cause u live in scotland i'd recomeend the following for drums!
go check the store digital village!
kick- akg d112 (for bass too)
snare- shure sm 57
toms- audix d2
overheads- studio projects c4

this should be around your budget at that store! if you can use an akg c451 for hi-hat!
but try buying good mics and not on your budget! you'll do better with this than having spent less but miking all!
get rid of the akg c1000s! they stink!
think less is more! don't think is just mics! quality really matters!
as for the mic placements there are tons of articles out there! do a little search!

Thanks for that. But you seem to have ignored a lot of what I was asking including all of my existing mics and whether my proposed usage is good.

Are the C1000s really that bad?

you say you want to make clever choices so i'm telling you how! why the hell would you buy a mxl990 mic? you call that clever? think this! good mics cost money! money you don't have so instead of trying to spend the little you have in a lot of mics try buying fewer mics but with good quality!
and yes the c1000s are really that bad!
for bass you don't mic the bass with a room mic unless you really like booming sounds! for the bass you can use the akg d112 for close micing and record direct too! then in the mood of the song you have this 3 options! combined or separated!
hi hat is miked at the opposite side of the snare cause of leakage!
but you are better of with no mic on the hi-hat or even can try the rode, altough i think it's capsule ain't appropriate... but it's better to have good overheads than the c1000s and a cheap hi-hat mic too...
less is more!

look mate. I am well aware good mics cost money. but whats with your attitude?

i've got plenty of money, i am just using it to buy an excellent drum kit, and think that with a couple of clever choices i have enough mics for the level i am at.

i asked for advice, not abuse.

i stated clearly in the first post that i know the mxl990 is very average but it cost me GBP £30 so i thought it'd be a good backup.

both OlympicPhil and johnyoung recommended the C1000s in another thread as did the guy at Sound Control when I discussed this with him. http://www.recording.org/postx21384-0-15.html

i have been told by many people the SE3500 is a good kick drum mic.

i priced your suggestions and it comes to about £800-900 assuming 3 of the d2s at DV.

i can't believe i spent $20 to support this forum and this is the first response i get.

maybe you weren't trying to be rude?? anybody else wanna assist me?

inLoco wrote: why the hell would you buy a mxl990 mic? you call that clever?

Actually, for what it costs, the 990 is an amazingly good mic. I have a pair that I use as drum overheads.

Here's a quote from a well respected member if the Digi User Conference (DUC)

......those of you thinking the 990 is large diaphragm...it isn't. It's identical in every way to the 991 except for the housing. If you think you see a large di inside of the housing, it's because the mounting ring for the small di is HUGE! That aside, I dig mine...use them often anywhere I want a good flat neutral sound. So, the 990 and 991 are the same thing internally...and are supposedly also identical to the 603s.

and a little later........

...I don't want people to think I was downing these mics...they're great! They are very well suited to classical strings and piano. They have absolutely no hype at all, are very low noise, and are very well engineered. It's EXTREMELY RARE to find ANY mass produced mics these days where they don't scrounge on the parts! They definitely didn't cut any corners in the parts department electronically...they use the famed 2sk170 fets that are remarkably difficult to acquire here in the U.S. I like to use the 990's as room mics (the enclosure does have a pronounced affect on the sound of the mic in this case) and the 991's as overheads for Jazz kits, as symphony spot mics on string sections, and on solo grand piano. They remind me very much of the old Neumann KM84's (not the reissue 184's).

While the condenser capsule itself is a relatively cheap model by today's standards (chinese or japanese...can't remember), I think they've really made a good mic with it.

and back to the main topic.... yes, the C1000's suck big time. Sell them and add the preceeds to your budget.

Get a second 990 and use them as overheads.

The NT1A is wasted on the hats. Use it as a room mic. I always mic the hats but rarely end up using that track. Always seem to get plenty in the OH and snare mics. With that in mind, any little condenser will probably do. Try something like a Beyer Opus53. I use one of these on hats live and it sounds great.

