Orban 622B Parametric EQ

Discussion in 'Graphic / Parametric EQ (analog)' started by Sean G, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

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    Congrats Sean!!!!!! Can't wait to hear whacha think.
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    well done!
     
  3. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Gents...the proof will be in the pudding so to speak.
     
  4. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

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    All about the wire and what happens in the real-time realm when things go through the circuit. I have AT LEAST five different emulations of an LA 2A as well as an LA2A and a Drip Opto6 (La2A clone) and soon to have another stereo LA2A clone in hardware. The ONLY emulation that comes anywhere near the hardware is the UA LA2A. I like stacking it on vocal tracks tracked through a hardware LA2A at the mix.

    When considering what hardware you want and especially if you are looking to keep the rack at a working level, there are lots of choices. A lot of them will make you smile. Only a few of them will make you say instantly, "There it is...."

    So you go into a nice studio with a great console and racks and racks of outboard to track some songs. The engineer puts selected tracks through track numbers that already have all the tie lines in place. You look around and notice there are a multiple number of LA2A's, 1176's, Pultecs and API 550's. There are other classics, but usually only one of each. You won't often see three or four API 2500's or Neve 33609's in a room for example.

    There's a reason. Still. Today. From devices brought out in the 1960's. Pultec's are even older. And here we are. Already 16 years into the 2nd millenium and we haven't gotten all that far with what our ears want to hear.

    About the Warm stuff. The Pultec emulations are very good. I own a WA 76 and like it alot. I think it doesn't have the headroom a real 1176 has, but it is MORE than usable at a very very good price. So, it could be a bargain for what you get.

    I have 16 channels of hardware compression. I track most things that come through my room. Sometimes the patchbay is full. Other times its all about the pre choice and mic placement and no need to compress going in. That being said, the ONLY compressors I could NOT do without are the LA2A's and the 1176. The others are nice too and have a certain character. The 502 Grace is a wonderful optical comp. Sweet and really fast. The Retro Doublewide is an excellent comp for voice and guitar. The SC2 1.07 Meek is sorta a specialty. The modded ART VLA is wonderful on taking the edgy attack out of a bright acoustic instrument and to fatten horns. The DBX 160SL is a great drum overheads comp as well as spoken word.....but they are all specialty items as opposed to the LA2A and 1176 circuits.

    I think that looking at the type of circuit that creates the compression, the speed and release is the real key to choosing what is best for a room. Optical, FET, and Vari-Mu are all different animals.
     
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  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the great post Dave.

    I never explained this well so I'll try again.
    What I meant to say is:

    A real UA LA2A doesn't sound as nice when mixing OTB "hybrid" as it does when used tracking the original source."tracking vs hybrid"
    You'd think it would but to my tests I could always capture a better sonic LA2A print to waiting to use it on the same source after the print. DA > UA LA2A > AD. (n) It was still better than emulation but not as lush as on the AD.
    Make more sense?
    I wonder why this is? Or... isn't this interesting.
    Got to love great monitoring and A/B/C ability to compare.
    The only answer I have: Tracking with tube gear is better sounding to OTB mixing. Converters have a ways to go because something definitely gets lost in every conversion. Hybrid mixing is cool but tracking "better" and avoiding conversion is even cooler.

    AD is still better than DA AD which makes me believe hybrid mixing isn't as good as ITB. Once ITB, stay ITB. And some emulation isn't as good as the real deal. Hardware LA2A and Pultecs are two products that come to mind.
     
  6. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    maybe it's because the a /d conversion degrades the audio?
     
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  7. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts too. And I have used some of the most prestigious mastering grade converters to date. Which is why tracking "best we can" and "once in the box, stay in the box" is without doubt the best way to sonic excellence. I don't care what hybrid system if available, nothing is better than "less conversion the better".

    Hybrid mixing is cool and very fun but until converters are significantly improved, hybrid mixing (DAAD) is not sonically better to my ears.
    That being said, I currently still feel even though there is a degradation in a DA AD pass, and that round trip processing is long past what I would ever do again, the two DAW system is still worth every cent. One analog process carefully done at the end of a stereo mix adds just enough "swing" to a mix that the character out ways the degradation.

    imho
     
  8. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

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    until we can get 500 dB of dynamic range any kind of capture will be degraded. that's why God makes compressors.
     
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  9. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.

    To add or clarify,
    Tube compression vs round trip or emulation compressors, especially in my UA LA2A tests, UA LA2A tracked sound better to all other options by quite a bit. The difference was not subtle to me.

    I mention this because I also heard this with Hardware Pultecs. Specifically Pulse Technique MEQ-5's.

    But, once ITB, all other options sound better to round trip or more specifically coupled to the DAW. Hybrid mixing using LA2A or Pultecs served no purpose to my ears. ITB tools did a better job.

    But these same products strapped on an uncoupled capture DAW sounded great.

    This is me just thinking out-loud...
    • So my point and personal observation here seems to point out, tube hardware sounds better if it is used uncoupled from the DAW.
    • I also noticed that stacked analog gear in this step looses character. Which is why I feel less analog gear in the mixdown pass of the capture DAW yields the most character and imaging integrity.
    • Which is why a Folcrom , M-2b (big rail, transformer-less tube topology), possibly Pultecs and a Bricasti might be the last standing hardware tools left in my personal hybrid workflow.
     
