I know there have been recording drums questions check this

Discussion in 'Drums' started by starmusicdigital, Aug 30, 2004.

  1. I have an old CB percussion kit. It has been refitted with all new remo pinstripe heads and a newly tuned snare, cymbals and pedals/hardware. I cant get a decent recording out of it at all, i dont know what im doign wrong. the bass drum maybe too narrow for the bass response i want or the mic could be positioned wrong. or over all i need to tune the heads diffrent, or maybe its where the drums are. I could test all these and more constenly, but i thought id ask here first to see how any of you could help to get this kit sounding good, drummers out there your comments are greatly appeciated.

    I am dealnig with:
    one MXL v63M condenser
    one NADY DM 80 kick drum mic
    one pair of NADY DM 70 tom/snare mics

    all going into a makie 1604 Vlz pro.

    i need some suggestions for micing this kit plz...

  2. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    Most of your problem is in the mics. Throw the MXL v63M condenser, the NADY DM 80 kick drum mic and the pair of NADY DM 70 tom/snare mics away (or sell them if you can live with yourself after).

    Get a pair of Studio Projects C4's for overheads and a few SM57s for the snare and toms. If you can afford them, Sennheiser 421's for the toms would work well too. Another tom mic option is the Audio technica Pro 35 X clip on condenser.. They run about 125 bucks each and are what I use. Very convenient, sound good and you won't need stands for them. The 35X also works well on snare sometimes, depending on how bright the drum is.

    Get a D112 or an Audix D6 for the kick drum ... cut a hole in the front head of the kick drum to shove the mic into the drum, aimed at the beater or just below, about 3 or 4 inches away from it. Sometimes it helps to aim the mic a little to one side or the other.

    While you listen on headphones or the studio monitors, move (or have an assistant move) the mic around in very small increments, to find the spot that sounds the best, You will be surprised at how much difference can be made with just a small movement.

    Do not remove the front head as this can cause the shell to warp over time. You must keep tension on it. Use dead ringers on both heads the kick drum to muffle the ring. Nothing else works as well. Do not use any other pillows or blankets in the kick as they only kill the resonance of the shell , which really sucks. Throw a moving blanket over the kick drum once you have the mics set up. This will cut down on the toms ringing sympathetically and help keep the cymbal spill down on the kick track.

    On the kick, if I had to use the Mackie pres I would engage the hi pass filter then boost the low eq a few dB ... no other eq should be applied. On the Mackies, the hi freq doesn't come down low enough IMO and the Q on the mid band is waaaaay to wide to be of any use. That's a good start.

    If you really need to, try these techniques with the mics you already have ... but if I were you I would sh*t can them and get some good mics..
  3. miks

    miks Guest

    How about using the Shure pgdmk6 drum mic kit. Is that any good to use on drums?
  4. inLoco

    inLoco Active Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    i just think that the pg kits are patetic!
    a bass drum pg mic costs around 50 euros less than the akg 112
    don't know which one i'd choose...
  5. Randyman...

    Randyman... Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2003
    Houston, TX
    No offense, but I'd bet the bank that that old "CB-700" set is FAR from truely round and FAR from having true bearing edges. I sold CB-700 kits to beginners about 6 years ago. The kits I am familiar with run about $450 with hardware. I spent almost twice that on a "good" snare drum alone (Not to mention about $800 on cymbals)

    My point - a bad drum set can NOT be salvaged with good gear - or even great gear. This may be a place to start (you HAVE to start with the source). New heads were a step in the right direction, but even that won't help a poor shell/bearing edge of the instrument. Good luck! :cool:
  6. miks

    miks Guest

    what about he AKG drum mics (the 5 piece) ? hows that? better than the shure ones?
  7. idiophone

    idiophone Guest

    A good drumset with a good snare, properly tuned in a good room will record well in any situation. Get a maple drumset and an old Ludwig snare (Acrolites are going for around $100 on the bay), then learn how to tune. After that, it's details..........until you get into phase issues, but that's a ways down the road.

    Ditch your kit.
  8. I kinda a agree with everyones comments. Maybe a new set could be in order or i could trash the mic kit. I liked the mic suggestions that were thrown around, I checked the C4's and was impressed with the specs for them. Verynice, and the SM57 I am fimiliar with i just never got around to getting any, my main goal was too see how well a kit could be miked with what i have, but thanks any way

    It helped...

