mic for recording bass

Discussion in 'Bass' started by Nutti, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    well to me that's like saying if your car doesn't have good brakes, drive slow.

    if your room sounds like crap, fix it. if it can't be fixed get a new one. don't drive a car with bad brakes.

    i suppose you could say a recording isn't a matter of life and death like two tons of hurtling metal is but i submit , tell that to the client who's files you just lost to a power failure.

    it can be a matter of life or death for a song or a career.


    mmmmmph! ghhhaaaa ! suicideahhhhhhhh!
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Recording Studio Gobo's

    ROTF, here comes the avatars again ! hehe. hilarious.

    More like, don't try and be a full production recording studio if all ya got is this for gobo's lol:

    No Bricasti will do you good for this gig :)

    slide_15117_211459_large.jpg
     
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    shocked-monkey.jpg
     
  4. pan60

    pan60 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Home Page:
    LOL
    I need brake on my tractor.
    And I get what you are saying ( to a degree ), but not everyone is going to get a new room.
    I say get the dimensions correct, even in a small room you can add a wall to correct the dimension even on a budget, and if it is small deaden it. That just make sense to me. A small room is not going to sound like a nice big open room. So kill it. I hate small rooms I do not like the sound.

    As for me, I would say a nice live room compared to a dead room would be more accurately described by saying a V-8 or a 4 cylinder. The V-8 can give you all you want, the 4 cylinder will just get you there.
     
  5. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    a small room doesn't need to sound dead. just neutral. you should never have to cover the whole room with foam / fiberglass or egg crates. lol. (remember the KORN radio studio on Hee Haw?)

    don-harron-lrg.jpg

    here's the issue; once you begin to deaden a room how do you know what frequencies you are murdering, which you are boosting and which ones you are just taming? you're still going to end up with modes / peaks / nulls. if the room has really bad dimensions you will still get comb filtering.

    the only reason people think absorption is the answer is because there are some unscrupulous hacks making a fortune selling fiberglass or membrane absorbers telling them they can put some lipstick on a pig and turn it into MILA KUNIS.

    View attachment 2596 View attachment 2597

    actually i think the best solution for small booths and rooms that exhibit bad sound reflections is high quality diffusion. but diffusers are very costly. once again though that is the only way to make a small space that sounds like ass through the mic usable.

    good ratios are essential, not just recommended. you might as well try to take a picture in a completely darkened room.


    this is one reason at the top of the thread i recommended a 421 for this app. 421's ar more directional than their counterparts for the most part and don't exhibit as much of a proximity / bass boost. to boot there's a handy little 4 way bass attenuation switch. get that edge from the mic and the lows from the di.

    well then, they should just be happy with what they have and not ask silly questions that have no real answers other than; "you can't get there from here" or "you're not going to hollywood". sometimes the answer is one that you just don't want to hear.

    no offense intended.
    mmmmph! arghhhhhh! suicide ahhhhhhhh!
     
  6. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Here is an example of a VO done in the VocalBooth. I can definitely hear the comb filtering and even guess this is a 4x4 booth. To me its way too small for singing. Hardly adequate for this app. If I was going to build a booth ( which I don't need because my control room rocks compared), it definitely would be larger.

    Just for giggles, I thought I'd have fun doing an A/B with my Bricasti and a bit of additional spreading with the hybrid rig.. vs dry. The object was about creating a room from a dry room. Without much effort I think I've done a fair job ( as bad as this VO sounds) simulating a larger room is easy. The comb filtering is less obvious with some simulation and a bit of EQ now, don't you think so? In a musical arrangement I think it would be even easier to faux it all in.

    thoughts?



    ( added a bit more presence)
     
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Don't know for certain but I believe this was recorded in a 5x5 "VocalBooth" Sounds pretty awesome to me.:

    Mariah Carey "Triumphant"

    Some testimonials again just for thought.
    http://www.vocalbooth.com/clients/client-testimonials/
     
  8. pan60

    pan60 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Home Page:
    Kurt Foster i am following and agreeing to a large degree. i tend to lean more to a dead room, but i also i should clarify want i would call a dead room. to me it is a room that has problem frequency tamed, rather peaks or nulls, and for that i like to do it would broad band abortion in combination with some targeted Acoustic Hellholm Resonance Absorption, i like a tuned chamber in a wall pockets for example. and i do not want to hear much in the way of reflections so i lean very much to dead. but not so dead as to make you dizzy dead, just to be sure. LOL

    anything thing is, maybe define what is a small room?
    For me a small room i'll say maybe it would be a 8' x 10' or less or in that general area. For these size rooms I would prefer total dampening.
    But should add, I would shoot the room and see what it is. Maybe add some small degree of reflection. I guess it would depend on the room?

