New member and yes, another behringer question

Discussion in 'Mixing & Song Critique' started by Paul Andrews, Jan 6, 2004.

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  1. JeffreyMajeau

    JeffreyMajeau Active Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Most of the small format mixers you see on the market are copies of the Mackie paradigm. There really wasn't a mixer like that on the market till Mackie released it in the late '80s/early '90s.

    You look at an already inexpensive product, like the Mackie, and then compare it to the price of a Behringer knockoff and SOMETHING has to give! Dollars to donuts, the Behringer has cheaper electronic components, which means lower performance.

    Yes, their prices are good. Yes, their gear works. No, I don't own any. I don't intend on owning any of their gear any time soon, either. I'd rather buy a used 01V than a new DDX mixer. I'd rather support a company that tries to develop it's own stuff than leeching off others. Their DI boxes look an awful lot like their competition's as well.

    Behringer gear is good as a stopgap, but I'd prefer to save up and suffer a little while longer and buy something better.

    The Neve clone thing is a little ridiculous, too - how many 35 year old console preamp clones can the market support? Does EVERYONE but me really desire all that color all the time? I don't know - I guess it's the field of dreams thing. You build a better mousetrap and people want it.
  2. AudioGaff

    AudioGaff Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    Silicon Valley
    I don't keep track of the model numbers of the crap they make. I know that when I see one in a music store and it has the same layout, features, same pots, knobs, knob colors, faders, same amount of LED's, ect... that is hard to deny that I am looking at a near perfect copy.

    Shortcuts. As in if they can use two screws instead of three they do. As in if they can sub any cheaper part that is anywhere close in function reguadless of how that affects the sound quality or product reliability, they do. As in if they can buy and use parts that other companies have rejected for not meeting their basic performance criteria, they do. Many more examples can be cited as well.
  3. AudioGaff

    AudioGaff Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    Silicon Valley
    Well, some of the best music every perfromed and recorded was done on Neve consoles where every vocal, instrument and channel was used with that type of color and nothing else. But I do agree, that the clone thing is way over done. Rupert Neve himself is said to be jumping back in with improved versions of his old stuff so he can also cash in and mabe upset the clone makers.
  4. macmod

    macmod Guest

    Erm, one thing i don't get:

    B. clones a product according to some, that would mean that they've actually bought the A-brand super trooper device, openened it and replicated it using the same components...this would be design theft indeed which is bad. These people subsequently say that 'it's a piece of cr*p"...Here's my problem: its one way or the other cant be cloned and cr*p simulteanously can it?

    just for arguments sake,
    best regards,
  5. AudioGaff

    AudioGaff Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2001
    Silicon Valley
    Yes and No. First off, they are copying and cloning stuff that is considered crap by most professionals to start with so it never gets any better. With something like the Mackie clone mixers, first it is copied/cloned and this may or may not be hurried to market. People compare them and get the buzz going that they are as good as who they copied from, send some out for reviews. For the other times when they wait or soon after while the first batches are shipping, the shortcuts I mentioned are implemented. If you'll notice a great deal of the B-boys models don't last very long in their product line before another model quickly takes it place. They keep tweaking the design and product with as many shortcuts and cutbacks as they can to squeeze out the profit margin yet still have you believe that the product is as good or better than the product they stole, and copied from. This is also another way to avoid geting punished for their crimes as by the time the legal actions can be implemented, they have made enough changes and versions that they now have a different product but that is still based on the copied/cloned design.
  6. Paul Andrews

    Paul Andrews Guest

    Thats the kind of honest, informed, objective comment based on experience with a product I was looking for.

  7. Dr.Blackwell

    Dr.Blackwell Guest


    [ January 07, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Dr.Blackwell ]
  8. Paul, it seems to me that you don't really want the truth on this issue.

    The way you're positioning yourself, it sounds like you want someone to say "Yeah, Behringer's great, I use it all the time"

    You're obviously agitated about the fact that the majority of people around here dislike Behringer, and you refuse to accept the reasons.

    Mackie brought into that UK court a complete design spec of the 8-bus that Behringer ripped off. They also brought in one of the series that Behringer reverse engineered. One of the first and most damning pieces of evidence against Behringer was that the lot from which Behringer's subject for reverse-engineering had a design flaw on the PCB - and Behringer copied that design flaw in their own "version" of the mixer.

    But you know what? I'll do you one better. I'll show you a couple of pictures of what Behringer did to Ebtech (I already explained why they aren't suing, if you can't accept that reality then you really don't know anything about big corporations and the kind of business they do)

    Here ya go.

    The original Ebtech Swizz Army 6 in 1 cable tester:

    The Behringer CT100 cable tester:


    Now you tell me, Paul. What's the damned difference between these two units?

    One's $99.99, the other is $39.99. One is Blue, the other is Gray. One says Ebtech, the other says Behringer.
  9. Paul Andrews

    Paul Andrews Guest

    Hi Griffinator
    I'm not denying what people say ..I just ask for proof of their statements.

    I'm not looking for people to say Behringer is good stuff .. I dont care whether it is or not.
    I dont own any and I'm not looking to buy any

    The mixer thing just doesnt seem to hold up... I saw some stuff on the law suit and there were over 100 companies cited, Samson was another but only one seems to get the bashing... I dont know if its justified or not, I was interested and still am, why one of one hundred seems to be singled out when Mackie seemed to have cause to think others were doing the same thing.

    When someone tells me something is a clone of something else and I ask which one they think is the clone... I get no straight answer...

    Or I get an answer which says they are a clone but they are not as good and probably worse and that they must do this and must do that... all without proof or even without people having even taken a look at them..

    In the law suit Simon Ash from Samson even said Mackie were trying to steal Behringer designs so I dont know what the truth is... and NO I dont accept any of it but I do want to hear what people think, just dont ask me to agree with something I can't qualify to myself.

    I've seen lots of claims that people say Behringer are guilty of Slave labor, cloning, cutting corners..etc... nothing wrong with those opinions, but when I ask how they know I dont get any straight answers.

    Yes I can see those 2 items are very alike I dont know whats in em but outside they look almost identical apart from the color and a couple of other bits..

    Not sure what other designs you can use for a 6 in 1 cable tester but if I was copying one I would try to make it look different to the competetor just on the basis of not wanting it to be labelled as a copy.

    You seem to think I'm on the side of Behringer ..I'm not .. I'm not on anybody's side or looking for endorsements of any product, If a court of law proved they had stolen a patent design that would be one thing if someone on a web site tells me so and then wont substantiate that claim thats less convincing.

    I just think here where some people ARE knowledgable there should be perhaps a little more objectivity when it comes to making a statement on a particular subject, than saying well they must have done this and that because they have to be doing something....

    Please dont expect me to ever take that arguement as a reasonable one...

    If I told you Behringer designed that 6 in 1 first and Ebtech copied it you'd rightly ask for proof of such a statement... if I wrote back and said well they must have cos they look the same and they are too small a company to have thought of it themselves...blah blah blah... you'd dismiss what I said as rubbish.... those are the answers I get when I ask for clarification on some of the claims against Behringer... what do you expect me to do? ... just accept them without asking for further info?

    Will never happen
  10. Kent L T

    Kent L T Active Member

    Oct 28, 2003
    Home Page:
    I became a member of this newsgroup to leave mediocrity behind. I don't care about mediocre products any more because I have used and owned them and I know they don't sound like what I want my gear to sound like. If anyone else wants to use mediocre equipment and produce mediocre sounding great songs fine but I would prefer to be educated on what will make great sounding great songs. I would prefer if the names B**inger, A*t etc... were never even mentioned at all because that is another worthles post that I have to read through on my quest for knowledge. I will be sorely disappointed if the people here that I have come to respect start talking about junk(my opinion just happens to be a fact too).
    Resident student,
  11. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    It sure seems like you are going to awfully long lengths to defend Be****ger and it appears to me that you started this thread just for that reason. I think you started this as an effort to try to salvage Be****ger's reputation on this site.

    RO has a reach, far and wide and it has been proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that events here do have an effect on the sales of manufacturers. I do not think it is beyond the realm posibility that someone from Be****ger would come over here to try to do this. I know for a fact that this has happened with other manufacturers.

    You ask for proof but you know (or have already been told) that a lot of that info has been deleted off the web as part of the out of court settlement between Samson, Be****ger and Mackie. IMO, this is a dead issue. Let's lock this puppy and move on ....
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    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

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