Mastering =Extrapolation.

Discussion in 'Mastering' started by audiowkstation, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    I wanted to share this simply because this is what we do. We extrapolate information to another realum.

    Basically, mastering is taking the pro format and turning it into the consumer format. It gets much deeper than that too!

    Say, you get a 2-bus that has different 2-bus dynamics from left to right channel.

    Example, the "rms" figure for the left is 16.2 and the peak is 0.6.

    The right is 18.7 (rms) and the peak is 0.0.

    This is when you extrapolate the values using science digitally and your ears to perform the unheard of....getting proper imagining when the mix is out of calibration. Center will lean way off on this. We fix that as well with Mono frequency eqtrapolation and even multitracking the 2-bus if many as 16 tracks out.

    Remeber, we mastering engineers also take things back to analog and restore upper lost harmonics from the original masters using analog eq and such.

    One helpful hint:

    The equilizer is your best dynamic restoration friend whether it be compression or expansion of dynamics, single band or multiband.

    Extrapolation exist if you do not have an undo. You are now playing chess and looking 10 to 20 moves ahead..all of them if outside the digital domain will cause certain problems for sure (more extrapolation).

    Minimizing this is the key..damn good mixes.

    Believe me, well established pros send bad calibration to the point of asking for a remix..or asking If I can remix.

    These days in indie, I want vox and instu. separate "two 2-buses" so I can make the warts diminish rapidly.

    Food for thought..back to the realum...

    I stress to studios worldwide, "calibrate your equipment scientifically with tones and the arts will be better off for it"

    Make sure that your wires to your outboard gear is in calibration. One dusty pot on one piece of equipment without metering in stereo can cause the major headaches us mastering engineers must contend with.

    Another example of extrapolation is speakers. On another forum here Cedar is stating something I know to be true and others are saying NO and not getting it. (reference is NS10 Sound)

    Believe me please, if NS10's sound nasty to you..something in your calibration and mix is ^#$%ed up!

    They are pro speakers not mastering speakers. Make them sound sweet in mixdown (pro stage) and then us mastering enfgineers have something viable to work with..and watch the cones on bottom. Rule of thumb is 1/2 (half) the cone motion for bass lines sustain, full for the kick. Simple! Make them sound like the best speakers (60hZ and up) you have ever heard!... then your mix is masterable because not only we know what we are getting but at least their is room for the conversion from pro to consumer..Cedar says it travels..he is right! it travels to the mastering engineer and many, many, many speakers. Listen to what the Man says! If anything sounds nasty on the NS10's , re-evaluate your mix and eq. SImple.

    Just do it. Work at it.

    Now, calibration. How many of you that mix actually put test tones through your metering system, use a VOM and measure voltages, use a impedance meter (toa makes a great one only $400) and check phase of your wires?

    Every studio should have an O scope and know how to use it!

    So we are talking about home based studios? Absolutley! For what an O scope and 9 hrs of research ( to learn it) cost, it is only equivalent to 10 days eating out at night.

    This is not a rant..but teaching. Teaching important skills that should be employed. It is only a snippet..but all of it is viable.

    Mostly, make your music vibe. IF you do not get chillbumps on your body from your work, seek help and make it so.
  2. Wow, Bill and Fats are both really making me want a pair of NS10's. So Bill, are you saying that minor imperfections in one's monitoring system can cause much bigger problems at mastering? So even things like slightly different resistance of cable and such? Also is there a standard dB level to make these adjustments? How do we check our monitors with an oscilliscope?

  3. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    The NS10's are microscopes for delicate sounds.

    Typical of a fresh driver on bass in a small sealed enclosure (6dB tolarance/octave rolloff below concurring scheme of driver/box)) and a precision tweeter and crossover..for 1 meter distance.

    If you are more than 39.37" from them you will hear the room..which is a problem/

    They have the power, near field to mask the room as long as they (speakers) are at least 39.37" from any boundaries.

    Also, cutoff accuracy is 60hZ.

    Other speakers are as well. Different Paramenters.

    Pro sound is microscopic and the consumer speakers that produce mush do not give you this ability in sensitive areas. They simply are distortions of the sound. NS10's can be as well...except it is a measured accurate device within parameters. That is why they are used by ENGINEERS>

    The (whatever) peak that was observed by someone posting was not done on precision voltage VS impedance meaurements..different amps, speaker wires, rooms, folks.

    I can make the Nautilus series (B&W) speakers +/- 30 dB outside approved measurements if not used within terms deemed approved.

    NS10's Work.

    I have NS1000M's...much more precise.

