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RO Beginner's Only Tools

Discussion in 'Microphones (live or studio)' started by realdynamix, Aug 16, 2003.

  1. bgavin

    bgavin Guest

    I've got the 'what is sound thing' down OK, but I just passed 'what is a bus' with an acceptable grade.

    I'll hang out here to sweep floors and grovel politely for knowledge. RM's tutorial on drum micing works well for me. Those real-world examples are what I'm looking to learn.

    :D
     
  2. Such a deal this ROBOT thing! I can see the logic in this! Oy! Say goodbye to the Yiddish Blues, Sadie!!

    Yiddish-Blues.jpg

    [ August 18, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Lee Tyler ]
     
  3. white swan

    white swan Guest

    If they will be doing drums, i think they would need at least four mics. Two Oktava MC012's for overheads, an SM57 for snare,and an AT Pro25 for kick. Add a large diaphragm condenser for vocals- maybe a C1 or some sort of Marshall? That's about $500 out of the budget right now.

    Now we need a small mixer with at least eight mic preamps. Mackie or Soundcraft maybe. Oops- I've blown the whole budget already and haven't even bought software yet!

    That's always been my problem - never could stick to a budget!
     
  4. UncleBob58

    UncleBob58 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Location:
    Fairfield County, CT
    Home Page:
    Great Rick!!!

    How about limiting it to the "front end"? Just mics, pres, DIs and dynamic processors and the techniques for using them. Keep it around US$1,000.00. This would apply to all recording formats and keep us out of the quagmire of getting into specific formats.
     
  5. vinniesrs

    vinniesrs Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
     
  6. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2003
    Location:
    Central Village, CT
    Home Page:
    Steve,

    this will give you an idea of the built-in effects of the D12 or D1600, but it only touches the surface actually......


