for achieving directionality. In fact, in the 1930s, the use of various systems combining an omni with a fig8 in various configurations was much more developed than it is today. These days we mostly see acoustic-labyrinth cardioids and hypercardioids, which I personally don't enjoy the sound of. Comb filtering.

    Specific devices which become part of the drumkit, one could certainly improve matters in ways that weren't considered by microphone designers in the 20s and 30s. I've certainly seen people building massive great baffles to go between the hihat and snare, which will do something to cut out direct-path spill, although I'd hate to play drums with a huge foam-covered board stuck in the middle of the kit. It's a bit of an 80s approach in my opinion, disco producers were very fond of that sort of thing. TBH none of the drum mic techniques I favour involve reliance on separation or a discrete approach to close mics.
     
  20. Audiofreek

    Audiofreek Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Location:
    Prince George,BC,Canada
    This quote should be the forward for any "how to play studio drums" tutorial.
     
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