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Summing - What track sounds better to you?

Discussion in 'Summing / Mastering consoles' started by audiokid, Mar 8, 2012.

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Summing - Which Track Do You Prefer?

Poll closed Apr 7, 2012.
  1. Sum 1

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  2. Sum 2

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  3. They both sound the same

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  1. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Location:
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    If you download the 2 electric piano mono tracks and the single stereo track and import them do they match? I see the right mono track different from the stereo. But lets try this.

    Do you hear any clipping in these to Sums now?

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  2. IIRs

    IIRs Well-Known Member

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    Oct 23, 2005
    In what way were my comments "inflammatory and degrading"?
     
  3. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Dan, You are distracting and debasing. There was no need to insult me. If you do it again, I will remove you. If you can't be respectful and helpful, you need to move on. And as usual, you have lowered a thread to passive conflict.
     
  4. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
     
  5. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Sorry, Don, I got distracted, we need to do this again. I inverted the piano track and never put it back. I'll re uploaded them again.

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  6. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Moving on while you are downloading again, lets assume if the inverted files didn't clip, the ones I just uploaded won't either. Keep these , not the others.

    These are summed with the stereo track you gave me. So something wonky occurred with the 2 mono tracks. I can't keep digging as too why, I have no idea. Main this is these two Sums are good and the clipping resolved itself, correct?

    I will redo what I did originally did and I'm certain the analog ones will be clip free. Lets see. Stand by :)

    Still having fun? smoke
     
  7. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    FWIW...I was curious what clipping in the DAW and the "non-issue" had to do with this?
    There was no clipping
    There was some sort of granular noise (either digital or analog) left over when nulling SUM1 and 2.
    And it was in the piano part not the synth part.
    audiokid thought it was clipping but I'm not convinced that's what were hearing.
    The left over null artifact always shows up when one sum track peaks just before hitting -6dbfs, so it's not clipping in the DAW.
    I feel this is an analog artifact that was processed after a second pass through the converters....???
    I might be totally all wet on this, but it would more helpful if IIRs had an opinion on that topic...
     
  8. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Sum 1 did not go through my converters. They are a sum of what you gave me . Once I used the stereo E Piano track, the grainy sound vanished. I am now summing those same tracks in analog.
     
  9. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    OK, I didn't hear anything strange with those, they were perfectly fine.
    After I adjusted the levels between the two they actually nulled pretty well without artifacts.
     
  10. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    I think it was something to do with Cubase when it split the stereo track to 2 mono's.
    This wouldn't have happened if I had just left it stereo and not try to be clever...my bad!
     
  11. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    IIRs have been suspend for continued side railing topics like this including insulting me, it was not necessary. If he could stay on track and helpful, it would be welcoming.
     
  12. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Glad to have solved that!

    I'm uploading the analog tracks now.
     
  13. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    One thing I would like to talk about is how these DAW's actually sum tracks versus what happens with summing using summing hardware. Maybe that's another topic thread but I would like to know your opinion.

    Without any plugins placed on two tracks in a DAW isn't the summing engine/algorithm just binary addition?
    When you sum with hardware there must be a certain amount of circuit electronics that imparts itself onto the signal as it passes through the box.
    I think the converter stage is for the most part transparent. I'm sure that's another argument and I'm willing to discount that stage of the process in my scenario.
    So...if your DAW is summing merely as binary math and there is no algorithm mimicking even a little bit of electronics into the signal then it would seem that the result ITB will be an unaltered pure sterile sum of the two tracks. Which will never sound the same as passing it through hardware electronics.
    The minute you add any plugin anywhere in the DAW to your summing you will impart something into the signal that could start to mimic what the hardware is doing.
    In other words without adding something to the DAW sum it will always sound sterile compared to hardware.
     
  14. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    Yeah, I don't understand why someone needs to bother other people having a discussion that interests them even if it's a hobby esoteric topic....or nonsense....it's interesting to me!
    Again this gets to your comments earlier about the professional level and the business aspects different people have going on. If IIRs is busy enough with his professional business then what purpose does it serve to post negative comments on a forum.

    All I got out of that was....I'm financially struggling with my recording studio business and I use plugins and stare at a screen all day because:
    1. I can't afford a hardware alternative and plugins are cheap.
    2. My clientele can't tell the difference, so why bother
    3. My time and workflow ITB is faster and more important to me than the quality of the recordings I sell.
    4. I will make more money if I can shove "kids" in and out through the door quickly
    5. And my clientele can't tell the difference, so why bother!
    But hey it's a business....and I agree wholeheartedly with that business model...business is competitive and they all try to find ways to increase there bottom line.....I say rock on!
     
  15. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Okay, I have too many files lol.

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  16. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

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    Got them...loading them into Cubase now.
    I really like this DropBox it is slick!
     
  17. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    YUP! smoke

    I'm kidding... Your questions are great but when it comes to the math, I'm just a guitar player messing around here. If it sounds right, thats all I'm working with.
    Digital will never sound the same as analog. Whether that is a good or bad thing is irrelevant. The analog modeling plug-ins are like digital keyboards compared to analog synths. They are missing copper and so far thats the part I like. This may change but for now, I like what I'm hearing and everything is just easier and more fun.

    The whole OTB OTB debate comes down to what we like. At our current state, I doubt either format would make a difference as a hit song. But I have read that compressed music with less dynamics do not stay find their way into the circle of great songs. There have been studies on this. So, if we are compressing that crap out of our songs, you can be sure people will grow tired of it faster than a nice warm analog track that is full of natural dynamics.
     
  18. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    Have you installed Dropbox 1.2.52. That is really slick. Once installed, all you do is save to that folder on your desktop and it loads to your account.
     
  19. audiokid

    audiokid Chris Staff

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    My thoughts on converters, they are the most important part of our DAW (and you thought your hearing wasn't that great!). Most people aren't listening this close so what you picked up on would go over most heads. Many think the mid level converters are as good as you need. But when we really start listening you can hear a difference. And that difference is grain, less open sounding, metallic colored, separation and SPACE.

    If I could have 16 ADDA of Lavry, I would. The difference is the part that make it easier for a track to sit in the mix without a crammed sound. Also, that last 2% I've mentioned before, that you only get with high end gear, it is my opinion this is where it counts. Its the tiny percent that rolls off like a reverb tail. Its the sweet spot between sounds that make them more of there own and not washed together. It is the separation.

    This is only my therory.
     
  20. djmukilteo

    djmukilteo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Rainy Roads WA USA
    Yes 1.2.52 is my current version.
    The upload and download process and linking is what I really like about it.
    And a free 2.2Gb cloud account is totally amazing!
    I can always delete files to stay below that figure.
    I've wanted to have a simple large cloud account for sharing files with collaborators so this is perfect...
    and if you refer someone else you each get an additional 250Mb of space up to 8Gb!
     
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