Orion 32 vs - How does it stack up?

Discussion in 'Converters / Interfaces' started by audiokid, Apr 13, 2013.

  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

  1. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    77 Sunset Lane.
    RE: MADI

    which type of connections are you using Chris? optical or the BNC? also you installed a pci card to get the MADIE connection for your computer? so no MADIE for a laptop, right? also are the optical cables the same as a regular tosliknk adat cable?
     
  2. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Hey Kurt,

    No laptop. I have less expectations with laptops but who knows. RME has a sweet looking card for them but its not cheap.

    For the O32, I'm using RME PCIe MADI with 50/125 (BNC isn't an interface option with it)
    AES10 specifies 62.5/125, or OM1, fiber for use with MADI. However, 50/125 fibers has advantages in bandwidth and distance and is now much more standard than the past. Its working awesome for me.
    http://recording.org/index.php?threads/madi-cable-50-125-µm-vs-62-5-µm.55302/

    toslink fools you because it fits (sort of) but doesn't work. It has to be
    SC-Duplex Jack to SC-Duplex Jack

    184276.jpg


    Now, an important memo for the general public (not you Kurt).

    My MADI length to the interface is 10ft. As everything in this business, what works great for me may be very different for the next guy.
    We need to be extra careful who we trust, especially when products are endorsed by shills or the dated. Shills get gear from manufacturers and spend the next month or more spreading a bunch of oil around just plain annoys me.

    A famous engineer raves about the Orion / 10M to me and others on a popular forum. I notice he is coming from a clearly dated RADAR system and old school concepts which are problematic to my requirements and workflow.
    He discovers "USB" and higher quality sound , then is all over the web shilling this like sugar for this company. Yet, USB fell short for me, even with the 10M, why? In all honestly, I would have sold the O32 had I not tried MADI. I'm not saying USB didn't work, it did work great up to a point.

    I rely heavily on MIDI/Audio dead lock and am crazy fast at working when I'm at my game. I have no time for pause or glitches. USB fell short , especially when using a MIDI interface like the world class RME AES 32 PCIe. The O32 doesn't have midi. When MIDI was combined with the Orion USB and 10M, or and a PCIe clock, it was so obvious what interface was boss. As I've been told by people I trust, Internal clocking is the only way, and I am a believer. USB wasn't even close when it was put to the test in my studio.

    On a very related side note: The was ZERO improvement with the 10M connected so don't be mislead here. There is some serious misinformation spreading around that this is necessary or will improve your sound. An external clock is a patch for a broken or problematic clock that is falling out. I did null tests with and without and every test nulled so close in A/B comparisons, it was clear where I needed to go and what to stop raving about. The 10M and USB is what radiant heating is to forced air and leaky windows.
    MADI didn't improve any audible improvement so be clear on that. MADI however made a HUGE improvement to the the stability of audio/midi dead lock. I noticed this especially as track count increased. After 32 tracks VSTi and audio, I noticed USB getting sloppier. And there was never a time I could loop a 64th note on a 1/4 beat for a minute at 165 bpm and not loose control of the session.
    MADI, not a problem.

    NOTE: I tried the 10M for 6 months ( not just over a weekend) , it cost $6500 in comparison to a used MADI PCIe cost $850. :) My hybrid system is the most stable its been in 16 years. I love the Orion 32 with MADI, its all I need. Its a keeper.

    Is cable important? some say no. My average cable length to everything in my control room is 6ft. I never round trip where people doing the round trip seem to be more problematic to clocking issues and phase.

    Its nice to get something this cool and still be smiling 12 months later..

     
    Namin likes this.
  3. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Well, it appears from many of the sources I have read that ProTools and the Orion do not get along as well as they should at this juncture. Since its release I'm hoping they have the drivers sorted out but the latency problem seems to be an issue and probably one that is part and partial Avids problem. They don't really like other converters and outboard to be all that useful with their stuff. Building a low latency headphone stack is crucial to me and the Orion doesn't have that capability with ProTools. PT11 allows for two sets of buffers....one for recording and one for mixing, so the aspect of having all your plugs in place even when you are sweetening and retracking or bumping tracks around works for me but I have to move up with the conversion as well as the monitor controller.

    So my search continues. I still havent decided on PT HD Native or simply PT11 with new conversion. New conversion for sure but which way to jump.

    Design for the need.....design for the need....etc etc........New Mantra.
     
  4. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    To follow up...I don't have the same needs as Chris. Nor do I have the same set-up as that unnamed ex Radar user mentioned....But I do have a need for this room. I don't think the Orion is going to do it for me and mostly because I'm moving my monitoring out of the console and using PT. I don't contend in any way that the Orion isn't an excellent unit and I have never heard it has a problem with sound....Quite the opposite. Except for another unnamed DIY specialty engineer who has a different opinion entirely.
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Hi Dave, my requirement are far from over the top though, I just happen to put gear to the test. I get a mix here and do what everyone else is doing. I load tracks in, mix tracks OUT and save it to 44.1.

    If I was doing what you do though, and what most studios do for recording real music, something like this is all I would buy.
    And, it also wouldn't be another pro tools rig.
    Why don't you get a console, an Orion 32 or something with a min of 16 ADDA, a (PC or a Mac) and get back to making music the easy way. KISS?

    Man, that is so simple and do able for mass compared to the money sucking Avid arena that can't get along with code because they are trying to be everyone's host in a every changing world.

    I think we have come to a time in digital audio that you can't build a system that will accept third party software like Avid without glitches.
    Look at Magix now, they were going to build Samplitude for Apple and stopped after a year into it. What a brilliant move. What a testimonial of confidence I have with them now. They couldn't keep the same level of standard under a multi platform product so they stand firm and say, we can't do it with loosing. Kudo's to this way of thinking.

    Get a Dangerous Monitor ST control system or similar, Little Red Cue Box(s) and you are rolling. They work excellent. You don't even need to worry about latency. Latency occurs when you are trying to hear the plug-in processing while tracking through code.. Its a nightmare that I don't think will ever change to par because everyone is using as much DSP as possible to make better plugs. Its never ending.
     
    Namin likes this.
  6. tbone

    tbone Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2014
    excellent info! thanx, i'm leaning toward the orion, I have a nahlahem 8 core macpro, i was seriously considering a native core pcie, 2-digi 192's and being stuck at PT10HD(i currently use pt10), Orion seems like a better and cheaper option even if i need to spring for a madi card, especially considering you didn't hear much of a diff, if any, between the M10! and the internal clock. btw, i'm hybrid, using minimal plugs, a console w/primarily outboard everything.
     
  7. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Yep. I get ya! The more the manufacturers say that their systems are able to integrate with others the more it becomes apparent that they don't really. Its not just Avid, but they are the most proprietary of them all.

    I do have a console. Its small but I could do 32X2 to sum without a problem. And it does sound really good. I am mixing ITB presently but I was hoping for an interface that would allow a hybrid situation in the future and the Orion looked to be that solution....but the work arounds associated with getting PT and it to play together really well have all but soured me on this solution. A 16X16 interface/conversion is a good solution as all I can REALLY do at one time here is 16 due to space limitations but it means a duplicate piece for summing out of the box to 32 and thus my budget gets whacked for some other things I had in mind with this upgrade. I am going to change the patchbays one more time....going TT with DB25's and fanouts for all the goesintas/goesouttas. I like my ADC punchdowns but trouble shooting them even with the neatness of wiring harnesses that I possess as a skill (ELECTRCIAN!!!!) its still a hunt and peck thing that I'd be happier with simply working from a quality connector. So this has to be considered in the upgrade budget as well.
    I get you about the latency when tracking with plugs. This is a fix in PT11 and certainly in PTHD and PTHD Native. !! allows the two buffer settings so you can track with plugs in place and build your headphone monitoring to occur through the PT mixer pre-fader and roundtrip. The Dangerous D box looks great as well several other boxes. I'm not too interested in prosumer level at this time. I want to hear what I need to hear and will exchange my monitors (Genelecs/ Tannoys) if they dont cut it anymore after this upgrade. I would probably lean towards the Neumanns or even a pair of NOS Digi's that sound exceptional! PMC designed and only marketed by Digi for a short while. Digi being more concerned about other products gave up on these and never worked hard to get the word out. I've heard both RM1 and RM2 and they are very very good. They also have a digital input with onboard DSP so direct from the converter for output or the analog input for mixing OTB. A high-end monitor controller gets me what I need for this scenario. As you can attest, Chris, HEARING is 4/5ths the need.
     
  8. ric3xrt

    ric3xrt Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Location:
    Trumbauersville PA
    well I am little late to the party Today I played both tracks for a group of 30 People at my day Job thru a pair of Altec series100(cheap I know)
    All 30 like No2,,,,,,,,I have no idea what that says
     
  9. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    It says you liked the Orion 32. :)
     
  10. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Location:
    Akron/Cleveland, OH
    Home Page:
    What console are you using, Dave?
     
  11. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Hey Donny. I have a small ATB8 Toft V.3. I also monitor through it in real time now and I'm not a big fan of its monitor controller circuit. Its a little wooly for my needs. Its nice to listen to records on but not to mix with. At least for me. The rest of it is pretty good despite some things out there about it. Pres can take a lot of signal without collapsing, the EQ is good enough to track through, routing is excellent.

    If I had my way and the money I would probably do the Harrison 950. Or a reconditioned recapped Amek Angela.
     
  12. DonnyThompson

    DonnyThompson Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Location:
    Akron/Cleveland, OH
    Home Page:
    I've heard both good and not so good things about Toft, the main bad thing I'd heard was that they went through a period where they got sloppy with their build, but I'd also heard that this had been resolved. So if you aren't happy mixing through it, what do you like about it? Is it that you like what it does on the way in to your DAW?
     
  13. Davedog

    Davedog Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2001
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Donny. My personal use of it is mostly drums into PT. It gives me 8 channel of usable preamps with very very good EQ. The sound is tight and punchy. At this point I'm still ITB except on some particular tracks where I want to get something special. Then I'll come out and run the signal through things in my rack or reamp. I like the reamp thing a lot for thickening a guitar track if it needs it. I'm not sure what kind of mixer for stems in a hybrid system it would be but I think it would do the job as a summing box in a decent way as long as the tracks or the stems are already well prepared. I don't think its going to impart some magical sheen to things. Just a clear representation of whats already there plus a trip through analog land. My intent by listing other mixers is not to belittle the one I already have it was just to point to my ideal set-up.
     
  14. Mdb Audio

    Mdb Audio Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Location:
    Portugal
    Home Page:
    I have several products of Anetelope Audio, Eclipse Orion and 10M... I think they are excelent converters they sound really well Speacially Eclipse. Orion for what it packs and price possible is the best converter i recorded with... the where in the first drivers usb versions some problems but they are all cleared out with new firware versions. Eclipse in streaming with mac g5 osx gives some clicks pronlems but they improved a lot that... in Recording and using has a monitor they are Ok, eclipse packs an outstanding versatility and off course sound... it packs OCX clock already and i think orion too...
     
  15. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Home Page:
    Many units (including computer peripherals) fail or see there performance degrade when passing 15ft on a USB cable.
    Some USB extenders exist to translate the USB signal on an Ethernet cable but some units won't go well on those either !
    Just a little IT info ;)
     
  16. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    I used a 4ft USB cable and it still suffered once I put it to the test.
    If you are multi tasking ( hybrid and loop editing) , MADI is the only way to use the Orion32. No comparison.
     
  17. pcrecord

    pcrecord Quality recording seeker ! Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Home Page:
    nice to know !
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    USB is good, better , best under separate AD or DA processes. But, when you push USB into a more complicated ( pristine) ADDA application, like some might use it in a hybrid round trip per-say, (even though I never round trip process), a USB interface lacks and lags, becomes very problematic.
    The DAW USB bus throws everything tied to USB into chaos which becomes a domino effect. The Chaos may or may not be noticeable to some, so, its subjective but definitely there. These problems can falsely lead you into thinking you need to fix something that really isn't the problem.
    A big one is fooling you to believe your clocking is weak (re: mixerman public claim to huge improvements if you buy the $6500 10M for this). I had a 10M here for 6 months. Go MADI, learn about clocking and hybrid optimization and save $6500 on investing in a useless external master clock like that.

    Just a guess.... USD interfaces with this many channels crammed into a single rack /psu/contribute to random stuttering , glitches and clicks to drops and lock-ups. No one could convince me that this USB converters is stable under 32 channel ADDA. It is however, excellent as a USB interface for the simple one way ticket at a time (AD or DA).
    MADI or AES EBU is by far more stable than USB if you are requiring superior clocking, low latency that works. I like MADI with the O32. Shorter cable and the best computer on the planet wouldn't convince me to change my mind. Maybe in a few years.

    Being said, I just added the Prism Atlas (USB interface) to my chain and it is superior to the Orion for both sound and stability but it is also 8 channels apposed to 32.
    Prism knows where to stop, but it also costs $28,000 USD for 32 channels compared to $3000 USD.
    O32 is a great deal, especially if you use it with MADI!!
     
  19. Mdb Audio

    Mdb Audio Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Location:
    Portugal
    Home Page:
    Yup if you use many external HD and many usb Chains usb Is not an option to record more then 16 tracks or 8.... off course made or dante or Ethernet is the way to go... i changed to rednet!!! the converters are really good maybe the best ones and i compared in blind with several others from company´s that i don´t want to mention here because of some noises that can do... but they are unbelievable, and the latency only $*^t faster then AVID HDX way faster... the versatility for a studio is fantastic!!! good work Focus....
     
  20. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2000
    Location:
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Please share your info.

    NOTE: This website is privately owned! NOT controlled by advertising shills owing favours to special interest groups.
     
  • AT5047

    The New AT5047 Premier Studio Microphone Purity Transformed

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice