:)

What kind of music?? You may benefit better from using those on kick and snare, if the songs needs it. I use my better pres for the main drums since I don't need a really detailed OH image usually. Try it all out and see what works.

Deffinately overheads for me.

Phil Blackbourn wrote: overheads

Yup...

Overheads.

Snare and kick.

If you are using a 3 mic technique, which I do from time to time, you can always EQ or process the overheads to achieve any sound that you want, even more so if you haqve a convolution program or Mic Modeler.

If you have a killer snare and kick sound you can always make thing "work around" them.

Remember, most of the great sounding Led Zep drum tracks were recorded use 3 mics.

Just my opinion, don't hate me for it, I can give you many more reasons to do that.

7XL wrote:

you can always EQ or process the overheads to achieve any sound that you want, even more so if you haqve a convolution program or Mic Modeler.

Welcome 7XL! :D

I see this is your first post here on RO.

In that case please excuse the following:

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH

This is one of my biggest pet peaves! The concept of:

"Do what you want to the recording and fix it in the mix..."

I know that's not exactly what you said, so please pardon my paraphrasing. However, I obviously feel VERY strongly that the best and only solution is to get the sound you want with your mic and its placement and your preamp choice and use.

If you need to EQ, do it for the right reasons - ie. cutting resonances, adding a little sparkle, boosting thin bass, cutting overly fat bass (again, most of this can be done with mic placement or choice).

Please do not feel that it's okay to track something one way even if it sounds weak or wierd and that you can "fix it in the mix..." This will weaken you as an engineer.

Sorry - I have to rant from time to time...

J. 8-)

Cucco,

I did not mean "fix it in the mix", I don't ascribe to that philosphy myself.

But when given "limited" resources I find that the kick and the snare are the most important part of many drum recordings.

I refuse to record anything that doesn't sound "correct" to my ears.

Given the amount of processing power that we have available at our finger tips, you can track, in real time, using a convoltion program or mic modeling app much like you would with an outboard preamp.

I do agree that the best solution is to have 16 channels of high end mic pre's at your disposal, but many people do not have the same resources that I do. So in the situation that was described above , I feel that is the best solution.

As I stated above, this is my opinion, don't hate me for it, I'll be sure to give you a reason for that in the near future.

Also in case you have not noticed, I've been lurking here for quite a while, I finally felt like offering somebody some assistance.

For most pop/rock style music I would agree with 7XL, the Kick and Snare are the more important element of the drum kit. But for Jazz it would be the overheads.

But this is hardly an issue to debate over. With multitracking, you can record the kick/snare first, then overdub the overheads later. This allows one to use good pre's on everything (even thought you only have two), plus better instrument isolation for a cleaner sound.

7XL wrote: Cucco,

I did not mean "fix it in the mix", I don't ascribe to that philosphy myself.

But when given "limited" resources I find that the kick and the snare are the most important part of many drum recordings.

I refuse to record anything that doesn't sound "correct" to my ears.

Given the amount of processing power that we have available at our finger tips, you can track, in real time, using a convoltion program or mic modeling app much like you would with an outboard preamp.

I do agree that the best solution is to have 16 channels of high end mic pre's at your disposal, but many people do not have the same resources that I do. So in the situation that was described above , I feel that is the best solution.

As I stated above, this is my opinion, don't hate me for it, I'll be sure to give you a reason for that in the near future.

Also in case you have not noticed, I've been lurking here for quite a while, I finally felt like offering somebody some assistance.

That's cool. I didn't mean to offend. I just feel radically different about the subject.

While I agree that the kick and the snare are important, I also know that the majority, if not the entire kit can be picked up well from 2 overhead mics and 1 kick mic (different than the three mic technique to which you refer, but both good for their own reasons.)

I agree that not everyone is so fortunate as to have a rack load of pres, but given the resolution necessary to capture cymbals and toms, I recommend to emphasize these channels more than any others.

My $.02

J.

Almost always kick and snare.

I think it depends totally on what you are going for. If your goal is to get the majority of your kit through two overheads, I'd use it on them. If you plan on close micing everything and using overheads for "cymbal mics", then I'd use them on the kick and snare.

Personally, I prefer to get most of the picture of my kit from the overheads and use my other mics only if I need to bring an indivual drum out more. Therefore, I use my best stuff and spend the most time on the overheads. My 2 cents.

Wes

for rock music i would generally say kick and snare. the oh's can be captured with just decent pre's and mics.

now how about another question. if you had 2 neve pres and 2 api pres which would you use on what for recording drums?

