Hi I´m going MAD!

Discussion in 'Microphones (live or studio)' started by trallipolli, Feb 4, 2005.

  1. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    Hi everybody, I´m having a trouble i´ve been trying to figure out for the last two weeks and i´m going mad. So before I tell you what the trouble is I have to describe my setup :
    I have a Powerbook 15" and I connect my MBOX to it. From audio out on the Mbox I connect it to my Yamaha A5000 sampler and from there to my amplifier and from there to my speakers...I have the multitracks of a song that I made in ProTools and when I play it thru the Mbox-Sampler-Amplifier-Speakers set up it sounds great. When I record it (by connecting from Casette Rec on my amp. to Audio in on the Mac) in Sound Studio or just some recording program on my mac and listen to the results I must say it sucks ass. I´ve been trying alot of things, for example bouncing the song from Protools (the reuslts suck as well), by recording on a track in Protools, and so on, but I never get the same sound as from playing the MULTI TRACKS from Protools, thru sampler to amp....I don´t know what to do, but you guys and girls have to help me, if you have 5 minutes to spare that is.... :)

    Best regards,
  2. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    I just did a very long answer for you and the net did one of those things that happens to us on slow net ...

    sorry, I haven't time to redo it all

    Forget the Audio In on the Mac.

    turn down your speakers to VERY low.
    we have the ptential for electronic feedback which is ugly and loud

    Use the line inputs of the M-box.
    open a stereo track and mute or route to an unused bus
    trim level for NO clip during the playback of the whole song.
    record a past
    then B-to-D just that stereo track and burn CD

    no more time
    let me know if any of this makes sense.
  3. Dave62

    Dave62 Guest

    Just wondering why the m-box output is routed thru the sampler on the way to the amp. It's possible that this is adding something (gain-EQ-phaseproblems) and really shouldn't be in the output chain. Why it would sound differen't between the multitracks versus an internal bounce in Protools suggest to me that something is being added to your sound after the M-box output. If the sampler is adding something then record it into P-tools thru the M-box line inputs and then use bounce to disk to finish it. This also prevents another analog generation from being added to your mix.
  4. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    Kev and Dev62: Thanks

    Since I can´t personal message you I have to post this as an reply:

    Thanks for your help guys, but what you´ve described I´ve tried it all before...and it doesn´t work. Dev: It´s true, the Yamaha sampler makes the sound much, much fatter than it would be, rounded str8 from the mbox to the amplifier. So I tried recording from the output of the sampler, both from sampler to mbox and from sampler to Audio in on my Powerbook but both the results sucked big time, so I don´t know what to do..? Where should I search for answers? This is so frustrating, because the great sound (sorry how vainglorious I sound:)) I´ve finally succeed after hours and almost days of working can´t be recorded.
    Best regards from Iceland,
  5. lwilliam

    lwilliam Active Member

    Oct 6, 2000
    Santa Clarita, CA USA
    Home Page:
    Re: Kev and Dev62: Thanks

    1. Sampler to mBox - there must be a level mismatch or something. This should work if you're using a new stereo track (and mute it while recording).

    2. The preamps/electronics with the built-in audio on just about any Mac are not pro quality (think Soundblaster quality). This will never sound good.

    I presume these are all analog i/o's - not s/pdif, correct? Otherwise, there are other factors such as clocking source to consider.
  6. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    what sampler are you using and I'll try to do some net searching for drawings and specs etc .. ??
  7. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    hi everybody!

    lwilliam: Yes this is analog i/o.
    Kev: I´m using a Yamaha A5000.

    I was wondering; is this problem of mine a known one, that is, that it isn´t possible to get the quality of a multitrack session compressed to one single wave file?

    thanks a lot for your time guys,
    greatings from Iceland,
  8. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    I had a look for the A5000 manual and did find it
    I'm not going to download 9.9meg


    I'll assume that you have the correct cables and converters required to make the signals flow correctly and get on to the continual problem of what people call mastering.

    At present you monitor the Mbox through the sampler and the midi-sampler sound is straight from the sampler to your amp/speakers.

    Monitoring and how it is set up is something people don't give enough thought to.
    That may seem patronising but it is the simple truth.

    Currently you have what I would call a performance / writing setup.

    This could get complicated and involved but in the long run it needs to be understood to find a work around to your problem.

    shall I continue ?
  9. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    IF you have the time, sure continue, but otherwise you don´t have to :)
  10. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    I have had great trouble with posting and the NET in general this week.

    As I said this is an issue and it's not something that just goes away. Even if you don't want to go to a mastering suite this concept is there for all of us.

    We have a thread here that is about streaming and levels and in a strange way it bounces around the same problem as we have here.