  9. inLoco

    inLoco Active Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    i'd go with the following for the drums! i too am thinking of this setup
    kick - akg 112 (more all around than the audix d6)
    toms - shure sm57 (sure i'd like to have here md441's but this babies do the job very well and can be used for other stuff)
    overheads - studio project C4's
    snare - shure sm 57
    now my question goes to the following:
    what mics are good for the hi-hat around the 300$?
    i'd like to see other possibilities for the following! i want a mic for vocals too but i could use it too or for room mic or for top snare and use the sm57 for under the snare.
    what would you suggest? not way of budget! i hear that the akg 414 are good for vocals and snare too right? any other good choices under that?
  10. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    A 414 is gonna cost more than $300! I like them on snare and on hat ... they work well on overheads too ..

    I would be "a-scared" to use a 441 on toms ... you should see how beat my 421's have gotten being smacked with the errant drumstick ... At almost twice the price, I wouldn't use a 441 on toms unless I was sure the drummer was very accurate, which most aren't. The Pro 35X is very durable, small and sounds really good ... it's also about 1/4th the cost ...

    Do you really need a hat mic? You should be able to pull all the hi hat you need from the overheads ... good hat mic choices are just about any small diaphragm condenser like the AKG 451, 460 &480's, Shure SM 81 or the SP C4's. At under $500 for matched pairs, the C4's represent a great value ... Get 2 sets ... you will have a pair for o/h's one for the hat and one to spot mic the ride cymbal .... it's surprising how many drummers complain that they can't hear the ride in the mix ... it's nice to have it on a track of its own that you can bring up if needed.
  11. inLoco

    inLoco Active Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    what was i thinking :p
    i meant the 421's

    i hear they're good miking the snare too...

    the reason i really would like to mic the hi-hat is simple! my drum has a lot of carter beauford (dave matthews band) and mike portnoy (dream theater) in his veigns so the hi-hat is a big part of his sound! so i'd like it to be almost centered at the mixes! i'f i'd mix it only with overheads it would be of balanced! i've thought of miking the snare at the bottom! this way it get's a lot of hi-hat, but it's not the same!

    kurt how can i mic the ride well with a c4 without getting so much (how do i say it... :? ) reverberation?
    i can get it from the overheads, and if i get another c4's, one for the hat and other for the ride how should i do?
    what do you think is best? getting those 4 C4's and using one of them for vocals too, or getting 2 C4's, an akg 451 and say a rode nt1 or a some mic for vocals not much expensive? I'd like a good mic for tracking vocals since i'm sure i won't be able to afford at first a good mic-pre!
    i'm thinking of getting my studio to be portable so i can get money recording other peoples gigs!
    with a motu mk828II with maybe 2 rme octamic or similiar i think i can achieve good quality! already have a sm57 and 3 sm58 and few other stuff.
    if i can get i'd love to try the tascam 2400 control surface! not so expensive as a digital mixer or the mackies control surfaces
  12. Randyman...

    Randyman... Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2003
    Houston, TX
    IMO - $10,000 in Mics will not help a $400 drum set no matter how you look at it. I'm not recommending against starmusicdigital buying new mics, but it will be like using a 414 on a Fisher-Price toy piano! It would probably the best Fisher Price toy piano you heard, but still pales in comparison to a Steinway Grand with the same mic.

    You will not be able to get "pro" drum sounds out of a CB-700 :( . Sorry to bear the bad news... FYI - I'd bet Carter's kit is worth about $10,000- $15,000 (just for a reference).

  13. well I was looking at some nice mapex kits out there, like this one its a Mapex M series drum kit, Very nice as to what ive heard and i think it will be a great replacement kit then i can get rid of the CB-700 and over all i think it will sound good with the mics i have.

    I have recorded decent drum sounds with the mics before but it wasnt on my kit so... I think im gonna agree with randy man on this one and probably get a new kit.

    heres the one i was looking at:

