New Toft Console Setup vs New ITB Setup Help me decide

Discussion in 'Consoles / Control Surfaces' started by ChrisH, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    There's some truth *right* there.

    Mind you, these days I'm using wacom cintiq wherever possible, rather than mousing around.

    Hmm, for $17k, you should probably be looking for a calrec or a neotek or something. Don't buy new!

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Calrec-T-Series-Mixing-Console-Desk-/360382628289?pt=US_Live_Studio_Mixers&hash=item53e87a81c1 y'a get me blud! (bit scary... but nice if/when it works)

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Calrec-C2-Production-console-mixing-36-channel-Mic-pre-amp-compressor-Eq-/290823009939?pt=UK_Mixers&hash=item43b666f693 slightly less hard line.

    __

    Perhaps amek...

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  2. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    Erm.

    ___

    Those desks I just posted are *big*, right. You'd need somewhere to put one of them and you can't just take it out to a session easily...

    But the point is that you can get incredible kit for (relatively) peanuts these days. You'd be mad to buy a new desk.
     
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Oh, I know Pro Tools / digidesign, Sound Designer started long before 888/ 16/ 5.0. I owned an Emulator II and Emu and Sound Designer did something there. Same time Chris Stone was developing the library for E-Mu. I'm aware of the history.
    In 98, it finally looked like it would work for guys using MPC 60's.

    I don't think I'm far off with Apple though. But who knows their fate. I think an open source OS is very possible.
    My point in the PC/ Apple mention is , you don't need a Mac it if you are moving towards Reaper, Samplitude or Sonar. They work great. And the money saved buys you a nice piece of gear.

    PS: And I can't get my Mac to stop calling home with certain software . Please share what you do to turn it all off? PC's are simple.
     
  4. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    Little Snitch, Radio Silence, Hands Off, Tcpblock.

    There's various built in firewalls, too, the easiest being available in system preferences under the security button.

    If you really want to get militant you'll like Water Roof, which is a GUI frontend for ipfirewall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is baked into OSX.
     
  5. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    don't buy a console. period. there isn't anything in the small format area that sounds good ... nothing! i don't care what anyone says. without a huge outboard power supply these little desks don't have the voltage swing or overall current to do the job. if you like the sound those things get good for you but they will not compete side by side with a Neve or API or even an old MCI like i had.

    The closest thing to a decent small format board i ever heard was the old Trident 65s ... table top but big power supplies. Gabe Roth hs one. anything that sounds good will be a maintenance pig ... it goes with the territory.

    look to something like the SSL X Rack or SPL Neos summing mixers if you need faders and tactile feel ... of course this is just my opinion. food for thought.
     
  6. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    It isn't advertised, but the majority of OSX is already open source.
     
  7. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Exactly.

    I plan on upgrading to that NEOS one day.
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Thanks for the tips. I have Little Snitch.
     
  9. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    I agree that heavy duty rolls-royce 70s style is a good sound, real Trident A range... great! But I don't have problems with more modern mixing desks, and that'll do tactile stuff and preamping / mixing to a decent standard. Anything that cost house prices new will work better than OK, particularly Calrec.

    Also, there's a good few more '70s flavoured things such as FS: TWEED/NEVE 20/8 MIXING ANALOG CONSOLE $27,000.00 « auxsend.net/consoles but it starts getting into serious budget. In many ways, the fact that the current fashion dictates that the 80s and 90s consoles aren't super desirable is something that one can exploit. Sure the sound is neutral, and you shouldn't start overdriving things too much, but AMEK ain't M-audio, that's for sure.

    But certainly, looking at the epic physical size of the kind of consoles you can buy for a small budget, I'd be inclined to save most of the money, suggest something like a soundcraft 600, a few bits of outboard, some nice pres / dynamics / EQ, and 24 proper converters. Done right, that woudn't be expensive. Desk EQ is just too useful, it doesn't have to sound "magical" it should just, basically, EQ stuff.

    I'm just making the point that lots of consoles are *cheap* now, thanks to all this digital behaviour. Some are considered "vintage", but many are classified "obsolete", and coming out of facilities, just like the 70s Neves were in the 80s. Those are the bargains, especially considering the "state of the recording industry". I'm not seriously suggesting the guy puts that monster calrec T series in his house, I'm just pointing out that if he felt mad enough to do it, he probably could. That's *not* a small format mixer.

    SPL Neos, that's more than half of the budget, and it's got no pres, and no EQs. Rather have a Thermionic Culture Fat Bustard and keep some money if going down that road. I wouldn't recommend spending $10k on faders and 8 or 12 tracks of summing in this case, though.
     
  10. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    And are you all talking recording or mixing here? What if the OP or majority only need 8 or 16 ins max?
     
  11. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    i agree ... Cal Recs are good boards. so are DDA's i guess is should have mentioned those lol. ... still expensive and take a ton of care and real estate. not too many who frequent these BBs can afford that.



    i guess so but in my mind why have all that hardware to keep in usable condition just for some eq (which you can do itb) and some faders / routing? even an old SC ( i have never liked those things) will have maintenance issues. unless you're tech savvy or you have deep pockets and live in an area where you can get good tech help it will be a nightmare at some point, not to mention all the interfacing and patch bays needed to fully exploit it.. imo, better to buy something new and cutting edge like the NEOS or th X Rack that you can get factory support and parts for.

    Chris; i'm always speaking of both tracking and mixing ...
     
  12. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    Another example of a perfectly usable console with... just a few mic pres: (Dead Link Removed)
    [/URL]
    For the same price as 12 channels of vintech neve 1073 clones.
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    I know you are Kurt, its the rest I'm wondering about, and what I always wonder when we have these chats about Mixing OTB, none of you have any experience in hybrid summing. Lots of recommendations on consoles but because I have had both, I wouldn't waste a a dime on a console today. They're not designed to work well with a DAW. Now the NEOS is a different story.