    You have a edit and monitoring system that seems to serve you well while composing
    when it comes to deliver your product things go wrong.
    We now have to look to the delivery and how it is received.

    It is likely that the delivery method of choice is CD.

    Having said that I suggest you get a favourite CD and extract your favourite track to two mono Bwav files. Import this to PT and then bounce to disk and make a new audio CD with this favourite track.

    We need to establish that the system and method is correct and that you are comfortable with the results.

    Don't under-estimate this seemingly simple procedure.

    Remember this is a mastered track and 90% of people will be happy with the new CD that is NOT a clone of the first.

    Does any of this make sense ?
  11. audiofreqs

    audiofreqs Guest

    maybe you should tell us HOW it sounds, as opposed to "sucks ass".
    what is the difference in sound between the monitored sound and the re-recorded sound?
    is the re-recorded sound harssh and crackled?
    ist it muddy?
    is it not as punchy?
    these types of descriptions would help.

    and there is still something that i don't get?
    why don't you just mixdown in pt to a wave file?
  12. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    " sucks ass "
    doesn't really help us.

    He can't bounce to disk as the sampler has much of the sounds ... AND it seems that the sampler's play through equipment is adding to the sound.

    A recording of the track to a stereo pair doesn't seem to satisfy and thats what I am trying to find ... why ?

    the performance and recording monitoring are one in the same and this can often lead to problems with translation of a mix.
  13. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    Thanks guys

    Thanks a lot for your help, and this asssucking thing. It´s just the level that´s much lower when I bounce. There is no hiss and crack thing... and NO there are no sounds I´m using on my sampler. I just connect the MBox in the sampler cuz I like the results. But I think I´ve found the solution. I just have to add a plugin called L2 (from Waves) on the bounced file. I haven´t tried it yet but I guess it will solve things....
    Thanks a lot for your time.
  14. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest

    This was supposed to be: Thanks a lot for your help, AND SORRY for this ass sucking thing.

  15. wwittman

    wwittman Active Member

    Apr 28, 2003
    In case you didn't already know... many records have been made over the years WITHOUT Waves plug-ins.. shocking as this may seem.

    Seriously, you don't NEED plug-ins and especially, you don't need compression on the overall mix to make your recording sound 'right'.

    Seems to me, form what you've said... that it sound sright to you through the sampler, but NOT right when you hear if NOT through the sampler... is that essentially it?

    If so, it seems clear to me that the sampler adds some sort of hype that you like.
    And you get all your sounds and adjust your mix listening WITH this hype.
    Try recording and mixing listening straight out of the MBox... you may find you need to work differently on the individual sounds then before... b ut eventually you'll get it sounding 'right' to you again...then it should hold up after you do a bounce-to-disk or however you end up mixing down.

    hope this helps.
  16. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    what WW says is true but it might not make sense just how to get things right.

    As I said before,
    there is performance monitoring AND mixdown/mastering monitoring.

    Although it is possible to get these to co-exist, it is not common at the lower budget, which is where you are.
    no offence meant

    First we need to establish that M-Box straight to monitoring with your favourite track will satisfy you.
    see above.
    Then we get your track as it is back into the M-Box and then find out why you are not happy.
    It could be what people refer to as mastering.
    will be impossible to sort this out while the monitor ALL through the sampler ...

    make sense ?
  17. trallipolli

    trallipolli Guest


    Yes it makes sense, and WW: I know many records have been made thru the years without L2/L3, and I also know that I sounded very ignorant when I said that the solution to all my problems would be one plugin from Waves, sorry :) .
    But I guess that the level out of the sampler is much higher than out of a normal Cd player and a computer, so that´s just messing with my head. I guess I have to buy "flat monitors" (don´t know what it´s called in English but I´m talking about monitors where all frequencies are "flat"). I´m mixing on an very old pair of speakers.
    Thanks for the help,
  18. Kev

    Kev Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Even mixing on the old monitors could be OK ... at least for a while.

    This is an area overlooked with most new starters and also in the product range being offered by most manufacturers.
    The DAW is the most common set up these days. It should be easy.
    Your normal set-up needs to be able to monitor a CD and then one of your current mixes ... AS IF ... it were a CD.

    SO even if you do continue to make songs through the Sampler you also need to be able to monitor the M-Box directly to the speaker system.

    Say you have a normal hifi amp.
    CD into the CD input.
    M-Box - split to Tape 1 input
    M-Box - 2nd split to Sampler then to Tape 2.

    You can now monitor these direct. Having level trim would be cool but it needs a specialy built unit.
    Even trimming the monitor level is something most people don't give think time to.

    shall I continue ?

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