Overheads for me.

rudedogg wrote: for rock music i would generally say kick and snare. the oh's can be captured with just decent pre's and mics. [

I'm with you man, for the most part. As long as your overhead mics are good, you can get away with something like a DMP3. Most people are going to say I am wrong though.

rudedogg wrote: now how about another question. if you had 2 neve pres and 2 api pres which would you use on what for recording drums?

I'm about to find this out for myself tomorrow (SCA clones). My first guess is Neve kick and snare, overheads API. But I will be trying J99's for overheads, N72's for kick/snare, and A12's for toms. Probably try swapping the N72s and A12s.

i got my n72s 2 days ago, i just haven't had time to build them. the a12's took me about 3 hours for the first one, and 1.5 hours for the 2nd. hopefully the n72s will go faster.

what i need is time! i got 2 gigs for my band tonight 8pm and 11pm, and then i have to record some friends all day saturday and another session on sunday.

let me know how the N72s sound on drums!

steve

ps. sorry to hijack the thread. now back to: "why everyone except steve and reggie think you should use your best pres on overheads"

I will put my unneeded two cents worth in. I know how that TASCAM M2600 console sounds. Put your cheap microphones (hopefully SM57s or equivalent) through the TASCAM, for bass and snare drum. You may want to turn on the pad and run your preamp gain higher, for better head room. Plus, with the preamp running a higher gain and lower negative feedback, it will produce a more open sound.

Put your best 2 microphones on the Neve preamps. Do not run them more than 3 feet above the kit, for greatest drum + cymbal combined coverage and articulation.

Reggie wrote: My first guess is Neve kick and snare, overheads API.

Now i'd go the other way round - I think a 57 sounds great through an API.

A very good question.

Lots of differing views too.

While I'm certainly not an expert......ok, I'm kind of an expert.....

I do get good drums.........

Here's my take. Either method will work. It is ENTIRELY dependant on the drummer, his style of playing, his kit, the tuning of it, the drum area aka: 'environment'.......see, nothings really easy ....except my last wife....errr.....where was I....

Ok. A drummer who plays a 'backbeat'....uhh...kinda drags the beat a touch....accents off of the basic trap....This is the guy you want the good stuff on the kick and snare.

The 'Etheral' guy whos always pawing the cymbals and has a delicate touch on the toms and wont stay the hell off of em for over a measure or two....this guy gets the overheads.

For what its worth....A rock oriented song, which has most of its emphasis on the thud and crush will need the kick and snare to be as high end as possible.

Jazz songwise, overs......

You Have an API and a Neve? I have the same! No? Aww, it's all bitchin'! Just have a Tascam, with Neve's? It'll all sound great! Rock-and-roll boogie woogie!! That is groovy hip talk, modernese! Have fun!

Davedog wrote:

Here's my take. Either method will work. It is ENTIRELY dependant on the drummer, his style of playing, his kit, the tuning of it, the drum area aka: 'environment'.......see, nothings really easy ....except my last wife....errr.....where was I....

Very true Dave. Indeed it's all about experimentation.

Zilla wrote: But this is hardly an issue to debate over. With multitracking, you can record the kick/snare first, then overdub the overheads later. This allows one to use good pre's on everything (even thought you only have two), plus better instrument isolation for a cleaner sound.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Amazingly enough, ONLY Davedog and remyRad have REALLY answered correctly. A jazz nod to rudedogg and boltino.

Zilla...when was the last time you recorded a drummer? really would like to hear how he did, playing two drums at a time, per take. smokin' grooves, dude!

The correct answer is, you use the good pres on which ever two mics are destined to become your PRIMARY drum sound.

Anyone who said that it HAS to be on the OH's, is a lying sack of dung at least some of the time, and might accidentally be correct some of the time.

Anyone who said use them on your best mics doesn't process beyond the "ohh, look at the shiny pretty thing" level. Now, don't get me wrong...I have found myself looking around the CR in the dark, marvelling at all the pretty lighted meters and leds and stuff...no denying its a fun part of the gig!

dwoz

Overheads are a logical choice but not always the best choice. Your best two mic pre's might be much better served on kick or snare, and the generic Tascam mixer mic pre's on everyting else. Depending on what mic's you will be using, makes the decision even more complex. There are other many variables as well. I'm a believer of doing the right thing. Try using/listening to the different variations until you find the best one. No shortcuts or being lazy if you want to succeed. It is all about the exploration and the journey of doing real audio engineering that gives you the knowledge and experience so that you don't have to ask anybody else questions you are capable of answering yourself. After all, it's not what we think and believe would be best, it is what you think and believe is best for the material you are working on.