    As for those who are starting out and have a very limited budget, I say get the dimensions correct and correctly treat the room. I like the dead rooms better. For me the only thing that beats a dead room an is a really really great room. Or my back yard.

    Agreed, but I see nothing wrong with making your room dead if it sealed and dimensionally correct.
    I want to encourage new engineers and yes let them know they need some larger rooms but in the meantime get them going and learning.
     
  9. hueseph

    hueseph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    What does this have to do with Godwins Law? It only takes one Nazi to let the prizoners out of the camp.duh
     
  10. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.

    i had to google godwins law.

    ROTFLMAO

    i didn't mention nazis or hitler ..... just germans.. lol.

    View attachment 2598
     
  11. Nutti

    Nutti Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Location:
    Finland
    wow guys! this really blew into a question about acustics :tongue: I'm planning to buy a decent mic for bassrecording, not rebuilding my studio :)
     
  12. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    sennheiser 421 for all the previously mentioned reasons.




    mmmph! ghaaaa! suicide ahhhhhhh!
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Looks like you got lucky on this thread! Not too often do we take members on a journey like this lol. I think I'll split this off into its own thread about a Bricasti.

    Everytime I listen to this clip it reminds me why I love live music, beautiful room acoustics for vocals that is. Hard to replace this ITB.
    http://recording.org/mobile-recording/48436-choir-where-are-the-mics.html
     
  14. dvdhawk

    dvdhawk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Location:
    Western Pennsylvania, USA
    $3700 reverb units not withstanding....

    For the self-proclaimed hobbyist with a $75 "crap t.bone kickdrum mic", my point was ( and still is ) once he's got a good PreAmp / DI track recorded bass track - he can always use a relatively inexpensive re-amp box to add a mic track without worrying about bleeding into the other tracks - allowing him to experiment. He indicates he's got a larger room, but doesn't use it for the bass because he's concerned about bleed. If his mic (new or old) sounds good in the booth, BONUS! If he wants something different, he can use whatever mic he likes, in front of whatever bass rig best serves the song, in whatever room/environment gives him the sound he's looking for. Jamming a big dynamic against the grill in a small booth is just one flavor.

    Nutti, almost all of the mics that have been recommended for micing a bass amp are also excellent kick drum mics. So if you like the idea of two in one, you can't go wrong with the AKG D112, AKG D12 (good luck finding a vintage D12) Audio-Technica ATM25 (has anybody compared the anniversary reissue ATM25 to the old one?), Sennheiser MD421, E-V RE20, E-V N/D868, Audix D6, Shure b52. They're all widely used for kick-drums and bass instruments of all kinds. If you'd like to experiment with re-amping they're not terribly expensive, and if you have any soldering skills at all - there are nice DIY kits available that are quite easy to build.
     
  15. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    and my point was, even a stock reverb plug-in ( or two and you know what you are doing) is adequate if a room is dead. It may not sound like the Bricasti or the perfect tracking room for bass but it will still work, or get you by.

    In fact, I don't know about you but the deader the bass the better I like it. Why? because I personally prefer adding reverb to bass over live room sound almost any day of the week. The more control the better. But that's coming at it from a commercial mixing and production POV. Some people don't care what they sound like. They just want their music to sound like a jam session or bar.

    all in good fun....
     
  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Not to flog a dead horse but I never get tired of discussion which ever way it goes. I love music so much I can hardly sleep and its been that way with me since I was a teenager.

    As an example of what I would avoid like the plague below, and because we are lurking around the home recording budget and reverb was mentioned, it would be pretty hard to take this sound to pro. So even though its over some heads now, or not exactly how we all build our studios, we are passing on addition info to help plant seeds for future engineers who aspire to be better.
    How do you ever get punch from that bass sound in a mix like this? And I suspect a mass amount of people lurking are not even aware of this.
    I hear the standing wave. But if that room was out, an engineer could actually do something with it. Nothing like having 180/240hz humming along in every song of the band. wwoooooooooo.