I'm not a fan of condensers inside a kick... outside, ok.... but inside try a AKG D112, Shure Beta52, Beyer M88, EV RE20, Sennheiser MD421..... depending on budget and what deals you can get.

Then use the Beta57 on the snare, the 57s and 58s on the toms and you're all set.

i'm not trying to be rude! i'm just being straight forward... i learned with my mate josé mourinho... :-)
don't trust everything you hear and read! many companies pay people to say good stuff about their products, either at forums like these or in magazines...
and about the mxl i'm not saying it isn't a good mic! i've never tried it but for the price and the reviews i can see it's a fair/average mic for a beginner! you stated you want quality so i recommended that you'd invest in fewer but better mics! and why do you need a backup like the mxl? for that price you can save a bit more and have another sm57, that yes is a great backup...
just the other day i was reading about the recording of drums on velvet revolver's cd contraband... there's one track that as been recorded with a technique of a producer i don't recall but i can tell you later if you want!
he recorded the whole kit with if i recall 4 mics and it sounds amazing!
i'm now gathering info too, for buying a few stuff and it's what i recommend if you want quality! for what i understood you want quality not just fun!
it's like when buying a pre-amp! those focusrite voicemasters and alikes won't do much compared to the ones on your vlz! so why spend unecessary bucks? save them for when you have 1000 pounds! then you'll buy a top notch pre!
it's just like mics!
so in conclusion, don't get me wrong but try to buy less but things you imagine using in 5 years! (when you're on a top notch studio recording... eheheh)

I understand where you're coming from but just to digress for a moment. I've been a guitar player for 20 years, into recording for about 3 years and opened my studio in May. While I fully understand the mantra I have read on so many pro audio forums of "don't buy three things costing £300, buy one for £1000" obviously with building the place etc budgets are limited and you need one of everything (mics, cables, pres, desk, compressor, DAW/HDR/ADAT, backline) before you start. Hence the VLZ desk, getting an MXL just-in-case, 57s/58s, VC3Q, etc.

Some things have been necessary evils. For example, 2 weeks after I opened I was asked to do a live recording of a funk band with an 8-piece drumkit. The PG set was the cheapest way of getting this done at short notice!

Now I am at the stage where I can start investing slowly and carefully in key items. The first one is the drumkit. I am awaiting shipping of an all-maple Ludwig from the US following advice from this forum.

I know I can manage with the guitars using the 57s and a condensor or two, and would just like to know which one (obviously I need to use my ears, but I'd rather have advice on good starting points than learn everything blind).

Bass I have a Sansamp DI, and will manage with that too, or use the d112 once I get it.

So just dealing with the drums just now. If I sell the PGs and the C1000s and replace with two C4s and a D112? Or better just to get a D112, a single MXL990 and buy a K2 for vocals?

What about snare? will I struggle without a 2nd snare mic? I can probably get a Beyer M201 in amongst all this.

Once this changeover is done, I have a live band to record, then my first individually - tracked project. Fingers crossed the Ludwig arrives for the latter.

Thanks again for help.

J

the d112 and c4's is a great choice as is the k2! there are alot of people digging that mic so i think you can't go wrong with it! also you have the tube mic from sp's too! if you can try them head to head!
as for the 2nd snare mic isn't a must! actually you have to study much about phase issues! when using two snare mics you have to invert one!
the sm57 for the snare is top notch!!!
if you use d112, d2 for toms, sm57 for snare and c4's for overheads you probably with a good acoustic and mic placement you won't need the hi-hat at first! if you don't have the money for now it's ok! in therms of money i'd suggest the k2 or similiar instead of spending money on a hi-hat mic!
other thing you didn't mention is your a/d!
you can record 8 tracks to your daw? which one?

Its only Cubase SL. When I was starting I ran a cracked SX which worked super but I didn't need the functions, so when I got the money, I bought Cubase SL2.

I've been using Cubase since the Atari ST days so I don't know if I would ever go to ProTools.

I run through the Mackie into an Edirol FA301 I think, 8 ins, plus 2 digitals, 10 outs same.

With a Lacie d2 Firewire 800 I get 8 simultaneous channels at 48/24 into my laptop (G4 Powerbook). I am just trying to nail down 32-bit floating point.

Definitely lookin' at the D112 and C4 pair, plus a K2 just now. I may decide to get an MXL as they are so cheap and then do the C4s with the d2s, which will need to wait until the Ludwig kit is restored, tuned & reskinned.

For the guitar amps whats the best to use for a 1m condensor, the SE? The NT1A?

Should I just sell the NT1A? I'm gonna keep the SE for vocals if the K2 doesn't suit people, and just use the 57s on the toms, 58 on the floor tom?

don't sell the nt1a! it's a good mic for it's price and you can find it new for around 180 euros, so selling it in 2nd hand you won't get much! rather keep the money! as for the c1000's sell them! many people think those mics are ok so you can still get a few bucks with it!
as for condenser with the guitar is a matter of trying! we all know how the sm 57 works centered and angled! which is cool! as for condensers try!
my other question is! what's the latency on that edirol?
and stick with the 24bits!

edirol's giving me 13ms at 512kb but thats no issue as i have no need to monitor when going 8-track.

i think from memory i get 4.7 at 128 for single-tracking

however all of this was to the internal hard drive i haven't finished testing what i can get with the firewire 800. as the buffer comes down so does the chance of one track skipping during the head movements.

1ghz powerbook 17" with 1ghz ddr

akgs on ebay in the morning......

jeemy this is my advice but listen to others too...
kurt foster, maintiger, audigaff, they all give great advices!
they have tones of experience!

Hopefully they'll have time to contribute before I sell anything except the PGs which are gone....J

I'm with inLoco ... sell the c1000s ...

The only mics in the bunch I would keep are the 57's & 58's. But that's me ... I am sure the rest are fine.. although I really don't like the Marshall / MXL line .. for Chinese mics, I prefer the Studio Projects line .. A lot of people like the Rode mics ... myself, I just don't care for them .. they have not excited me when I use them.

It's seems as if you and inLoco have hammered out a plan that is do-able. Good luck!

I also agree with InLoco and Kurt,

I would sell the C1000s and buy SP C4's, $319 for a matched Pair w/ shockmounts and case at http://www.sweetwater.com/

I also don't care for the MXL's, if you decide to sell it you could get another SM57 for around the same price.

I also recomend the D112 it's a great Kick Mic. Others I've used and liked are Audix D6 and Shure B52.

Now here is where I differ, I like the NT1. I record mainly Blues and Rock and it fits my voice well. Kurt is correct that it is not an exicting mic, but it is a decent sounding sevicable mic.

Here are my kit mics if it helps
C4's - Overheads
D112 - Kick
SM57 - Underside of snare
D2's - Toms
No hat mic.
I use Recordermans technique to set my overheads. If you haven't heard of it I'll put a link at the end so you can check it out. It sounds better than any method I've ever used. The over heads capture about 90% of the sound, add a little kick and a little compression and most of the time your done. I still mic and track the snare and toms but they rarely make it to the final mix. I only add them if a part needs a little punch. You can literally mic a whole kit with 3 mics and have it sound great. Here's the link.

http://www.recording.org/postlite9909-.html

Another one to check out is Kurt's article on how to EQ a kit. I always had a problem getting the Kick and Bass to sit together in the mix without covering each other up. This sound page shows you how to EQ the kit properly. This helped me carve out a space for the bass and kick and now I have 2 distinct insturments.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2466&alid=816

Good Luck and I wish you success.

Thank you so much!

This forum is so huge, I've been going through the Pro Audio page-by-page, reading everything that looked applicable to me, but had still not found these even at page 10 - I might never have found them.