    Reverb 7
    I001 RV1 ReverbHall Reverb Hall HALL
    I002 RV2 SmoothHall Smooth Hall SmtHall
    I003 RV3 WetPlate Reverb Wet Plate WPlate
    I004 RV4 DryPlate Reverb Dry Plate DPlate
    I005 RV5 ReverbRoom Reverb Room ROOM
    I006 RV6 BrightRoom Bright Room BrRoom
    I007 RV7 ER Early Reflection ER
    Delay 6
    I008 DL1 L/C/R Delay L/C/R Delay LCRDly
    I009 DL2 St/X.Delay St/Cross Delay StDly
    I010 DL3 St.MtapDelay St.Multitap Delay MtDly
    I011 DL4 St.ModDelay St.Modulation Delay ModDly
    I012 DL5 St.DynaDelay St.Dynamic Delay DyDly
    I013 DL6 AutoPanDelay St.Auto Panning Delay PanDly
    Modulation 7
    I014 MO1 St.Chorus St.Chorus Chorus
    I015 MO2 St.Flanger St.Flanger Flangr
    I016 NO3 St.Phaser St.Phaser Phaser
    I017 MO4 St.Vibrato St.Vibrato Vibrat
    I018 MO5 St.Tremolo St.Tremolo StTrml
    I019 MO6 St.AutoPan St.Auto Pan AutPan
    I020 MO7 Ensemble Ensemble Ensmbl
    Dynamics 7
    I021 DY1 St.Comp St.Compressor StComp
    I022 DY2 St.Limiter St.Limiter StLimit
    I023 DY3 MBandLimiter Multiband Limiter BnLimit
    I024 DY4 St.Gate St.Gate StGate
    I025 DY5 St.Exciter St.Exciter/Enhancer StExctr
    I026 DY6 St.Decimator St.Decimator Decim
    I027 DY7 St.P4EQ St.Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    Special Effects 4
    I028 SE1 St.RingMod St.Ring Modulator RingMd
    I029 SE2 Doppler Doppler Dopplr
    I030 SE3 AnalogRecord St.Analog Record Record
    I031 SE4 TalkingMod Talking Modulator TalkMd
    LargeSizeEffect7
    I032 LS1 St.G7EQ St.Graphic 7band EQ G7EQ
    I033 LS2 St.MBLimiter St.Multiband Limiter SBnLmt
    I034 LS3 Vocoder Vocoder Vocodr
    I035 LS4 StPitchShift St.Pitch Shifter StPitch
    I036 LS5 ER_Large Early Reflections L ER-L
    I037 LS6 RotarySpeakr Rotary Speaker RotSP
    I038 LS7 CntrCancellr Center Canceller Canclr
    Guitar Multi 13 EFF1 EFF2 EFF3 EFF4 EFF5
    I039 GT1 GuitarMulti1 Guitar Multi1 Dist NR Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I040 GT2 GuitarMulti2 Guitar Multi2 Wah Dist NR Delay
    I041 GT3 GuitarMulti3 Guitar Multi3 Dist NR AmpSim CabRes Delay
    I042 GT4 GuitarMulti4 Guitar Multi4 Comp P4EQ AmpSim Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I043 GT5 GuitarMulti5 Guitar Multi5 Wah Comp P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I044 GT6 GuitarMulti6 Guitar Multi6 Comp P4EQ Pitch Delay
    I045 GT2 StackWah Guitar Multi2 Wah Dist NR Delay
    I046 GT4 Clean Guitar Multi4 Comp P4EQ AmpSim Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I047 EB1 CleanChorus Bass Multi 1 Comp Exctr P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I048 GT4 SemiClean Guitar Multi4 Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    I049 GT5 HalfTone Guitar Multi5 Wah Comp P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I050 GT6 Detune Guitar Multi6 Comp P4EQ Pitch Delay
    I051 GT6 12string Sim Guitar Multi6 Comp P4EQ Pitch Delay
    Amp Simulator 4
    I052 AS1 Amp-Stack Amp Simulator1 NR AmpSim CabRes Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I053 AS2 Vox-Tremolo Amp Simulator2 NR AmpSim CabRes Treml Delay
    I054 AS3 Amp-Phaser Amp Simulator3 NR AmpSim CabRes Phaser Delay
    I055 AS1 Amp-SS Amp Simulator1 NR AmpSim CabRes Cho/Fl S.Dly
    PreAmpSimulator 5
    I056 PA1 PreAmpSim Pre Amp Simulator Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    I057 PA1 RockLead Pre Amp Simulator Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    I058 PA1 Blues Pre Amp Simulator Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    I059 PA1 SeattleLead Pre Amp Simulator Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    I060 PA1 Crunch Pre Amp Simulator Dist NR Tone AmpSim
    Bass Multi 3
    I061 EB1 BassMulti1 Bass Multi1 Comp Exctr P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I062 EB2 BassMulti2 Bass Multi2 Dist NR Filter Delay
