Need to eliminate sound from speakers in mic

Discussion in 'Microphones (live or studio)' started by MC208, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    I'm shooting an instructional video with a guitar, voice and piano. Sound is live, i.e. no headphones. Guitar and Piano come out of the speakers, but the mic does not. I have a RODE NTG-1, but no matter where I position the speakers, the RODE picks them up, a lot! (trying to position the speakers in the dead area of the polar pattern appears to do nothing).

    I also have a Shure SM58 that does a great job of not picking up the speakers, but it seems to not be nearly as sensitive as the RODE, and doesn't pick up the voice very well unless the subject's lips aren't more than a couple inches away. Whereas with the RODE, the mic could be up to 2 feet away and still sound great. I also notice when I up the gain using the Shure, there's a lot more noise and rumbling heard, practically non existent with the RODE, and I don't have to increase the gain anywhere as much to get good signal from the RODE.

    So the question is, is there a mic that can do both:
    1. Allow me to position the mic just above the picture frame so it doesn't have to be an inch from his lips
    2. Not pick up the sound coming from the speakers that the musicians need to hear?

    I came into the Shure mic by accident, so I don't know it's history of usage. Is it possible that there's something wrong with the Shure or is what I described the norm (lips must be no more than a couple inches away to get good signal)?

    Thank you for any suggestions!!
     
  2. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

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    The way to isolate bleed is with relative distances. The SM58 (or just about any mic) an inch or two away does that. Because of the inverse square relationship between distance and power, each time you double the distance you need 6dB more gain to get the same level. Of course pickup pattern plays into that to some degree. The Shure has a standard cardioid pattern that's fairly wide while the Rode has a supercardioid pattern that's quite narrow. Nonetheless, from the mic's perspective at that distance there's not enough difference in volume between the voice and the speakers. Possible solutions would be using a headset mic or replacing the speakers with in ear monitors.
     
  3. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    I'm assuming that the vocalist is one of the two musicians and that the voice you are trying to record is an integral part of the song and not some instructional voice-over.

    You've not said much about the acoustics of the room you are recording in, and how much the video aspects dictate the positioning of performers and their respective microphones.

    Have you thought about using the voice as a guide vocal when recording the instruments and video and then dubbing the real vocal on top with no camera running and where you can use headphones to replay the previously recorded track?
     
  4. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    SM58 do not introduce noises unless the preamp isn't up to it. Are you recording with the internal preamp of the camera or some external gear ?
    If the voice isn't singing, I'd look into a Lavalier mic. You can hide them behind clothes and even if the sound quality is not as high as a SM58, at least you degree of seperation will be better. I have some fair results with the Tascam DR-10L. (which has is its own recorder as well)
     
  5. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    Thanks for the replies, let me clarify. As I mentioned this is a guitar instructional video. There's no singing. Only talking and playing. The guitarist plays something, the piano player gives him a chord, and then the guitarist explains. So again, no singing, only talking while playing the guitar. The environment is a residential (finished) basement, carpeted and sheet rocked. I'm putting either the Rode or the Shur through a Presonus Tube-Pre before going into the mixer, and giving it some gain on the tube-pre. There's plenty of power. Why does the Rode pick up the speakers and the Shure doesn't? I have an old lavalier, but it's a pain in the butt. Open to a small headset mic if it can accomplish what I need. The mic on a boom is most ideal as there's no wires or anything hanging to get in the way. Would there be a way to use the Rode mic without it picking up the speakers? I tried positioning the speakers 90 to 115 degrees according to the pickup pattern of that mic, tried turning them away, all different ways in that position, but the mic picks up no matter where I put them or how I turn them. That's why I think the Shure would be better, if I could just get it to pick up the voice more without having to be a couple inches away at most.
     
  6. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    As Marco mentioned, the principal reason the Rode is picking up more external sound than the Shure is simply down to distance from the sound source. In addition, your description of how the room is furnished would indicate that there will be sonic reflections from many of the room's surfaces. A microphone is much more sensitive to any sounds in the pickup area than the human ear followed by the processing and extraneous sound rejection system in the brain.