I am still selling the PGs, they will be replaced with a D112. C1000s are hopefully going back to the shop, for exchange for the C4s, if he can match the UK RRP of £309. dv247 asking £200 each for those though so doubtful, if not will import from America, hanging onto the C1000s until then, which gives me overheads in the meantime.

MXL990 I will sell for a profit hopefully. And yes, another SM57 (or Beta 57??) is a grand idea.

That gives me:

Kick / bass: D112
Toms: 3 x SM57, or 2 x SM57, SM58?
Snare: SM57 Beta, if I use a 58 on the floor tom, 57 for the reverse too.
Overheads: C4s

Guitar: SM57 for close, NT1A or SE for room.

Vox: SE3500, NT1A as choice just now. K2 in time.

I think the K2 will be the first of my top-end vox mics. After which I am looking at the SE Z5600 or Gemini with interest. Or a more obvious choice like a secondhand U47,87,TM103, etc.

Sounds good. Gonna check those articles and then ask for some advice on developing my room acoustics and EQ skills. If you've seen any articles that are good pointers, your help is appreciated!

I will also join the keep the 57's and plan to sell everything else overtime.

I would much rather have 5 or 6 good mics than a continuing collection of compromises.

You don't have anything for vocals really except for the 57.
You only need 4 mics for drums. Unless you are a grizzely seasoned pro you won't know what to do with anymore mics and I guaranty your mixes will suffer using more than 4 or maybe 5 mics on drums.

If you really have the money than, rent great mics until you have the business or the cash to justify purchasing them.

Thats my opinion.

You only need 4 mics for drums.

I totally agree with this statement.
The fewer mics used, the bigger the sound. That doesn't mean that you can't use spot mics on toms and such but, try to get 99% of your final drum sound with kick-snare-2 overheads.

Phase coherancy is such a large issue with mulitple mics that the easiest way to deal with it is fewer mics.

Chris

As someone who has been doing drums with 2, 3, 4 mics long before it was "fashionable" let me add a couple of thoughts to the "size" aspect.

The "size" and clarity will depend on a few exceptionally variable factors, not the least of which is the drummer. Other influences come deeply into play when mic'ing drums with a minimal mic'ing technique. The tuning of the drums is always important, but with individual mic'ing you can fix things like the envelop of a specific drum's sound with compression or expansion, two options that are not available to you with a minimal mic'ing scenario... so you really have to be exceptionally anal about drum tunings.

The other thing that comes seriously into play with minimal drum mic'ing events is the sound of the room. When you close mic drums you can kinda put them in any digitally conceived room you'd like, and you can put each drum into that room to the degree you would like. With the minimal mic'ing thing, you are pretty much locked into the sound of the room as it applies to the sound in the overheads [or in my case, overhead (singular)].

The one thing most "home recording" environments share is a boxiness around 4-700 Hz... which gets the drums sounding like 'cardboard' in a big hurry... couple a boxy sounding room with a drum tuning that can be used for gigging [a deader thud tuning that works well in a sound reinforcement system with a whole lot of subwoofer action but will generally sound somewhere between a 1975 Eagles record and complete crap when recorded] and you're going to be in drum hell.

As the AMS driven "cat sneeze" reverb began to leave drum sounds in the 1990's, we found a return to some of the good ol' drum sounds of yesteryear... in that return it became apparent that some of the more jazz oriented tunings like you'll find on old records ranging from Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath to Sly and the Family Stone and the Rolling Stones was more in tune to a lot of current musical genre.

These jazz tunings are created with different head combinations and are highly room dependent... they will also need to be varied from song to song. Bottom line, unless you are pretty good at tuning drums, or are working with a drummer that is very good at tuning drums I would suggest that you shy away from minimal drum mic'ing when doing "records". Practice drum tuning stuff on demos here and there until you're good enough to do it on product where the overall sonic quality of your work will be judged by perspective clients.