    I063 EB3 BassMulti3 Bass Multi3 Comp P4EQ Gate
    ProgNo Categ ProgramName Algorithm EFF1 EFF2 EFF3 EFF4 EFF5 Mode
    Mic Multi 1
    I064 MS1 MicMulti Mic Multi CabiRes MicSim Comp
    Vocal Multi 4
    I065 VO1 Vocal Multi1 Vocal Multi1 Comp Exctr Pitch S.Dly
    I066 VO2 Vocal Multi2 Vocal Multi2 NR DeEss P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I067 EB1 RockVocal Bass Multi1 Comp Exctr P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    I068 EB1 VocalDouble Bass Multi1 Comp Exctr P4EQ Cho/Fl S.Dly
    Mono-Mono 40 EFF 1 EFF 2
    I069 MM1 P4EQ-Exciter P4EQ-Exciter P4EQ Excit1
    I070 MM2 P4EQ-Wah P4EQ-Wah P4EQ Wah
    I071 MM3 P4EQ-Cho/Fln P4EQ-Cho/Flng P4EQ ChFl1
    I072 MM4 P4EQ-Phaser P4EQ-Phaser P4EQ Phaser
    I073 MM5 P4EQ-MtDelay P4EQ-Mt.Delay P4EQ Mt.Dly
    I074 MM6 Comp-Wah Comp-Wah Comp2 Wah
    I075 MM7 Comp-AmpSim Comp-AmpSim Comp2 AmpSim
    I076 MM8 Comp-OD/HiG Comp-OD/HiG Comp1 ODHiG
    I077 MM9 Comp-P4EQ Comp-P4EQ Comp1 P4EQ
    I078 MM10 Comp-Cho/Fl Comp-Cho/Flng Comp2 ChFl1
    I079 MM11 Comp-Phaser Comp-Phaser Comp2 Phaser
    I080 MM12 Comp-MtDly Comp-Mt.Delay Comp2 Mt.Dly
    I081 MM13 Exctr-Comp Exciter-Comp Excit2 Comp1
    I082 MM14 Exctr-Limtr Exciter-Limiter Excit2 Limitr
    I083 MM15 Exctr-Ch/Fl Exciter-Cho/Flng Excit2 ChFl1
    I084 MM16 Exctr-Phasr Exciter-Phaser Excit2 Phaser
    I085 MM17 Exctr-MtDly Exciter-Mt.Delay Excit2 Mt.Dly
    I086 MM18 Limitr-P4EQ Limiter-P4EQ Limitr P4EQ
    I087 MM19 Limtr-Ch/Fl Limiter-Cho/Flng Limitr ChFl2
    I088 MM20 Limtr-Phasr Limiter-Phaser Limitr Phaser
    I089 MM21 Limtr-MtDly Limiter-Mt.Delay Limitr Mt.Dly
    I090 MM22 OD/HG-Ch/Fl OD/HiG-Cho/Flng ODHiG ChFl1
    I091 MM23 OD/HG-Phasr OD/HiG-Phaser ODHiG Phaser
    I092 MM24 OD/HG-MtDly OD/HiG-Mt.Delay ODHiG Mt.Dly
    I093 MM25 OD/HG-AmpSm OD/HiG-AmpSim ODHiG AmpSim
    I094 MM26 Wah-AmpSim Wah-AmpSim Wah AmpSim
    I095 MM27 Deci-AmpSim Decimator-AmpSim Decima AmpSim
    I096 MM28 Decima-Comp Decimator-Comp Decima Comp1
    I097 MM29 Ch/Fl-MtDly Cho/Flng-Mt.Delay ChFl2 Mt.Dly
    I098 MM30 Phasr-Ch/Fl Phaser-Cho/Flng Phaser ChFl2
    I099 MM31 Amp-Tremolo AmpSim-Tremolo AmpSim Treml
    I100 MM32 Reverb-Gate Reverb-Gate Reverb Gate
    I101 MM33 MicSim-Lmtr MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I102 MM33 MicSim57/87 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I103 MM33 MicSim57/47 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I104 MM33 MicSm57/451 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I105 MM33 MicSm57/414 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I106 MM33 MicSim57/20 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I107 MM33 MicSm57/421 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    I108 MM33 MicSim57/55 MicSim-Limiter MicSim Limitr
    Mono-Mono 20 EFF1
    I109 MN1 OD/HiGain OverDrive/HighGain ODHiG
    I110 MN2 Compressor Compressor2 Comp2
    I111 MN3 Limiter Limiter Limitr
    I112 MN4 Gate Gate Gate
    I113 MN5 Exciter Exciter2 Excit2
    I114 MN6 P4EQ Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I115 MN7 AmpSim AmpSimulator AmpSim
    I116 MN8 Mt.Delay Multitap Delay Mt.Dly
    I117 MN9 Cho/Flng Chorus/Flanger2 ChFl2
    I118 MN10 Phaser Phaser Phaser
    I119 MN11 Expander Expander Expndr
    I120 MN6 LoBoost Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I121 MN6 LoCut Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I122 MN6 MidBoost Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I123 MN6 MidCut Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I124 MN6 HiBoost Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I125 MN6 HiCut Parametric 4band EQ P4EQ
    I126 MN2 PowerPop Compressor2 Comp2
    I127 MN2 Dance Compressor2 Comp2
    I128 MN2 Rock Compressor2 Comp2