:twisted:

of course, our intrepid thread creator forgot to mention that he'd be bandpassing the drum tracks, and then re-amping them through a peavey guitar amp that was being fed a 25% mains overvoltage using a Shure bullet harmonica mic into a behringer autocomp.

Audiogaff...should he include these factors in his cartesian product test matrix? If so, does that mean he calls the talent in NEXT week or in TWO weeks to actually play the track?

:-)

dwoz

aren't emoticons just the BEST?

dwoz

Audiogaff...should he include these factors in his cartesian product test matrix?

I think you need to include and consider all factors that you have available to you before you can come to any confident and conclusive decision, including those made from any kind of test matrix.

As a drummer I would say that if you have only 2 good preamps you should use them on overheads. If the whole kit can't sound great then you'll be probably forced to use a sound replacer or a drumagog for snare/kick/toms sounds but you won't be able to replace overheads...so..the choice is simple in my opinion.

just my 2 cents

btw. I would run and rent couple of great preamps anyway :)

chris

dwoz wrote: Zilla...when was the last time you recorded a drummer? really would like to hear how he did, playing two drums at a time, per take. smokin' grooves, dude!

Sarcasm?

Well, many a classic "smokin' groove" drum track has been recorded using such a technique. Usually a preliminary scratch drum track is recorded to get the right performance feel. Then various drum elements are overdubbed. Its basically sound replacer with an artist instead of a computer. You potentially get the best of both worlds: desired performance + good sonics.

if those drum-elements are tambourine, cowbell and shakers, then i'm following you but i have a hard time believing that there are many drummers capable enough to *tightly* play kick/snare on 1 take, just the toms on the next, just the cymbals/hats on another and actually get a good, natural sounding recording. Furthermore, i find it hard to believe that any engineer worth his salt would even consider this obviously painful procedure as an option...

I'd take the possibilities a step further:

Most people are saying either overheads or Kick and Snare Top. Those are both good choices, no doubt. And definitely, it depends on the drummer you're recording.

However, it also depends on the sound you're trying to get from song to song. And in that vein, I offer up a third choice:

Stereo Rooms

I use stereo rooms on all of our drum tracks. Sometimes they end up muted. Sometimes they're the dominant mics. The point is, if you want a Led Zepplin sound (or Mercury Rev, or Flaming Lips, etc), then you mic the kick and set up two room mics. For the right song and the right drummer, the sounds is killer.

Sorry to complicate things...!! :) The truth is (to echo Dave), there are many possibilities. Good luck!

rudedogg wrote: i got my n72s 2 days ago, i just haven't had time to build them. the a12's took me about 3 hours for the first one, and 1.5 hours for the 2nd. hopefully the n72s will go faster.

what i need is time! i got 2 gigs for my band tonight 8pm and 11pm, and then i have to record some friends all day saturday and another session on sunday.

let me know how the N72s sound on drums!

steve

ps. sorry to hijack the thread. now back to: "why everyone except steve and reggie think you should use your best pres on overheads"

Hijack Continuation:

I finally had a chance to record some drums and guitars this past weekend using several SCA pres. On the table were: 2 A12, 2N72, and 2 J99. I really wish I had more time to fool around with them, but time was going to be tight to get everything tracked. So I defaulted the J99s to overheads. Best sound ever?! I got a great sound out of just these alone. Used the A12s for toms and snare; sounded great and crisp. Used N72 for kick and also on snare on a track. Sounded great again. I think I like the N72 a little better on snare than A12 (really grabbed a lot of sound), but I could really go either way. Used N72 on guitar=fantastic. J99 for acoustic=great. Nice to have all this pre variety now, but sometimes it feels like picking your favorite child to take to the park. :cry:

That is if I actually had children.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Zilla is right. This is a rather old method....err...old as in late 70's and 80's...pre-computer. The drums were simply laid down as snare/kick to the bass track and perhaps a guide vocal/guide guitar.

The 'KEY' element being, having a drummer with enough chops to find a wholesome groove like this and carry it through the song leaving space for the 'other' drum elements.

I play with one now, and have played with several over the years that could do this easily.

It really makes the tracks VERY VERY clean......never have to gate....You can mic the heck outta stuff....you can seriously concentrate on tone.....theres a bunch of reasons for it...

Its not really a method thats in favor these days....perhaps the drummers arent as good..... :roll:

kick and snare.

the two most important and up-front parts of any drum mix.

yesss

Im no expert either, but in most case i end up recording really heavy rock and metal. I end up with a wall of sound, if there is anyway for that kick and snare to push out more or have more transient and punch im down.

but hey, if it were a nice open jazz recording, then i could see wanting that nice image of the kit to be more predominant. no rules. cheers davedog.