Until you have sounds that are worthy of being recorded, it really doesn't matter what the hell you use to record them. Once you have sounds that are worth being recorded, then [and pretty much only then] you can start to examine the tones and textures of the tools employed to capture the sounds as they relate to the overall context of the presentation of the song.

I hope this is of some assisttance.

Its all good, I haven't read it carefully yet but would like to quickly ask the following.

The store I bought the C1000s from will accept them as a return, but cannot supply C4s. They can give me a set of Rode NT5s.

As I need to fix the overhead mic situation quickly, is this an acceptable choice? I will also be picking up a D112 and use that with the 57 Beta for my drum sound.

I will definitely be selling the PGs, the MXL, and I think the NT1A.

But I think the SE3500 is going to be good enough for vocals, its certainly based on a Neumann and they have built for some reputable people. Dependent on this or the NT1A working better on the next 2 demos I do this Saturday/Sunday, one will go.

Anyone got any decent websites for drum tuning advice? I found this one:

http://www.drummingweb.com/tuning.htm

But any more links appreciated, gonna tune the drums in 4ths on Saturday morning as advised above.

Thoughts on the NT5s appreciated!

Jamie

can't u trade the c1000 for the akg d112 and a sm 57 or money back... or aren't you thinking of the k2? trade them and give them the rest of the money so you can have the k2

Anyone got any decent websites for drum tuning advice?

Yeah go to
http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/misc/drumtuning.pdf

Yeah, Peavey, go figure huh.?

It's simple, it works and it's free. Unlike most things in life.

Hope this helps.

Chris

inLoco,

I can't manage without drum o/hs? so shurely I need to trade the C1000s for other o/hs?

Jamie

Chris,

Cheers for the link. Neither of these mention which notes you should tune the drums too though,

Any thoughts,

J

the NT1 I have is actually ok for hi hat... you might want to try yours in that capacity- I've also used it in overheads with passable results- not too good on snare, though- Haven't tried it on kick and I suspect that it might be to brittle but hey, try it and see. (and let us know)
But Im with in locco here, don't sell the NT1, you can put it to many uses-

oh, another surprise was that I lent my friend my 2 oktavas 319's and he used them for overheads for surprinsingly good results... I would have never though of using them in that capacity but it goes to show you that you really have to try things out and see for yourself...

One "note" oriented tip I can offer is to start with the snare drum tuned to a "D"... from there you have so many options that I would be exceptionally uncomfortable making suggestions that could be taken as anything resembling gospel truth.

"The store I bought the C1000s from will accept them as a return, but cannot supply C4s. They can give me a set of Rode NT5s."

I have no personal experience with the NT5's but when I was shopping for OH's, Maintiger recomended C4's or NT5's. You may want to get his opinion of how they compare to the C4's and of course listen to them yourself. In the begining most of us are forced to make some compromises due to budget. Just try to limit the compromises you make and when you must compromise choose gear that will serve you well even after you upgrade to better gear. I really wanted C451's for my OH's but at $1000 a pair that was most of my drum mic budget. I bought the C4's but also got the D112, (3) D2's and another pair of SM57's for around the same price as the C451's and the only thing that I'll replace is the C4's. But the C4's will still be useful for acoustic guitar, amp mic's or room mic's. The savings here and in other areas will go toward my first good pre. Remember get advice here but let your ears be the final judge.

As far as what Fletcher stated in his post it is true. A bad room and minimal mic's can sound really bad but it doesn't have to be that way. I record in a 25' x 25' basement with (2) homemade gobos and a corner bass trap and my kit sounds great. You stated you intend to seek advice on acoustic treatments, that will go a long way toward getting far improved sound on all of your tracks. Other things that will help is to use the cardiod capsules instead of the omni's on the OH's. You'll get far less room sound this way. Also you should still mic and track all of the drums as this will give you more choices at mixdown but your main sound can come from the OH's. With a well tuned kit, cardiod capsules and some acoustic treatments there's no reason you can't get a great sound also.