    Rod
     
  7. vinniesrs

    vinniesrs Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    :D :D
    Rod:
    Am I to understand you're saying you like....the fx? :D :D

    What about editing stuff? What I don't like about the roland is that there is a minimum length for cut and paste. When I try to do a small edit I always have blank space on each end.
    Also, It would be a good feature for these to have a variable crossfade.
    I am not trying to imply that these are beginner featueres, but it would be good to dabble in before the novice moves up to the next step.
     
  8. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2003
    Location:
    Central Village, CT
    Home Page:
    Steve,

    you can edit with this thing in .001 second intervals (pretty invisable) you have 4 different settings for fade curve and can cross fade within the in-out settings - you can do this for individual tracks or simultaneously for multiple or all tracks........

    Each analog input and mixer channel has its own high and low shelving EQ, plus adjustable-frequency mid EQ. The D1600 has separate EQs for the inputs and the mixer, assuring that the EQ settings for recording remain distinct from those set for playback.

    The effects section of the D1600 consists of multiple effects processors, providing 192 preset and 192 user effect programs. In every song, you can assign up to 8 insert effects, plus 2 masters and a final processing effect.

    Fader, EQ, pan, and effects can be stored in a scene, and up to 100 scenes can be stored for each song.

    You have copy, insert, and paste functions, can set 4 locate points and up to 100 mark points per song, have edit tools can help you polish your tracks even further. For example, you can swap audio regions – or all data in tracks – with other tracks, plus you can Reverse, Optimize, Normalize, Fade In or Out, or Expand/Compress track data. The Undo and Redo functions give you up to 99 levels of undo.


    It operates with a touch screen for operations - is relatively intuitive and even someone as dumb as me can operate it without blowing it up - hell - it's idiot proof.

    Great for a beginner to learn on - and decent enough to take to a club to catch your act..... I do that with it all the time......

    I do not think you could duplicate this for the cost with a computer system and add-ons......

    Rod
     
  9. vinniesrs

    vinniesrs Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    The only other questions I have about this would be:
    A) Does it have a burner, or a way to output to a computer to burn a disc?
    B) A friend of mine had a korg unit, maybe not the same one, but it had limitations to the memory. The roland has a 250mb zip drive. Does the korg have the same thing?

    Finally to bring things back on topic, uncle bob suggested we stay away from a recorder, and focus on front end. That may be best, or we could instead come up with a list of features to look for in a recorder, and the purchaser can compare those features with the products available in hisher area.

    If we think this is a good approach, then I'll make some suggestions to start off.
    I will take it for granted that preamp, mixer, compression, and at least reverb are included with each of these units.
    Midi ports would also be useful to keyboard players, or individuals who might later sync with a computer for whatever reason.
    Also a digital output is essential, or a cd burner.
    What about phantom power? My roland doesn't have it. Perhaps we should include an external power supply in the budget.

    Anything else?
     
  10. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2003
    Location:
    Central Village, CT
    Home Page:
    The 1600 has a 1-16 speed cd burner as well as a USB port to connect to your computer. The internal HD is 40 gig - but total storage capacity with this machine is max 1,000 Gig between internal and external drives. You can also save songs in single track WAV format (via the CD or USB) to take to other machines (or work on a computer DAW if you prefer) for the final mixdown. The CD burner is also set up for back-up of projects.

    My answer to "A" above also answers this.

    My last post on this - you're right about that comment - sorry guys - did not mean to sidetrack the thread.....

    [ August 19, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Rod Gervais ]
     
  11. vinniesrs

    vinniesrs Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    I have had my roland stuff for a few years now, and admittedly have not paid a lot of attention to other pieces in it's class.
    It would seem to me that this thing presents a good value, and has everything you might need, except midi.
    Rod, when I get a chance I'm gonna hit the korg website and take a look.

    What does everyone think about mic's?
     
  12. TedB

    TedB Guest

    Just a note on the D1600.... the earlier models (and therefore anything you might find on ebay) don't have usb, but do have the CD burners.

    So all korg models have cd burners, which you can purchase upgrade yourself or buy stock.

    I am with Rod on this one. For the price, Korg has really nailed it in terms of having just about everything you'd need as a beginner. I tried the yammy and the roland, and the korg beat them both out for me... (usb feature mostly).

    The D1200 is limited to 4 simultaneous recording inputs (only 2 with XLR), but this could do for folk musicians/garage band guys at $800. A couple of Marshall/Studio Projects or similar mics for a few hundred and you're still around 1K. hey, you can do drums with just overheads for that nice jazz/garage sound. :)

    Also a word on the pres on the Korg: touchy gain stage. they are ok, pretty sterile, but you only get good levels if the trims are pegged, and then you have to be careful of overs. So most Korg-heads also have their own pres and an RNC.

    Lastly, after doing this for years, I can't say how much I personally prefer recording on the Korg over the PC. Mixing is ok on it as well, but editing is a different story, as it will be with anyone who has used a PC to swap wave files around and cut em up.

    But almost editing capability is present in the Korgs, down to scrubbing, reversing polarity/phase, normalizing, taking out pops and clicks...you name it. Once you learn the interface, you can get pretty efficient at editing, just like anything else (read HD24 and others)

    I really think one of these units (d1600 or 1200) with a few cheaper mics is the way to go for a beginner. The fact it just works (no IRQ conflicts) alone is worth it. Even if you hate the editing interface, you can still get a decent mix, save the wave files for later more detailed editing on a PC.

    And, it will retain it's value as you learn and move up with better front end gear... with an apogee mini-me, or grace lunatec, Sytek 4 channel, and a couple of really decent mics, suddenly you're a step up in quality and you haven't lost anything.