Re: yesss

ShoeBoxDude wrote: Im no expert either, but in most case i end up recording really heavy rock and metal. I end up with a wall of sound, if there is anyway for that kick and snare to push out more or have more transient and punch im down.

hard rock and metal usually use some sort of trigger/sound replacement thing. i would highly suggest the combination of trigger/soundreplacer AND the real drum sounds. just mix the trigger a little higher than the real kick for metal, and mix the real drum a little higher than the trigger for hard rock.

$0.02

steve

Zilla wrote: For most pop/rock style music I would agree with 7XL, the Kick and Snare are the more important element of the drum kit. But for Jazz it would be the overheads.

But this is hardly an issue to debate over. With multitracking, you can record the kick/snare first, then overdub the overheads later. This allows one to use good pre's on everything (even thought you only have two), plus better instrument isolation for a cleaner sound.

Since many of us use some sort of a DAW, I'd take that method a step further so to speak and allow the drummer to use the whole kit. Then, if you opt for replacement, all parts can easily be replaced by using the original recording as a guide. I'm not suggesting that you do it that way, but it is another option if you have higher quality drums samples at your disposal.

Also, someone suggested mic and pre choice don't matter with the advent of convolution and mic modeling programs. Well, I don't think I'd take things that far just yet. Unfortunately, those convolution plugins don't really add back to the audio what a good mic would capture. However, those convolution plugins are excellent for some creative coloring--so, have at it.

-Erik

Is this a good idea?

Two mics + Two pres = Overheads.
Eq overheads for use as triggers to be sound replaced.
Use sound replacer to replace poor represented sounds (kick, snare, toms).
Re-Amp the new generated/sound replaced "drum kit" for an interesting room tone/space/what-have-you.
Possibly Phase Align (nudge by samples) till you get the desired "room-drum kit" sound.
Finally, add some verb, add some delay, add some whatever-makes-it-sound-better to the mix.
Most importantly, have a good drummer, good room, good sounding kit, and a good song.

Damn, wish I had more than one mic at this moment... guess I'll stick to rap for now.

Hmmm...

I can't believe anyone would suggest that Zilla isn't "worth his salt" as it was stated. Check his credentials dude - more commercially released/credited records than most any of us here.

What he's suggesting is perfectly fine assuming 2 things:

1. The drummer is worth HIS salt. IOW, he plays a lick and can REPLAY the same thing. Or in even more words - he intentionally plays what it is that he plays - not just a bunch of flailing sticks and feet.

2. If the drums aren't what I refer to as "Monkey Drumming." This is the effect of when you put a sh*tty drummer on a throne, hand him a pair of sticks and instead of chucking his feces, he's momentarily occupied by the hard objects in his hands and thus starts to beat the drums and cymbals senselessly until something in the room is bleeding.

IMHO, this kind of drumming is rampant and NEEDS to be stopped. How many GOOD rock tunes out there just have the drummer beating the crap out of his kit?

Not too many.

Most are quite rhythmic and provide BACKING to the tracks - not melody! (A lot of drummers seem to think they ARE the melody instrument!)

A good drummer is one who plays intentionally and can repeat his actions IN RHYTHM. When you find one of these guys, KEEP HIM on retainer. (I've got 3 of them! I'm VERY lucky! All three have advanced degrees in percussion from various universities including Berklee. These guys can easily lay multiple tracks in a drum backing track.)

J.

Cucco wrote: Hmmm...

I can't believe anyone would suggest that Zilla isn't "worth his salt" as it was stated. Check his credentials dude - more commercially released/credited records than most any of us here.

What he's suggesting is perfectly fine assuming 2 things:

J.

...and those two things are: a) you've got days and days of budget to screw around in the studio. Kind of makes the question of "if I only have two pres" MOOT. If you can afford to be in the studio for days to single-drum overdub the kit, then you can CERTAINLY afford to rent in a couple more pres for a day.

b) you are incapable of getting a good kit sound. Maybe its YOU...maybe its the kit...maybe its the drummer...maybe its the room... I would posit that whatever problem is preventing you from getting good tone in the first place, will STILL be a problem with Zilla's technique.

So, With all due deference to Zilla's discography, which is probably great, I must question his guidance in this thread. Maybe he's used to working with umpteen-close-mic-every-drum-damn-the-torpedoes-and-phase-nightmares producers...

dwoz