Lavry MP10 with DPA 4011's Piano

Discussion in 'Acoustic Keyboards' started by audiokid, Dec 28, 2011.

  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

  1. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Yes, I hear that sustain pedal too..

    Cool, thanks for helping me again. Whats even more a help is learning what you expect. I'm coming at this from Rock so its very interesting to learn the classic way of doing this. Kudo's on your abilities!

    I'll take a bit more U87 out and time align it. I didn't do that. Do you just do this visually? .
    What song works better for you tonight?
     
  2. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    As far as time align, I start with a tape and set 1 ms per foot delay. Then I just set a loop and dial it in as best as my ears tell me. The close mic again is just icing, if you can "hear" it then it's too much.

    I wish I were closer. I have my passport but the distance is the issue. We could just spend a couple of hours and a bottle working through some things and then listening to about 20 CD's of various decades and performers. Make sure you catch the ORF New Year's Concert of the Vienna Philharmonic. There won't be piano necessarily but the sonic painting and the audio engineering are top notch.

    This is one solution of the problem. Pletnev and Chopin. I don't care for the stereo perspective but the close vs room mic is good.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000001GYT/?tag=recording.org-20

    This is another solution and I like the sonic image better. Claudio Arrau. Room mic's are much closer to the piano.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VH2XX4/?tag=recording.org-20

    On both of these recordings, the stereo pair is probably within ten feet and supported by close mic or no lid and Blumlein over the top. Of course having the piano be a non issue helps a lot with the decisions.
     
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Here are the two again aligned with less U87.

    Sonatina in G Major-U87aligned by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

    U87-Nocturne in CSMinorChopin-aligned by audiokid on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
     
  4. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    If I strike it rich I'll be sure to buy you the ticket AND feed you well! If it was summer, we could go fishing on the side! I would love that.

    Thanks for the links, I'll be sure to watch and listen.
     
  5. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    I think these are much better. Add 2-3 more milliseconds of delay and I think that is worked out. The U87 might just maybe need to be more to the middle of the keyboard on this piano. Those bass strings are so short and anemic they aren't popping through or providing any rumble. A Kawai is a brightish piano anyway and won't sound nasal like a Steinway but still a quality instrument. The hammers are definitely grabbing the strings unequally and it's one reason the sustain is not spectacular in the low end either. To my taste the tenor and bass need to be stretched down a tad more but the high end is bordering too much stretch. Of course that is all a crap shoot since it needs a complete tuning. It's low isn't it? I had the pleasure of playing in an orchestra with Barenboim playing/conducting all the Beethoven piano concertos over a three year period. He can be an ass on rare occasions (and which of us aren't) but is a fine musician and I have a lot of respect for his touch.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VHKFIY/?tag=r06fa-20"]Amazon.com: Chopin: The Complete Nocturnes: Daniel Barenboim: MP3 Downloads
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Add 2-3 more milliseconds of delay to the U87 you mean?

    What do you mean "tenor and bass need to be stretched down a tad more"? What is stretched?

    It was just tuned a few weeks ago. These girls play this thing! And the weather has been all over the map this year. Its close to 440 but I haven't checked for a few days.I managed to grab my wrench and tweak it a bit.

    Found the song she is playing from Daniel Barenboim , thanks! We'll both listen to it in detail! Its a dark sounding recording eh? The lower mids are almost to muddy for my tastes but I have to get over my desire to make /hear things bright for classic don't I?

    You've been very blessed with all your experiences and opportunities. I'm sure you've worked very hard, well deserving.
     
  7. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    On a piano because of the tension that the steel wire is under, the physics of the strings create partials that are less than perfect when compared to theoretical. This large quagmire of a subject is called inharmonicity. All tuners adjust a piano to account for this. In short, the 2nd partial of any given string should be exactly double the frequency it is sounding. If A4=440Hz then in theory A5 should =880Hz. A6=1760Hz etc. Depending on the given piano each of the partials are sharper than theoretical and the higher the partial of the string the more it is sharp. So your middle temperament octave f3 to f4 or expanded c3 to c5 is stretched about 2hz wide of perfect in order to then tune the top and bottom and make it fit together smoothly. There are as many conventions to tuning aurally as there are tuners but the sort of Bb vanilla starting point is to stretch down by playing 5ths and listening for either the 3rd partial of the bottom note or the 6th partial depending on your ideal. Work your way down the piano until you hit bottom. The key is not to let your ear go hog wild because you will end up with the bottom actually too low. Conversely for the steel strings C5 and up, you tune another couple octaves by tempering 5ths, 4ths, and octaves. By the time you get to where you can't hear those beats you just tune octaves up to the top. Again this is just the starting point to a mastering of the practical application. For instance on a smaller grand I might tune 4:1 octaves in the treble and 8:4 octaves in the bass to account for the greater inharmonicity of short strings.

    It is harder to explain than it is to demonstrate. Suffice it to say that a guitar or bass tuner is neither accurate enough (rarely accurate to 1/6 of a cent) and it won't allow for proper stretch of the octaves. Think about your guitars. If you tune the bottom e to match the top e exactly and then tune each string e->a p4, a->d p4, d->g p4, g->b just 3rd, the last b->e sounds like a$$. You have to compromise to get a sweetened tuning that works well. Now instead of 6 strings you have 88 notes worth of strings.