  10. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't the process of two a DAW setup for one pass still require DAAD coversion...in that you have to go out of one box then get back into the other?
    I'm not being a smart-ass, just a legitimate question as the 2 DAW set up is something that I'm fascinated to try at one stage and I'm trying to understand the best way to go about it.
    Or were you referring to DAW 1->DA->(insert any piece of analog gear here)->DA->DAW 2 ?
     
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    as mentioned above, they do when uncoupled. which is my entire point to a lot of what I am discovering more and more.
     
  12. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Chris, reading your posts again I realised that I may have blurred the lines in my thinking between hybrid mixing as opposed to using the 2nd DAW for capture only.
     
  13. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    @Sean G
    Specifically
     
  14. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    There is definitely something interesting happening when hardware is used in an uncoupled pass. Thus, tracking or uncoupled capturing. Both are doing a similar capture. Both are before the AD and uncoupled per-say.
     
  15. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    I see where you are coming from now.

    I like the way this thread has evolved along the way...plenty of food for thought.
     
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  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    What's also interesting is there was less to actually useless change with SS products in this workflow. Meaning, I noticed the most character integrity goodness was with tube processors in the uncoupled pass. SS gear sounded worse to plug-ins 100% of the time.
    I also noticed stacked tube gear lost a particular musical phase "swing".
    So if I was to choose one analog product as the "character" king , it would be Pulse Technique Pultecs or as I will soon confirm, Im suspecting just an M-2b as the closest to a straight wire with a subtle hint of a tube character, which is what M-2b are. They are Transformerless Tube Preamps. Wow is all I have to say.

    See millennia m-2b. http://www.mil-media.com/m-2b.html
     
  17. Sean G

    Sean G Well-Known Member

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    I haven't looked at the design of the Folcrom summing box...is it a straight-wire approach as you would expect?
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    And finally, a Bricasti in this pass recreates the most realist open mixdown I think is possible to date.

    So to summarize the ultimate studio for me.

    I would have at least 2, UA LA2A and 2 Pulse Technique Pultec MEQ-5s for tracking that could be also used for the mixdown via digital patchbays as discussed here too.
    Plus the uncoupled capture process as I described above for the mix and mastering.

    I like to think a really nice console would be wonderful for tracking but there is a lot of a console I don't feel is helpful if we go hybrid and what I hear as sonically and technically superior.

    If I had $100,000 of choice for either a console or modular gear... Top converters, Pultec's and M-2b would go a lot further in my mind to a console that is all coupled together and has a lot more wire needed., not to exclude a very inferior monitor control section that doesn't come close to something like a Dangerous ST. Hybrid done right requires well thought out parts to really tie it all together.


    But this is all of course, me thinking big bass mixes and the huge sound of what pop music achieves today. It would be cool to have a Neve room, SSL room and my two DAW system in another tracking room. If I had to choose only one for most applications today, it would be the 2 DAW system hands down. Then a Neve if I could share it with the 2 DAW modular tracking section. That would be wow.
     
  19. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Well-Known Member

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    Passive.
    It is exactly what the preamp is. It uses the preamp topololgy. Maybe Bos, Kurt others will explain this better.

    Basically, You want a tube summing console, use a tube preamp. You want a SS console, use a SS preamp.
     
  20. kmetal

    kmetal Kyle P. Gushue Well-Known Member

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    The whole thing about round tripping, and adding things at the mix, has not changed since recording started. Great recording technique (and the gear and rooms and players that are accosiated with it) has always been the way to go, and always means less technical fixing at the end of the mix.

    Ever heard an engineer boast "oh and I mixed the record with no eq, just balance". ?

    Back in the day it was. The noise floor of adding stacks of noises gear, then hitting the mix down deck, then another generation at mastering. Now the degradation we experience at exactly the same points in the process, is just different symptoms, mainly phase, image, size, and overall fidelity.

    Digital got this reputation that it doesn't have its own characteristics sound, which is totally untrue.

    I've never re converted cuz my converters and gear are junk. Even with good converters and gear, the idea, of assembling your sound into anther 44.1 thousand samples every second, even once, isnt awesome, it's just necessary, never mind doing it again. Your sending samples out, as a new analog signal, then piecing it together again. It makes no sense to me, never really has. It's surprising things work as well as they do, given what's actually going on under the hood. Even when I've had the luxury of a lot of high end analog and decent conversion like the Rosetta, I've never bothered to use it at the mix phase. I always just stayed ITB

    Analog had 120 years to get good, and when it finally did, everyone went digital. Lol. It's just gonna take some time.

    So the daw, has always been just a capture device, albeit a super cool one, with amazing technical and creative editing. I've felt this way the whole ride, and when you try and make it do more than that, your really pushing the limits.


    That's an amazing proposition. I'm over mixing consoles, even if I could afford it. The footprint is too big, it's in the way of your ears and speakers. That's a form of degradation to me.

    Now if you rack up those mixer modules, toss em in the machine room, and let me control them from whatever my control device is, that imho is tough to beat.
     

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