Monitoring at 16bits

Discussion in 'Monitoring' started by Alécio Costa - Brazil, Dec 5, 2002.

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  1. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2002
    Hi!
    I have seen some people commenting on it and I also do it during mastreing tasks along with an adat bridge/TASCAM DA40 machine...
    Do you guys monitor at 44k/16 bits so a :w: s to compensate for any minor losses, bass shrinking, anemic fades and so?

    Hope to hear from ya!
    Thanks
     
  2. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

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    I monitor the end result after the dither down for the reasons you mentioned. I actually bounce back and forth between the two.
     
  3. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Michael!
    However, it shall be slightly differnt listening to a chain that is at 24 bits/44khz where the final process is a dither algorithm/hardware that "shrinks" to 16 bits or listening to an all 16bit machine like an ordinary Cd player/ADAt OF?DAt, right?

    I know it shall sound a stupid question, but....]
     
  4. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I understand your last question.

    Are you listening through a 16 bit machine? Or are you comparing it to a 16 bit output.
     
  5. audiowkstation

    audiowkstation Active Member

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    Jun 29, 2001
    I think what he is asking is if it is a good idea to do your monitoring in the 16/44.1 so you can hear the final in the format it will be presented on VS listening to the 24/44.1.

    My answer is absolutley.

    As Michael mentioned, whatever bit rate and sample fq you are mastering in...you want your final to be a close to that as possable. What I do is direct A/B of the higer rez VS the 16Bit. When I am making my edits I am memorizing the sound Q of the higher rez and then I drop the edits in the 16/44.1K. After I am what I feel "finished" with the high bit, I make a clone of it and this is my original master. I then listen to the 16/ and I look at the definciencies. I then go back to my working 24 bit and make adjustments to it to make what my Original master sounds like but make them extrapolated for the 16/44.1K Doing this I have been able to burn a 16/44.1K that is virtually indistinguishable from the original master. It takes time and patience and Alécio, you have heard quite a bit of my work and that, speaks for itself. It is not perfect because nothing is..but this method is one way to get as fine a product on a burned CD as the Original master and it does translate. Their are serious noise shaping therories at play here. Difficult..but it works..as I say, you have heard it. Do you agree??

    Michael compares his 24 and 16 bit files as he mentioned. How he goes about it may different but the basic answer is that it is vital to compare and adjust.

    Try it. See if it works for you. Beware, it takes time and patience but with enough practice you can establish some presets that get you close then it is fine tuning all the way.

    Going to analog is another way.....(you heard that too)

    Sorry for typos..I have an appointment coming up soon..must get ready for it..
     
  6. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2002
    Thanks dear friends!
    In fact I do the following.....

    a) monitor My DAW outputs, which comes via 24bitADAT Bridge light piped to TAPE1/8 of th 02R

    b) I continuous record what I am doing at a DAT TAPE, a 16 bit DA40 DAT machine. With this I shall evaluate the evoultion of the job.

    Yes, Michael, somewhow I am comparing the result of the final Power Dither influence , bypassing it or not with the product prerecorded on a DAT machine.
    Is it too weird to all of you my friends?

    BTW.. Michael, when are you coming to Brazil again?
    It is nice to know that my US friends are discovering Brazil each time more and deeper

    LOL
    Nice weekend
     
  7. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    I am working in Cubase VST 5.1 (as many of you already know) at 24 / 44.1 . I am monitoring out of the spdif outputs on my Frontier Dakota into my Fostex CR200 CD Recorder which has a feature that automatically does sample rate conversion if it is presented with anything other than 16 /44.1 at the spdif input. From the CDR it is an analog chain to my Nakamichi 410 pre amp to the Haffler P3000. Cubase also has a dither on the master output and I have switched it on and off but I just don't hear any difference. It does seem to me that it is a good thing to monitor at the rate and bit depth that your product is going finally end up at. It only makes sense. ……………….. Fats
    _____________________________________________
    It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to ……
     
  8. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

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    I do the same as Michael and Fats using a Tascam CDRW-5k.
    --Rick
     
  9. Michael Fossenkemper

    Michael Fossenkemper Distinguished past mastering moderator Well-Known Member

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    The way I have it setup is I feed both streams to my console. 1 is the 24/96 feed pre everything, another feed 24/96 post limiter, and finally another post dither down. All monitoring off the same converters so I'm not compensating for converter differences. with a push of a button, I can flip through these and monitor my progress at every stage. I also have the console setup to monitor through CDR, and DAT to hear how different converters sound. Sometimes I will compensate for these, sometimes not. depends on the project. consumer D/A converters usually take a lot of detail away and are light on the low end. I think it's important to monitor all of these stages to really hear what everything is doing. In a DAW, this is really easy to setup but having a console of some kind to flip around easily will make it more effective.
     
  10. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    77 Sunset Lane.
    I am doing something similar to what Michael is doing. However I am using my Nakamichi 410 pre as the centerpiece in the monitor chain. (I covet the Inwards Connections monitor box) The Nakamichi is nice, all discreet components, no chips, from the '70's I think... but it runs at -10dB level and I really would like to be able to use it for a home stereo rig in the family room. The Nakamichi has a main input, two additional aux ins and a tape monitor loop. I have the CDR in the tape loop and my SR24 main outs into the main input, SR 24 control room out into aux 1 and the 1604 control room out into aux 2. All connections to the Nakamichi come up to a patch bay so I can switch them manually if I wish. I can switch the outs on the Cubase master out to 24 bit through the AI3 to the SR 24 channel inputs and monitor 24 bit, and from the spdif out on the Frontier Dakota to the Fostex CD200 CDR to listen to 16 bit dithered. (by either Cubase or the Fostex) This gives me multiple signal paths /data streams to monitor at the push of a button. This has been working very well ................. Fats _____________________________________________
    It's my opinion, I'll play with it if I want to ……
     
  11. Alécio Costa - Brazil

    Alécio Costa - Brazil Well-Known Member

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    Mar 19, 2002
    Comparing the 24bit/44k or 48k to the 16bits out..
    bass shrins very litle, stereo image a litle bit poorer..

    DAt x PT MIx (adat bridge lightpiped to 02R)
     
  12. mukshoe

    mukshoe Guest

    great info guys.....here is a question?
    How would i do this with a digi 001 and a dat 1 tascam dat....problem is i don't have a board ...so switching between feeds to my powered monitors would be difficult.....neat idea, excellent.....glad to look over your shoulders ...thanks mark :confused:
     
  13. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    77 Sunset Lane.
    Mark,
    How do you monitor your DAT machine? That's the path... SPDIF out from the 001 to the DAT and monitor the DAT.. With a Tascam you may need to put a tape in the transport and press rec pause...You need some type of master switching device in the monitor chain, read my last post (2 back). ..... Fats
     

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