"Cheers for the link. Neither of these mention which notes you should tune the drums too though,"

You don't actually tune the drums to any one note. They are tuned to fit in with the overall tone of the music and the style of the drummer. A guy who really beats the crap out of the drums will sound completely different than say a jazz player on the same set.
I would suggest listening to some drummers that play in the style that you will be recording. This will give you a general idea of how to tune for that style. For example punk drummers usually tune their snares up real high for that thonk sound whereas rock drummers usually tune lower for a crisp crack when the snare is hit.
These are just generalities and your ears will tell you more than these words. Another idea is to check out Kurt's sound page I posted for you, the snare and toms tuning is clearly evident on the tracks. Also all drums have a sweet range that they sound best tuned to. Try to find that range, if it sounds flabby and dead your to low. If it rings like a bell with odd overtones or inconsistant tone your too high. Try to avoid being too high as it stretches the head in odd ways and probably won't tune properly again.

Hope this helps, Good Luck!

Hey,

Well its all sorted better than I could have imagined!

The C1000s, and the SE are going back to the shop. He is selling me a Z2 and a D112.

2 C4s are on their way from the states.

The NT1A is going to go if my buyer is still there, as are the PGs and MXL. I'll be miking the drums using the low overhead technique noted earlier above.

This gives me:

D112
2 x C4
2 x 57, 1 x 57 beta
2 x 58
K2

- which I hope you will all agree is a great improvement.

I am assuming the k2 will wipe the nt1a in terms of room mics and distant cab mics. I have only infrequent use for this anyway.

As regards drum tuning, don't wanna get off topic but although I understand the drums aren't tuned to one constant note, its just a starting point I lack.

What I have gleaned so far is that the starting point is the resonant frequency of the shells. Then tune the skins so they are in tune with each other at each lug and resonate in tune with the head. There are 3 or 4 resonant frequencies.

Either work from the bass drum (beater skin in tune with the shell, front skin just off slack), and then tune the floor tom top skin to a fourth above that, bottom skin a fourth above that, and so on up. This works well for 10/13/16 sets, for 12/13/16 use thirds.

Or tune both heads to the shell's frequency. Then tune the upper head up a bit, and the lower head down a bit.

Snare I guess to D and that is a good starting point.

I will be posting info on my live room (18x25 foot with basstraps, some walls damped, some with checkerboard areas) and control room (rectangular crap at present) up as the next part of my learning quest.

Thank you all so much and I look forward to being of assistance on the computer hardware and software side of things in turn! Best,

Jamie

Jamie,
The best advice I can offer when it comes to tunig drums is find a drummer in your area that really knows his / her stuff and who has a good sounding kit ... then pay them to come by your studio every month or so and do basic maintenance and tuning on your drum kit. Pay attentio to what they do when they visit and after a while you should pick it up.

Excellent advice Kurt. A drummer who knows how to tune a set properley would be your best instructor. You will pick it up quickly once you know what a well tuned kit sounds like. One other thought, since you live in a rather rainy climate you may want to keep an eye on the tuning more often than say a person in an arid climate. I use a dehumidifier in my studio to control humidity levels all year round. It keeps my expensive insturments at a constant 40% and 68 degrees F w/ HVAC.

I been playing drums for 25 years and I have NEVER tuner any drum to any particular note. I find that toms in particular resonate best when the lugs are just past finger tight.
ie. do the lugs up as far as you reasonably can with your fingers. Then give each lug a half to full turn with a key. The adjust each lug so they are in tune with eachother.
Now obviously this makes the lowest 'note' each drum is capable of, but that is where the drum sounds best. The more you tighten the skin, the less the shell can resonate truely. (or so I've found...YMMV)
For this reason I tend to prefer smaller drums.