Overhead Phase

Discussion in 'Room & Overhead' started by Hack, Nov 1, 2001.

  1. moles

    moles Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Location:
    Winnipeg, MB
    Great thread!
    I spent a good 4 hrs yesterday getting drum sounds for a long-term project. After going through the usual rigamarole of moving mics, fine tuning phase issues, getting a good room sound etc. (I always start with the overheads) I finally got just about the best kit sound I've ever gotten. Really, it flat out rocks.

    At the end of the session yesterday I find this thread poking through the forums, and go check out our drum mics, which are still set up. Yup. EXACTLY where Recorderman said to put em! Coulda saved myself half a day I guess, but it was more fun taking the long route anyway.
     
  2. sonixx

    sonixx Guest

    FWIW... I've posted a clip of my kit using the Recorderman Mic'ing technique.

    Click here for Full Kit Clip

    Look for the Full Kit Title.

    There's three clips in the MP3:

    1) Overheads Dry

    2) Overhreads with some EQ and Compression (Vintage Warmer)

    3) #2 plus the close mics (Kick, Tom bottoms and Snare bottom)
     
  3. deanp920

    deanp920 Guest

    Sonixx,

    Is that an smaller, untensioned drumhead on the kick's batter side? What am I seeing there?

    Dean
     
  4. sonixx

    sonixx Guest

    hey deanp920,

    Yep... it's a G1 Clear (rim and all) taped on.
     
  5. deanp920

    deanp920 Guest

    Cool, Sonixx!

    Is the G1 taped on such that an air gap exists between it and the kick batter, or is it the other way around(no gap)?

    Can you elaborate a bit on where you acquired this technique. Theory?

    Your clips sound good.

    Dean
     
  6. sonixx

    sonixx Guest

    The G1 is kind of loose. I used really thick and strong Duct tape. I'm not sure what you mean by air gap... basically the G1 is just taped to the Kick head.

    Thanks... I probably found this technique by reading the forums. I'm not sure when I read it. Not sure of the theory... I just know it works for what I want. I have tried several head types, clear and coated, with and without the ring. I found a fully intact clear 14 inch G1 was the ticket. Also, I have no other muffling of any kind in the kick... nor in any other drum for that matter. I have probably tried every form of kick muffling and this method is to my liking the best. The kick head is part of an Evans EQ3 system... but without the system.

    Thanks...
     
  7. bgavin

    bgavin Guest

    Your confusion is the entire basis behind making a simple PVC jig. Once you see it work, it becomes obvious.

    1) A mic is placed at either end of the tee.
    2) The "leg" end of the jig is at the kick beater point.
    3) The midpoint of the string is at the snare impact point.

    You are dealing with two triangles: one formed entirely of PVC (tee ends + leg end). The second triangle points are the tee ends, and the string mid point.

    The RecorderMan technique requires the pair of mics to be equidistant from the kick, and equidistant from the snare.

    The jig approach allows an assistant to rapidly set up overheads, without tape measures or having to understand how it works. The kick and snare sit dead center in the tracks.
     
  8. teleharmonic

    teleharmonic Guest

    between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

    greg
     
  9. teleharmonic

    teleharmonic Guest

    between recorderman's speaker/kick drum mic metal stand and the mic positioning "magic T" i see a whole line of drum recording products waiting to be released on an unsuspecting public.

    greg
     
  10. deanp920

    deanp920 Guest

    Sonixx,

    I was talking about the gap that would be created by the G1's rim acting as a spacer between the two heads. If you flip the head over, there's no spacer anymore.

    Which way do you have it?

    Also, with nothing inside my kick, I get that "beachball" sound regardless of what I do to the head(s). Have you ever encountered this?

    bgavin,

    I understand your jig now...snare impact point = spot where drumstick hits the snare head. How long is the string on your particular setup?

    I LOVE jigs!

    Dean
     
  11. bgavin

    bgavin Guest

    String length = cut to taste.

    A longer string puts the mics "higher" and more forward above the kick and cymbals, and farther from the snare.

    I have not yet worked out a simple means of changing the string length. It has to be ultra simple, but effective.

    The initial setting is determined by the recording engineer using trial and error methods to get his desired sound. The jig is sized accordingly, then the assistant can place it accurately every time with minimal fuss.

    When I was an engineer at IBM, we were forced to suspend using the word "jig" because of imagined racial connotations.

    Poppycock.

    :D

    Every tool maker understands what a jig is, and this one is just a tool for mic placement.
     
  12. sonixx

    sonixx Guest

    Hi deanp920,

    The batter side of the G1 is taped to the kick head. The G1 rim is not touching the kick head.

    How tight is your kick head? Attach the G1 to the Kick head, then tune your kick head. Mine is fairly loose, but no wrinkles.
     
  13. deanp920

    deanp920 Guest

    Sonixx,

    My kick is tuned similarly, but I'm beginning to think that some of the pinging problem is the gloss laquer finish inside my kick(Taye Studio Maple 18X22).

    A small wad of cloth inside the drum not even touching the heads gets rid of that beach ball sound.

    Like you, I like my kit wide open, with no muffling.

    Dean
     
  14. TamaSabian

    TamaSabian Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Location:
    Lima-Peru
    I´ve learned a lot from this thread since I found it!!! :D Now I know how to place the OH right on the spot, taking care of distance between both. After trying this tecnique some questions came up to me: If I add snare & kick mics, where should I point both overheads??. Does the kick needs to be in the middle (talking about OH), what if I point them to the toms or floor tom??. Moving the phase switches and having no difference in the sound means no phase problems??.

    Thanks
    TS
     
  15. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    Pointing @ the toms can be very good. I do that many times. The goal of this particular technique is to equalize the thebalamce of the kick and snare between the channels (L&R) and to make the kick, snare toms greater in balance relative to the cymbals.

    If you are flipping phase switches and it makes little or no difference, that means your neither completely in nor completely pout of phase. Not necessarily good. The better place to be in is when switching the phase (or polarity) buttons results in a thinner sound one way...that would be out of phase. Once you find that, flip the opposite way and you should have fuller, rounder, bigger, fatter (pick a nice analog adjective) drums.
     
  16. TamaSabian

    TamaSabian Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Location:
    Lima-Peru
    That´s exactly what was happening to me when I figure out this technique, but I thought that I was doing something wrong.
    One more question: If I point the OH to the toms, I need to be sure that kick is in the center of both OH???.

    Thanx again
    TS
     
  17. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
     
  18. So is it possible to point the two overheads at the toms (one at the rack tom and the right on the floor tom... basically pointing down?) and still get the snare and kick in the center of the stereo image?

    I was able to try this technique really quickly the other day (got the two mics the same distance) but i didnt have time to finely adjust the two etc. I want the overheads to really pick up the toms besides just the cymbals and snare because i will close mik the snare and also the kick.

    One of the problems i have is even when my preamp gain is all the way down on my overhead condensor mics it sometimes clips because of the snare (even when they arent really pointed at the snare)... should i just try to point more at the toms and maybe making the mics higher?


    sonixxx:

    thanks for those pics and files... what compression settings did you use for those overheads?

    thanks
     
  19. RecorderMan

    RecorderMan Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2001
    wear headphones and listen to the two mics panned hard left and right with equal gain on each. As you position the mics pointing @ Rack & Floor respectively) have the drummer lightly tap snare and kick. You can then adjust my inches and fractions thereof until you achieve the desired balance.
     
  20. Thanks Recorderman I will try that.

    i'm really excited about this new drum micing technique... so far (without even fine tuning much) its given me the best drum sounds ive ever had (before mostly doing spaced overheads...would never give me much balance).
     
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