    EDIT:

    But I'm looking at all this from Mixing

    but,

    I'd still rather buy 24 outboard pre's over a console.
     
  14. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    Again, really can't complain about the prices.

    (Dead Link Removed)

    56 channel mixer, two patchbays. Few rough edges, ready to be modified and hot-rodded. $5750 buy it now.

    Less than 8x vintech 1073 clones, at $3k per rack unit of 4 pres.

    ___

    Obviously these massive consoles are for doing big sessions. If you're doing overdubbing at home, rather than recording a whole band of substantial scale, this is probably a bad idea. For mixing, probably a little overkill. Definitely won't run out of channels.

    If you've got a rack of pres, yes it'll be more portable, so those big, heavy consoles aren't ideal for location work, unless you're going to buy a truck to put it in as well.

    There are smaller format desks with similar sound quality, which are equally reasonably priced, and that's what I'd really recommend. Something for $1500-ish. Quite a lot of broadcast consoles are out there, saw some great little desks going shockingly cheap at the BBC world service sell-off auctions, and there's loads more radio stations and broadcast studios which are going over to all-digital. Broadcast consoles also usually have a space in the middle which is the perfect place for a screen and keyboard. There's lots of proper quality pre-digital stuff going surplus/spare which could easily be repurposed. Give it a bit of a hack, new patchbay, maybe change the routing a bit.

    Also, there doubtless are people buying up these desks, just like they were buying Neves 30 years ago, and parting them out, putting the modules into lunchboxes with new power supplies. Seems to happen a lot to Calrecs.

    ____

    It depends how many tracks of summing, and how many tracks of front end one needs, really. Whether it needs to be portable, whether it's for tracking, mixing, overdubbing. Etc.

    However, I'm convinced that second hand consoles are definitely much better value for money than new "vintage king" boutique retro-clones, or Toft made-in-China desks.
     
  15. bishopdante

    bishopdante Guest

    I need to stop looking at this stuff... Miscellaneous equipment as available < I so would. Maybe split it up & box it up...
     
  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Like the majority, you are missing the entire concept with this beast and hybrid summing done right all together. You don't want pre's, eqing, trannies etc. Fat Bustard is not on the mark either. No use for it. Might as well buy a console. But I was confused with the concept until I set up my rig.
     
  17. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    All I have to say beyond this is ( cause its going over heads ..), I am soooooooo glad I didn't waste my money (life) buying a dated console of any sort. And I have the money to be that stupid.
    Other than the wonderful eye candy and old school workflow, the convenience for large project like freelance record companies bringing in their hired guns ... and live work for touring, they are a complete and utter waste of money! A HUGE step backwards in all aspects if you are using a DAW as your capture device.. Tape and a console, okay, I'lll choke that one down if you stave me for a month ( processing drums I suppose) but still so backwards. See MixDream or NEOS direct outs if you really need tape.

    If you want killer sound going in and out, and the option to choose the flavour of the session and/or track(s), this can be accomplished via tracking through many Neve or API strips like this one example Vintech X73i | Sweetwater.com , and most definitely during your mixing stage which is where it really gets fun and you all of a sudden go..... wow.

    We are all better off going hybrid and investing in premium outboard pre's for their key elements during track or adding into a passive device like a Folcrom, a few selected comps like some 1176 or LA2A's and letting the DAW do the rest.
    Adding choice hardware in the processing chain together with an ultra high headroom analog summing system, which doesn't add tranny distortion to the chain is the only way I would ever recommend someone starting up and going Pro today.
    Do that, and you are golden beyond the majority ever realize. Otherwise, stay in the box, buy the pres you need, use good or stellar conversion ( not average) and save your money, tears and headaches.

    Traditional consoles and all that comes with those are a dated concept taking a HUGE step backwards from today's highly advanced direction in modular sound engineering.
     
  18. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    yeah but it won't sound as good as the Neve. plus that's an FOH board ... not really that great for recording. you would have to use it in a split configuration ... eeechhh!




    again, that thing looks like a maintenance nightmare. you must be able to work on these things yourself. a lot of us can't ... tech time when i closed my place was $80 per hour and the guy charged me for drive time 60 miles each way. i was forking out over $300 a month to keep the place up and going. that was fine as long as there was business but as we all know the bottom dropped out on that in 2001.

    i have seen pictures of the OP's set up. he is limited on space. i doubt that anything larger than a 16 channel TOFT would fit. that's why i suggested the NEOS. what i like about the NEOS is 120 volt rails. serious headroom. just add a lunch box or two of APIs and compressors / eq's and he would be set. absolutely more cash than the TOFT but at least that would sound good. if someone had some deep pockets, i would suggest an API 1608.
     
  19. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Now you getting it Kurt! The NEOS is what I have and more. Its the King.
     
  20. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    well i'm not really getting there lol but i do see ther writing on the wall and the NEOS and the SSL X Racks seem to be the only thing in a small format that pushes out a big board sound with depth and dimension.

    my next system is still going to be itb / laptop / StudioOne DAW with a small USB 2 interface. an extension of my home entertainment system. i will be able to sit on the couch and play around / record / mix, tweak the TV audio, play my vinyl.

    i also thinking of setting up a small "radio station" to stream podcasts or even go "pirate" broadcast so i can inflict my George Jones, Merle Haggard and Beatle records on the world. i'm not going to ever get real serious into a studio again. i'm just getting too old and fat to be crawling around setting up mics and patching for sessions. plus there's no money in it any longer. it's a young persons game for sure.
     
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