    I can get a picture now of how your video is put together, but what is being played through the speakers? Do both the acoustic guitar and the piano not have enough native sound not to need amplifying when recording the video?

    I use a Sennheiser ear-mounted (headset) microphone with a transparent voice tube and a hip-attached radio pack for vocalists who need to move around a stage but not appear to be using a microphone. It's very effective from a audience point of view, and it's possible that sort of thing could work equally well in a video.
    Lavaliers are supposed to be positioned on the lapel, not elsewhere on the body.
     
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  7. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    :LOL:

    I'm looking at the idea of a headset mic instead. I understand that there are some that aren't omnidirectional, just trying to find one that can get the job done without costing hundreds of dollars.
     
  8. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

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    Yes, a more complete description of the intent of the video's intent and process would help.
     
  9. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    It's pretty simple, guitar, voice and piano. It's instructional, not performance. Guitarist talks and plays, and piano player gives him chords when he needs them.
    The two musicians listen to each other through speakers in the room. Only want the mic to pick up the guitarist's voice, not what's coming out of the speakers. The Shure does a great job of not picking up the speakers, but not a great job of picking up the voice from a couple feet away. The NTG-1 does a great job of picking up the voice from a couple feet away, but it also picks up the speakers way too much, no matter where I position them.
     
  10. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    So that the guitarist and piano player can hear each other. They do not want to wear headphones
     
  11. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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  12. bouldersound

    bouldersound Real guitars are for old people. Well-Known Member

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    They're in the same room together. Why can't they hear each other?

    As has been indicated several times, unless there's a substantial proportionate difference in distance between two sources and the mic, the mic will pick up both sources. Placing the mic closer to the desired source is the solution if you must have speakers.
     
  13. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    Just ordered the Shure WH20, someone on Amazon told me that they are a drummer and sing, and use it and it doesn't pick up their drums, so that sounds like a good test to me! I will report back how it works out for my application.
     
  14. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    Not to brag, the Presonus Tube-Pre doesn't have enough clean power to have the shure SM58 at 5 feet of the vocal. You need to be within 6 inches of it to get good isolation..
    A head set is a good alternative too.. BUT :
    Could it be simpler to not play and talk at the same time ?? Just saying ;)


    I have an old lavalier, but it's a pain in the butt.
    :ROFLMAO:
     
  15. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

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    yeah preonus stuff is decent, but it their pres get noisy/ugly when used at hi gain settings.

    this is what i was wondering. cant you just mulitrack, and edit or gate out the mic your not using. ie mute the vocal mic when guitar is playing and vice versa?
     
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  16. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    How in the world would I be able to do that? He's talking and playing and talking and playing constantly
     
  17. Boswell

    Boswell Moderator Distinguished Member

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    It comes down to this: video is king, and audio has to subjugate. The compromise here is for the performers to make do with hearing the natural sound from the two instruments and not have monitor speakers blaring away ruining the audio from the microphones.
     
  18. MC208

    MC208 Active Member

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    Yes exactly! Well the Shure that I ordered should be here today, so I'm hoping it helps the situation.
     
  19. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

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    I'm doing this all the time..
    I record video and audio seperatly in multitrack via my DAW (interface and computer) Next, I mix the audio in my DAW, with automation for volumes etc..
    Then I combine audio and video in a video editing software (Adobe Premiere in my case)
    It's a bit more time consuming, but I get the full control of the audio and video.
    Of course I'm a audio recording guy before doing video.. so I had all the tools.. ;)
     
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  20. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

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    in addition to what marco said which is the best advice, you could also run a noise gate which will automatically mute and unmute the mics when it detects a sound source, or you could run a small mixer and tap the mute button. broadcast studios have a 'couch button' to mute coughs momentarily. if your handy you could probably have a footswitch for mute. you could also probably to it via a midi controller in the DAW.
     

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