    You have the ears. I could teach you how to tune well enough to touch up your piano in between tuner visits in about three hours. Then it is practice practice practice. Figure roughly 500 tunings to competency and 1000 tunings before mastery if one is conscientious and capable.
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Yes, thanks for the fine explanation! I actually understand this but like you say, practice practice and having someone like yourself go through it with me would be the best. Lets add that to your list when you get here! smoke .

    I should buy a simple kit. I don't mute the other strings when tuning. It gets a bit challenging trying to hear which one is out. I'll take my finger and hold one to help. I feel the beats, which helps.
     
  9. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    Incidentally, on that Chopin/Barenboim recording you will hear they did not dial the delay in very well for it being a DG recording. The piano does not sound like a Steinway D either to me but they could have eq'd it out too. I would not be surprised if this were a Bechstein or maybe a Pleyel (but not likely). Horowitz's Steinway D was tweaked to be a lighter sound and shallower key dip than nearly every other D due to the types of music he performed in the latter part of his life and rarely was it huge concerti. Some of this sound in the Barenboim recording might also be from too much close mic and so the bass strings don't get the opportunity to really develop properly.
     
  10. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    Unless the tuning is fresh it is nearly impossible to feather a piano back to a sweet tuning. The piano here in my house gets a lot of use. It's a 1908 52" tall vertical and is in need of overhaul. I can stand to play it for about 10 days after I tune it and it's about two or three weeks before I can't stand to even listen to someone else play it. I would tune it more often if it weren't for all my wife's nick nacks on the top of the damn thing. If I were in your house with that much playing going on by three or four folks, I'd be forced to tune it more frequently or go mad! I mean more than I am already ;-)
     
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    What do you mean, dial in the delay?
     
  12. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    The strike of the hammer should occur at the same time the rear mics would pick it up. There is a bobbling effect otherwise.

    Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Gotcha , that's what I thought but had to check.
     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Hmm, I'm thinking about the delay now. This is only a problem when using more mics like the U87 over the strings. So I adjusted that mic to align to the DPA's. When you said I needed a few more m sec, was that what you thought? What I did was just visually match the attack peaks.
     
  15. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    In your rig, visually matching the peaks is likely a viable solution. How far was I off? In lesser rigs and without a very large display it is difficult to get two tracks to line up that close in this kind of recording because it is so evident when it isn't. Maybe I need to plug the DAW into the 47" 3D Vizio?!!? Anyway, I usually time align via the control surface or the mouse with a looped section of the session. Even listening to the six second tidbits of those piano recording links you'll get the idea.
     
  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Gotcha, I'm on a 42 Vizio. In Sequoia you can see it all very well. I did the visual align and then went further as you suggest and listened to how it tightens up even more as I moved the track to taste.

    Very cool
     
  17. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    Are you using a delay VST like the ReaDelay (Cockos) or GDelay (GVST), or are you actually moving the track? I'm lazy, I just use a delay on the close mic'd track and spin the rotary on the control surface to adjust the timing. I think I wasn't very clear about that last night since by the end it was about 01:30 here and I had yet to go beat the neighbor's kid from running his bass tube in his -get this- white Dodge minivan. F'n kids need to get off my neighbor's lawn too!!!

    I used to use analog and digital delay boxes a ton when I was in the Corps running sound. I could run tiers of monitors out into the audience of band or top 40 band concerts and have the volume really low. Each rank would be delayed so that if you walked from the stage out to the last audience seat or the FOH you had seamless sound and yet weren't really aware of the speakers.

    Blah blah blah. That's all just to say it is faster for me to use a delay VST plugin than to move a track.
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    White mini van, that's so funny! Sounds like those are being replaced for the 1960's VW hippie vans lol.

    I move tracks manually. I only add plug-ins if I have to. I never knew something like that would even exist. I see Cucco is here today. He uses Sequoia, maybe he has a trick for this?
    I had a bit of a problem un linking the U87 track from the stereo DPA track though. I had to copy it first, then delete it and then paste it back in the same spot in order to move it. Other wise they would all shift together. Any tips there Cucco?
     
  19. Paul999

    Paul999 Active Member

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    I haven't listened to the new tracks although I will when I am in the studio later today. The conversation about time aligning is very interesting to me. I tend to not time align unless I am after as direct a sound as possible and wanting to loose much of the room. I tend to not time align tracks in these types of recordings letting the image soften with the combination of different mics. You guys are obviously competent with time aligning. I am wondering why are you both so much in favor of time aligning. I've never really experience the sonic impact as better just different and depending on what I am after is what I choose.
     
  20. TheJackAttack

    TheJackAttack Distinguished Member

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    If you don't align the close mic with the room mic and you have more than a couple feet of distance, you will get a weird Doppler effect and it will not sound clean in any circumstance. This is true whether the close mic is prominent or in a supporting role. It is always very evident in classical instrumental recording. It is less so in choral work simply due to the fact very few choirs sound crisp and tight. Anonymous 4 would be a different story but not many choirs can actually sing in modes either.
     

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