  14. inLoco

    inLoco Active Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    carter beauford's kit must be around 20 000$ at least!
    his kit consist of:
    01. Yamaha 22"x18" recording custom kick
    02. Yamaha 8" tom
    03. Yamaha 10" tom
    04. Yamaha 12" tom
    05. Yamaha 14" tom
    06. Yamaha 18" floor tom
    07. 13"x51/2" Ocheltree bronze snare
    08. 13" Ocheltree bronze timbale
    09. 14" Ocheltree bronze timbale
    10. Zildjian 3" Z Dyno Beat hi-hat (on top) over 13" K Top Hi-hat (on bottom)
    11. Zildjian 13" A Custom Projection Hi-hats
    12. Zildjian 18" Oriental Trash Crash
    13. Zildjian 14" K Dark Thin Crash
    14. Zildjian 20" A Custom Flat Ride
    15. Zildjian 20" A Custom Projection Ride
    16. Zildjian 6" Zil-Bel
    17. Chinese wedding bell
    18. Zildjian 18" K Dark Medium Thin Crash
    19. Zildjian 17" K Dark Medium Thin Crash
    20. Zildjian 10" A Custom Splash
    21. Zildjian 9" Oriental Trash Splash
    22. Zildjian 10" A Extra Thin Splash
    23. Zildjian 14" K Dark Thin Crash
    24. Zildjian 8" A Splash (piggyback on #22)
    25. Zildjian 22" Oriental China Trash
    26. Zildjian 20" Oriental China Trash (piggyback on #25)
    27. Zildjian 20" Oriental Crash Of Doom
    28. Zildjian 30" Hand Hammered Gong

    for miking all his stuff i know too the mics he uses.
    my drummer has a sonar 3001 with some very good cymbals, hi-hats, crashes, china and gadgets...

    but sure i recommend starmusicdigital to look at good drums! there are some fine ones out there but i consider most important the snare! not all snares achieve a cool sound!
  15. idiophone

    idiophone Guest

    that mapex kit is a step up, but it's still cheap. It's not an ALL maple kit (or at least I've never seen a brand new all-maple kit for under a grand - minimum).

    You should track down an old Ludwig kit from the 1960s or 1970s. They're all-maple, and they sound AMAZING. They're also very cheap on eBay. Look for ugly ones that have scratches (and no structural damage), and you'll spend about $400 for a kit. Get the bearing edges cut, and replace the heads, and you're good to go. Might want to RIMS mount the toms, too.

    I know this can be done because I did it three times (one Ludwig, one Slingerland, and one Rogers). Every single person who has played my old Ludwig kit has offered to buy it on the spot. (I have about $300 in it!)

    As for your snare drum - again, ludwig acrolite snares (the old "student models") are around $100 on eBay, and they are "the sound".

    Popular music was built on the sound of these drums, and you'll understand that when you get one. This is the solution to your drum woes.
  16. rvdsm

    rvdsm Guest

    Re: I know there have been recording drums questions check t

    I've never had any experience with Nady mics. If replacing mics is what you are really interested in then I would just buy SM-57s. Seriously. Unless you're room is acoustically vibrant, your drumset and hardware top notch and your signal path truly clean and open, all the mics in the world aren't going to help your situation. The Shure SM-57 is a good all-purpose mic and it is very possible to get a good drum sound on them.
  17. Go with new drums. I can tell you for a fact the nicest mics in the world are NOT going to remove the sound of death from heads that are shot or from shells that have no resonance resonance. If those new heads are still in okay condition, use them on a new kit and throw away the stock heads. If you seat and tune 'em well, you could get a decent sound in no time.
  18. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    Some good points here re; the condition / quality of the drum kit. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet!!! ... First, take the kit to a drum store and ask to have them looked at by a drum tech. Ask what the condition of the kit is ... Are the drums round? How are the bearing edges? If needed, can they be recut? If it turns out they are beyond hope then start looking for a new set.

    Drums are like guitars .. even with top quality brands there are lemons .. and even in cheap sets, there can be the occasional gem ....

    I used to do recording projects for a guy who drummed for a very well known greasy "East Bay" R&B act. This guy is a killer drummer and he had an old CB set that sounded great ..

    If the tubs are cool, then have the tech help you tune and set them up. Be prepared to pay a bill for services. ... tell him they are for recording ... I usually use less damping on a kit for recording and set them up as I outlined in my first post to this thread. Dead drums sound small ... resonant ones sound less small .. they all sound smaller when coming back in playback so my opinion is the bigger the better ...
  19. nandoph8

    nandoph8 Active Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    I think a room mic is essential. You can put all the mics you want on a kit, but you always gotta bring out the room. Even if it's a really dead or shitty room, you can always reverb the room mic and you'll be surprised how good that sounds.
  20. Jeemy

    Jeemy Well-Known Member

    Sep 19, 2003

    are all ludwig kits made in the 60s all-maple?

    i am looking at a 69 sparkle blue at the moment.

    your advice appreciated,


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