    I love that little spaceship!
     
  13. Tore Nylund

    Tore Nylund Guest

    After hearing all about different brands of stand alone DAW's I must agree with Bob.... and maybe you could add the "rear end", like monitors and headphones for less than 500$?
    Make it more like "What you need to get a good sound in to your DAW" and maybe "What you need to hear if it sounds good"
    When it comes to recording format you could just point out the advantage and disadvantage of different formats... may just give a hint of good machines (HD-recorder, PC and so on)
     
  14. realdynamix

    realdynamix Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2001
    :) Ok, makes sense to me, a software selection and soundcard, probably their own PC?

    --Rick
     
  15. Rod Gervais

    Rod Gervais Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2003
    Location:
    Central Village, CT
    Home Page:
    Ummm........... let's move this back up to the top.........

    Rick asked a good question - and i don't thinks it's really been answered........

    So why don't some of your pros out ther compile what us "newbies" should be picking up?

    We'd really appreaciate it.

    (BY the way - it isn't your fault this got lost - I read through the thread and some moron took it on a tangent...... his name was Rod something or other....... :D )

    Rod (something or other)
     
  16. UncleBob58

    UncleBob58 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Location:
    Fairfield County, CT
    Home Page:
    Seems to me that maybe there should be a new forum category - ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS. Or just use the good ol' Small Steps - a beginner's guide to pro results

    Then have some sub categories:

    • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mics and Techniques

      Dyamic Processing Basics

      FX Processing Basics

      Mixing Basics

      Basic Equipment Selection

      Consoles

      DAWS

      Tips 'n' Tricks
    <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
    With the incredible people here at RO it would be a most phenominal resource.

    Peace,

    Uncle Bob

    :p:
     
  17. AudioGaff

    AudioGaff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2001
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    With so much info already available all over the net I think it would not be as productive to rehash the exact same info here. Links to that info might be better served.

    Also, there are so many good books that are available in covering all the basics that I would think it would be better to come to an agreement among us on suggesting 1-2 books newbies obtain and read and then they can ask specific questions that they may need better understanding of and/or that apply to their specific recording applications. We could also take on a topic per month to focus on or expand on a chapter from the book(s) we suggest. This would make it more of a workshop type of learning rather than just a free-for-all-topic-bouncing format.
     
  18. TREV

    TREV Guest

    I just wanted to say I enjoy the beginners section of the forum as well this thread has answered a lot of questions for me....

    I am still learning alot about my equipment and making songs with my mpc and keyboard....... and just reading the different choices and honest reviews on the stand alone DAW's ... is great.

    thanks for hanging out in the beginner section.....Trev
     
  19. vinniesrs

    vinniesrs Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    UNcle bob! You have it there. Maybe we should start threads with those topics for now, and see where it goes.

    With beginners maybe such topics would provide enough info that an intuitive purchase decision could be made based on need.

    I would think the logical place to start then, is mics.
    An absoulute minimum for anyone who wants to record a band would be two mics, but I'm going to suggest 3. Sure beta52, or pg52(depending on budget), sure sm57, and rode nt1.
    Drums, vox, guitars, bass, piano, wind, I think it's a good starter mic cache. If I had to limit to just one, I would take the rode.
     
  20. BennisHahn

    BennisHahn Guest

    I think I would fall into this beginner category and would like to add my 2 cents.

    What the0heck-good does 5 mikes with all the pre amps do for me if I can't record them? If we are talking absolute beginner, do you really think they will have the knowledge to use these units to their full potential? I would say no. I am one and I don't have a clue as to what they all do.

    After looking at about 20 forums like this one (although this is one of the better ones) and reading books and such, I would recommend something like this;

    Korg D1200CD (internal CD burner/USB) - $1,000
    Shure Sm57 - $90
    ART Mic Pre - $50-$100
    Behringer Compressor - $70-$100
    Fostex/M-audio/Event Monitors - $300

    Now that what I plan on assembling for a start and adding on mikes later. That is customized for my needs though. You also might want to think about having 3 or 4 different set-ups for different apps. One for live bands recording, one for midi/synths, both, vocals,/acoustic, ect...

    This way one can get a good acoustic/vocal song for about $1,000 and not spend another $500 for stuff they won't need.

    My main thought: Will they need/be able to hear the difference in really, really good equip or really good equip?

    -Bennis
     
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