    The NS10 is a presicion device, our ears conform to fletchure munson we accpet accuracy and translation is another fact.

    It is about linear eff. from the spectrum.

    Can you meet me on msn messinger for a d load? of a mix I just did and respond to the sound on your set?

    I am audiowkstation
  4. chrisperra

    chrisperra Active Member

    Oct 24, 2002
    to bill.. if you were mixing on ns 10's for a while and then switched to say tannoy system 2 dmt's, or genelecs " this is a hypothetical situation the chances of you actually doing this are very slim."
    do you think you would want to change your mix?
    would your ears want to change the genelecs sound more towards the ns 10's?

    chris perra
  5. Sure Bill. I am on Windows messenger, or IanGuit on AOL instant messenger.

  6. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

    Mar 19, 2002
    I used my pair of NS10´s for just 2 albums and did not see the chance to get rid of them.

    Listening fatigue, 1k to 3k huge peak, lacks bass. Of course one shall add a sub or so..

    I was always in doubt with the kickdrum and vocals.

    The Monitor Ones are awful, tubbish at the high mids and cloudy at 60/160 hz but I have learned them in the last years. My mixs do translate well with them...

    What about these new MSp10´s? are they really an NS10 upgrade?

    I think we all must improve our room acoustics. Monitors are very personal, don´t you think Bill?

  7. themidiroom

    themidiroom Active Member

    Apr 20, 2002
    St Louis
    I love my NS10 monitors. I was glad to get a brand new pair right around the time they dicontinued them. I mostly use them for doing an initial mix. I have a tendency to mix lead vocals loud which makes the NS10s valuable. My other monitors are the Behringer B2031. They are a good match in that they have two totally different sounds. When I get mixes to sound good on both, they seem to translate to most anything else. To Bill Roberts, I think you and I might have been cut from the same mold. I'm constantly running tone and pink noise, analyzing rooms, making treatments and standing on my head (with no hands) trying to come up with the best possible audio. :w:
  8. daviddk

    daviddk Guest

    What I don't get is
    how people mix on NS10's
    without a sub.
    there is just no bass!
    I own NS10's and Genelex 1031's
    and never go to the NS10's because
    of the lack of bass and
    the hyped high mid freq!
  9. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    NS 10's are very sensitive to what I call (for lack of a better term) low-mid loading. That is where I find them to be of most value. I have found that it is easy to get stuff to sound good on bigger more full range speakers but when I hear it on NS 10's the MURF-MURF really stands out.

    I switch between 3 sets of speakers, NS 10's, Tannoy DMT II 12's and Auratones. No one speaker can tell you the whole story, but like a cop at an accident investigation, if you ask enough witness's what happened, you can piece an accurate picture together. It's the same with speakers, you need several points of reference to get to the truth.

    Do you want to trade those NS 10's for something? Or sell them? Used twice? I'll buy them, even with the shipping costs from would be a bad move on your part Bill says, learn to use them....

    ......... Fats
  10. daviddk

    daviddk Guest

    Are you guys using a sub with your NS10's?

    Like I said in my last reply I
    still find there is no bass but maybe I
    need to get a sub with a high cross over
    to hear more low end.
    I find that on my NS10's I will get it so
    I can hear the bass and switch to my Genelex
    and find that the bass is out of control.
  11. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    No I don't use a sub with the NS 10's. I just switch between the Yamahas and my Tannoy DMT II 12's. Bass o' plenty there ....... Since I have the Tannoys a sub would be redundant. I don't usually run into that problem but I'm real used to them. Usually what ever I get out of the NS 10's sounds good on the Tannoys and the Awfultones .......... Fats
  12. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

    Jun 29, 2001
    Darnit too much music and not enought time to keep up with the thread I started.


    Let me look at the questions and do an order.

    Ian forget the scope, use the ears.

    Make the NS10 the best sounding speaker you have ever heard from 58hZ it?


    I would average between them if necessary.

    I trust what works but it is more pudent to do different speakes after the final not during work. Extrapolate the ave. Trust the monitors that traslate as fats saysa what travels.


    You have seen my work live now as I adjust.

    Now you know.

    The MIDI Room

    Right on!

    You got to do what is it to it.


    It is an art of watching the cone excursion.

    1/2 the excursion for sustained down to 42 hZ for the kick..below that fq on sustained. 3/4 the kick punch and below 30 hz, fill excursion.

    Watch the woofers. good up to 100 then 1/16th the excursion to bass. You need to put pure 200watts a side to them and do not warp the cones/

    Fats, Above and what you said.

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