    If I was building a studio, I would have a dead room ready at all times. It would be the busiest room in the house.

    (Expired Link Removed)

    Bass Reverb shizzl - YouTube
     
  17. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    horsie, go horsie .... go! dead rooms or dead horses?

    well i personally can count the times i have used reverb on bass on one hand. when i mic a bass cab i usually mash the mic (sennheiser 421) right into the speaker grill. if spill is an issue then the previous remark about re amping the bass post tracking is the correct solution. but if i have a live band tracking at the same time in a well built room (without any acoustics issiues) i welcome the spill. spill is good!

    considering that, most of this conversation about acoustics and reverbs is pretty moot in my opinion. it would be interesting to hear in how many others are adding 'verb to bass tracks? that might go a long way to understanding why so many recordings sound like ass! just because you have deadened a room doesn't mean you have corrected it's standing wave and comb filtering issues. traps and absorbers followed by diffusion is the correct trail to follow. but you need to begin with a decent foundation in the first place. otherwise it's "LIPSTICK ON A PIG!"


    View attachment 2599


    ....... and to continue, making a room "dead" doesn't prevent standing waves. lots of dead rooms i have been in have very bad peaks and nulls and comb filtering issues.

    traps and and Helmholtz absorbers can help but the best way around these problems is good dimensions. i don't get why you all are so reticent to start off on the right foot in the fist place instead of taking a problem room and then throwing thousands at it to correct it and the winding up with rooms/ booths that are compromised. where's the common sense in that?




    mmmmph! ghaaaaa! suicide ahhhhhhh!
     
  18. BobRogers

    BobRogers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Location:
    Blacksburg, VA
    I'll put a touch of reverb on fretless tracks. In fact, I liked it so much that I added an EBS DynaVerb to my pedal board and I use it for fretless and standup. I don't recall ever using it on recorded P-bass.

    Sorry, I'm late to the discussion, but I think Kurt is overemphasizing room ratios in relation to room size. Even with "optimal" ratios, a small room has widely spaced resonant low frequencies. Ratios determine how evenly the modes are distributed. Size determines how widely. It's da law. So, to my taste, there are only two types of "booth size" rooms: bad and dead. I will beat the dead horse and prefer the dead room.
     
  19. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.

    hey Bob,
    i agree with you. my point is to start with good ratios in the first place then go for treatments / absorption, trapping and diffusers.


    mmmmmph! ghaaaaa! suicide ahhhhh!
     
  20. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Finally got Bob in here, right on!

    --------------------------

    Back to the pack. So... what was all the talk about room acoustics in a bass? My point from the beginning was to avoid it entirely and why Pan and I both emphasize the dead room benefits.
    But should I add some space in an electronic, hip hop, fretless or whatever mix, I would only want it via a processor. Not coming from some poor acoustic room for certain.

    I can guarantee Dave or Kurt, aren't even thinking about some styles of music. There is a huge percentage of readers lurking and possibly wondering WTF we are all talking about. Who is right? or how dated we are!

    Majority of topics go sideways on forums because no one confirms what type of studio and sound we are going for, coming from. One newbie could be headed in the electronic sound, another could be surprisingly headed towards an organic sound. Thus, when the OP asks a question, 50 engineers from all styles of music chime in and give their two cents. 50 year spread of styles all in a quagmire. Its really easy to understand this from my chair but for newbies, it can be a challenge sifting through it all. It can also create a lot of tension because I personally don't accept old school rules are gospel, and that doesn't sit well with some here. Who is tracking a big band orchestra these days? It sure ain't anyone in a home studio lol.

    Kurt had a full scale studio, took great pride in the rooms, I am a techno geek from a classical background who will pull out the electronics every chance I can get. Why? because I'm not going for that raw sound and have no interest in ever building a full size studio. I personally think they are a really bad investment but all the power to whomever takes one on.
    Kids are using electronics to make sounds and space. I've made a serious living using electronics so its really hard for me to swallow a lot of the theories here.
    Remy, Dave, Kurt, Moon, Bos, Bob, Hue, me ( sorry if I left you out) ... Its really wonderful but lol, a parallax view on this... its pretty comical, I hope you all know I never take offence or want anyone to think I am attacking you either. I just don't give up easy.

    Just thought I'd add that.

    Thank you Bob! I feel like my brother just rescued me. hugs to us all.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice