Overhead Phase

Discussion in 'Room & Overhead' started by Hack, Nov 1, 2001.

  1. sonixx

    sonixx Guest

    hey photoresistor, the compression depends on the players style. when I track myself, I generally use a very low ratio 1.2 or less, slow attack and fast release and low threshold maybe around -30db. but for instance with my son, he plays the cymbals a lot harder, so I use an exciter to tame the cymbals (very fast attack and release) to bring up the drum hits (threshold balances Drum to Cymbal), followed with a general compression similar to above. I set the exciter to bring up the drums and get out of the way of the cymbals and the compressor is a leveler. each song usually requires a different approach.

    two plugin compressors I use a lot are the PSP Vintage Warmer and Waves RCOMP. I usually only use the Vintage Warmer on the whole kit mix and on the Kick.
  2. thanks

    I got to try this setup more extensively last week and all in all it worked out great.

    The only grief I have is that even with my condensor overheads all the way down it still clips sometimes because of the snare sometimes (and theyre pointed at the toms). I have them pretty much as high as they can go. I think I can pretty much solve this problem with a little work but after listening to the mixdowned drums there is this barely noticeable like delay thing on the kick drum.

    What is a good way to make sure the kick and snare mics are in phase and all with the two overheads? Keep in mind that I'm somewhat limited when it comes to the overheads height.

  3. jalipaz

    jalipaz Guest

    wow! 2001 this post started. beautiful post by the way. took me 2 days to read it.
    ok anyways, after reading everyones comment, (thanks for the examples to everyone who had examples, i wish we could hear rm's "3d drums") i had some questions myself.

    with this technique, doesnt it work mainly because the mics r the same distance from the snare and kick drum? if thats the case couldnt i essentially then have the mics drastically and exagerated anywhere i wanted them as long as they were both the same distance from the snare and kick.

    now when i did this i thought it sounded good. it sounded like it does when i stand by the drummer when he plays. the sound i want to achieve is a wider more open sound, like the cymbals r on the outside of the speakers any ideas for that?

    again great post -jal
  4. DanRoy

    DanRoy Guest

  5. Kurt Foster

    Kurt Foster Well-Known Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    77 Sunset Lane.
    The whole idea of the technique is for the drums to sound like they would at the drummers position.

    If you move the mics away frm the drum kit, you will get a wider soundstage but at the expense of loseing focus and definition of the kick and snare ... toms will suffer also ... Room refelections will become more eveident and the sound will become more washed out.
  6. maintiger

    maintiger Well-Known Member

    Dec 3, 2003
    Whittier, California, USA
    so lets bring it up again... (by popular request) :D
  7. Hack

    Hack Active Member

    Mar 20, 2001
    Little Rock, AR
    welcome to the thread that will never die
  8. J-3

    J-3 Active Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    Take a sm57 and a 451. (or a 57 and any other small diaphram /pencil style condenser). Put some head phones on. Hold them together so that they face the same way and the capsules are about even. In a normal voice talk into the both of them, alternately muting and adjusting levels until they're of equal loudness. Now flip one out of polarity. Hear the "phase-y ness?" Slide the 451 Along the sm57 until you get the most out of phase sound you can (your voice gets thin and loses volumn). Now if you tape the two mic together at this point; put them both in polarity together you now have a two mic set-up that can be held on one sm57 mic clip and will give you the top two snare mics, of a three mic set-up (two top/one bottom) that is somewhat common in some circles. Mainly you gotten to hear how you CAN hear effect of "phase". If you adjust the balance of your mic's, in you headphones you can extrapolate this principle until you become allergic to phase. All your mics will be in , relative too each other, as much as you want.[/quote]

    So here's more fuel to the fire for this post that will NEVER die (not that it should)

    Recorderman above was talking about a 3 mic set up on a snare. I too enjoy doing this 57 and a condensor on the snare top. I find that the condensor adds a nice top end that the 57 dosn't but alone is anemic.
    I have always thought that if you have 2 mics next to each other with the diaphrams lined up. (ie try your damndest to put two mics in the exact same position) that they would be IN PHASE I have seen this many times on the Royer website (and elsewhere) where engineers line up a 57/R-121/md421 setup on gtr amps etc. Is this type of settup not in phase??? When i set up my snare I put the 57 where I want it then put the LD Condensor right next to it just almost touching. I also make shure the diaphram (not end of mic) is as close to being lined up as possible. I also do this when testing to see which mic I want to use for a source, put 'em in the same spot and a/b. That way I know what the mic is saying and not what the positioning is saying.

    Any help?
  9. J-3

    J-3 Active Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    whoops, the top half of the last post was supposed to be a quote from Recorderman in case you didn't catch on.

    Ok. so I tried the "recorderman overhead" technique today and it does sound good, however I find that I get a little too much hat and ride in the oh's. I'm 32" above the snare, both mics pointing at the snare. I tried pointing more at toms but it didn't help. I do like how the technique gives more cohesiveness to the whole kit. The kick, toms and cymbals sound like 1 big nice instrument not several instruments recorded seperately and put together. My only other dislike would be that since so much snare is coming thru the oh I'm not getting a real nice snare in the center. I'm micing the snare top, bottom and shell up the center but it's still a big stereo sounding snare. Not particually bad but just different.

    Any ideas on how to reduce hat and ride in the oh's and get the snare a little more in the center?
  10. i dont have much to add but i just wanted to brag that im excited to try this technique again.... with my new condensor mics!!

    before i was using real cheap ($80 for the pair) MXL ldc mics but i just got my two audix scx-one mics today (small diaphgram)!! cant wait to try them out!

    i think i might try using one of my mxl condensor mics on snare with my 57 because of your suggestion... i have one empty input left anyways.
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

    Mar 20, 2000
    BC, Canada
    Home Page:
    Recordman explains it well. Check it out::

  12. rockstardave

    rockstardave Active Member

    Mar 3, 2006
    sweet! very helpful and useful!
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