x
pcrecord 6 May 2020

Hi !

There is a price reduction on Lauten mics and my GAS is very tempted.
It could be my first tube mic. There is a lot of videos online but I'd like to have the opinion of an owner.
Anyone of you has one ? How does it compare to other known mics ?

Thanks !

Tags

Comments

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 09:23

pcrecord, post: 464075, member: 46460 wrote: Hi !

There is a price reduction on Lauten mics and my GAS is very tempted.
It could be my first tube mic. There is a lot of videos online but I'd like to have the opinion of an owner.
Anyone of you has one ? How does it compare to other known mics ?

Thanks !

They look really nice but from an investment POV, I would not invest in Lauten mics. If you don't like it, you will loose half your investment immediately. They are not overly praised and are built in China. Pro Audio Manufacturers that had China building their cheap products are in for a big reality check. It may take a while but I predict sales first, followed by out of business or new lines that are now built in the USA again :).

Being said, I've owned quite a few cheaper and expensive LDC. Entry level LDC tube mics have a glassy mud sound that is just plain irritating. imho

KurtFoster Wed, 05/06/2020 - 10:10

there are few brands of mics that i would considered investment quality. most of them are European and there's a plethora of clones and look a likes on the market. some of them are so good to the point it seems (to me) it would be almost ridiculous to buy a Neumman or AKG new.

i'm intrigued by the Warm line of mics. i like that they are blatantly cloning industry standards. you know what you will be getting when you get one that way. i have yet to see one negative review of them. the only thing that was said was that the 87 & 414 clones sound like the vintage not the modern versions. that' s not a bad thing in mpov. i have a Warm wish list! lol.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 10:10

pcrecord, post: 464077, member: 46460 wrote: Thanks Chris,
Going up in quality, which next Tube mic would you recommand ?
I think I'm well served with my KSM44, microphone-parts.com T12 and T47, but I'm wondering if another vocal mic around 1K CAD could up my game significantly..

Not sure what to recommend for you. As you know, mics are intertwined with the source and preamp so my recommendation would be advising to choose a mic you can sell should you not like it.

I've enjoyed RODE K2, had many of those pass through my studio. I sold them all for not too much a loss $. Knowing how good your reviews are, taking that into part of your considerations, doing reviews, I would choose products that are more mainstream. You can buy RODE mics pretty much anywhere. So you would get good traffic from doing RODE product reviews. But of course there are other brands too but RODE does make a decent LDC for under $1000.

KurtFoster Wed, 05/06/2020 - 12:07

i don't want to whip the horse here but i believe that Warm has it down pretty good. they save money by getting boards and capsules made to their specs in China and then assemble them in the US. they use Cinimag and Marinair transformers and high quality components. build quality looks top notch. i'd love to see you review one.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 12:20

The 251 is without question, one of the best vocal mics. Question is, some are poor and some are lush and some are amazing. The 251 combined with a good preamp and a good comp, OMG.:love:

I contacted Telefunken a few years back and was told they were having trouble sourcing the tube for them so just be warned that you need to get a good tube with whatever mic brand (kit) you choose. Clones can be very plosive and wooly so just know there is a reason why there are big prices tags for the beauties.

Some personal info: I own a Soundelux e250 which is close to the 251 without a variable pattern and filters and love it. Used with most quality pres, it suits my voice very well.
"The e250 is a follow-up to his ELUX 251 and is meant to be truer to the original AKG design that the original Telefunken company marketed. It’s solidly-built and comes with power supply, cable, shockmount, and wooden storage box (like most clones do to). The mic has a triple-layered screen around the capsule to help reduce plosives. There are no switches for pad or filter, nor is there a pattern selector as the mic is a fixed cardioid condenser."

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 12:24

Kurt Foster, post: 464086, member: 7836 wrote: i don't want to whip the horse here but i believe that Warm has it down pretty good. they save money by getting boards and capsules made to their specs in China and then assemble them in the US. they use Cinimag and Marinair transformers and high quality components. build quality looks top notch. i'd love to see you review one.

Same, I too would love to hear a review on them. However, I don't have too much belief Warm is as good as the hype. I once had a Warm pre here and sold it as fast as I got it. Total crap. But I also believe they are getting the process down better. A lot of companies that use off shore assembling etc, took years to educate China. Companies that are able to go to China on a regular bases seem to have better success with quality control.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 12:48

Kurt Foster, post: 464091, member: 7836 wrote: that's the Melcore clone. think Wally Heider / Muscle Shoals sound. looks pretty nice to me.
.

re looks: I thought so too. Its been discontinued for a reason I suppose. It was so bad I never had an interest to advertise them here again. I know Warm has come a long way since then, so I'm told and I hope I am wrong about my negative opinion. I wish people success and good fortune but have little praise for cheap clones that put the great ones out of business dumming down this entire industry etc.

Personally, I think there are good low cost mics and pres out there but I've become spoiled too. I'm also increasingly leary investing in anything that is made to look really nice that is very affordable. Add up all the marketing, packaging, shipping and profit to something, see whats left for the actual build and that pretty much sums up what you are paying for.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 12:56

pcrecord, post: 464093, member: 46460 wrote: I found a used soundelux with a small search 2900CAD.. way more than i could spend..

Indeed. Not trying to up your price... just sharing my opinion and basic knowledge on what I know about those mics and why they cost so much in the first place. The tubes alone are extremely pricey and hard to get.
If you were to do a review on one, I would be interested but I personally wouldn't ever buy one because you simply cannot make them for that price. they aren't a 251 but they still may sound great which is really the most important thing at the end of the day..

KurtFoster Wed, 05/06/2020 - 13:04

audiokid, post: 464092, member: 1 wrote: I know Warm has come a long way since then, so I'm told and I hope I am wrong about my negative opinion. I wish people success and good fortune but have little praise for cheap clones that put the great ones out of business.

you are the first person i have heard say anything negative re; / Warm. there are some very reputable people in Nashville and LA who are really loving the stuff. when i see the build quality and the kind of components used i don't see how they could be that bad. perhaps as you say the MkI was no good or maybe you just got a lemon. i really think you should give them a second look to be fair. i understand what you say about price competition but it's a different world with different expectations. recording has become more an avocation than a vocation with different budgets and the tools needed to post weakly monetized YouTube content only need to impart that "thing" a Neumann or Neve does and not necessarily exactly the same sound. you can take two of any mic or pre side by side and they can sound very different. especially with older stuff. that's why they match pairs of things. a reasonable approximation of a U87 @$600, is a welcome addition imo.

kmetal Wed, 05/06/2020 - 17:50

Mojave audio hand builds their mics in California. Not sure about Peluso prices but they have a long standing good reputation. Beez kneez and cathedral pipes also make a very high quality product.

I know you said 414 was out but theres a company, Austrian Audio i think, that is a group of former AKG employees, who are making a 414 with the original capsule ie the 414eb style. The 414eb is an animal and a true classic sounding mic, not the same as harmon era akg (which i like very much)

To me Warm, while might be good, just doesn't have the rep of botique, its name represents value (and quality), but still has that "mid level" vibe. Fair or not.

The mics i mentioned up top are much more boutique, even if they are clones. They are high end, and while not recognizable by the masses as a Neumann, they truly make a product as good or better.

The best ldc mic ive ever used is an akg c12. Full, robust, sweet... Just an ideal mic to my ears.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 18:08

Kurt Foster, post: 464095, member: 7836 wrote: you are the first person i have heard say anything negative re; / Warm. there are some very reputable people in Nashville and LA who are really loving the stuff. when i see the build quality and the kind of components used i don't see how they could be that bad. perhaps as you say the MkI was no good or maybe you just got a lemon. i really think you should give them a second look to be fair. i understand what you say about price competition but it's a different world with different expectations. recording has become more an avocation than a vocation with different budgets and the tools needed to post weakly monetized YouTube content only need to impart that "thing" a Neumann or Neve does and not necessarily exactly the same sound. you can take two of any mic or pre side by side and they can sound very different. especially with older stuff. that's why they match pairs of things. a reasonable approximation of a U87 @$600, is a welcome addition imo.

Absolutely agree.

Regarding the Warm stuff, the WA12 could have been a lemon, not sure. I think someone said it was as good as other great pre’s for way less $. After that... I have a bone of contention when I hear people say something sounds like something else, when it’s thousands $ less. It’s a pet peeve I guess.

Back to Marco ... My initial thoughts here are to inspire more angles for Marco to think more on (buying, selling reviewing etc) to purchase or to include in his reviews.
If he’s going to go for a 251 of any kind... knowing more about the history of these mics is good to know, which was really what I’m getting here.:)

kmetal Wed, 05/06/2020 - 18:38

Forgot to mention the Neumann tlm 102, not 103, is a really really good sounding mic. Cardiod only, but sounds very nice on vocals, and i would guess on anything. Id describe it as full and articulate.

audiokid, post: 464098, member: 1 wrote:
If he’s going to go for a 251 of any kind... knowing more about the history of these mics is good to know, which was really what I’m getting here.:)

The 251 and c12 are derived from the same design if memory serves me right.

audiokid Wed, 05/06/2020 - 18:43

Mojave is excellent. I have the MA1000 which is similar to a 251. Really beautiful. They have a great selection of mics.

I’ve never had the blessings to experience the AKG C12. :)

Marco, have you ever approached the manufacturers? Your videos are excellent and your personality is very sincere. They often have “Accommodation Pricing” for people that do reviews, etc. You could get a discounted price on something you would review. Just a thought.

pcrecord Thu, 05/07/2020 - 07:02

Yesterday, I listened to most of the Warm audio 251 videos and I wasn't impressed..
So many sounded horrible due to the talent, room or preamps or else.
But it helped me elimitate the warm 251 idea. Also I didn't know that there was a natural bass rolloff with most of the 251.
Mic part diy give 2 options when building it 80hz.. Perfect for vocals but limiting for other instruments..

Ma-1000 is 4K.. seems very nice tho..

I'll check the TLM-102 comes with shockmount stand and cable for 959CAD

audiokid Thu, 05/07/2020 - 08:51

Do check out the RODE K2. When those are used with a good pre, they are surprising really nice. And their price is very reasonable.
To my ears many RODE products are glassy sounding but the K2 is an exception. When it comes to affordable mics posing as a comparison to other 251... RODE has it beat because they are a world class factory able to make most everything themselves, keeping their price well below what other low end competitors sell their stuff for. Most importantly RODE doesn't need to get Asian countries using starving people, child labour and inferior components to do it for them.

Also the Mojave MA200 is another excellent mic you would love. I compared the MA200 to a Newman u87ai and I sold the U87. Mind you the u87 was the new version which is a bit brighter to the original u87. I’ve not used a TLM103 but I’ve heard the MA200 is also the winner between those two.

You could get a used k2 or MA200 in your price range.

How about an AT4047, not a valve but used with a valve pre... might be really sweet too.

Generally speaking, I suspect we get better results combining better LDC FET mics with valve pres apposed to using cheap valve mics with most any pre.
Cheap valve products sound like mud and metal to me.

Fun topic.

audiokid Thu, 05/07/2020 - 09:18

audiokid, post: 464105, member: 1 wrote: Generally speaking, I suspect we get better results combining better LDC FET mics with valve pres apposed to using cheap valve mics with most any pre.
Cheap valve products sound like mud and metal to me.

Someday I would love to see a review on this topic. :)

KurtFoster Thu, 05/07/2020 - 14:11

pcrecord, post: 464102, member: 46460 wrote: Yesterday, I listened to most of the Warm audio 251 videos and I wasn't impressed..
So many sounded horrible due to the talent, room or preamps or else.
But it helped me elimitate the warm 251 idea. Also I didn't know that there was a natural bass rolloff with most of the 251.
Mic part diy give 2 options when building it 80hz.. Perfect for vocals but limiting for other instruments..

Ma-1000 is 4K.. seems very nice tho..

I'll check the TLM-102 comes with shockmount stand and cable for 959CAD

did you watch / listen to this one?

kmetal Thu, 05/07/2020 - 14:45

The m-200 was the mic i had in mind in the price point marco is at, never used one but the recordings i hear with it always sound rich.

I believe the rode k2 was used on a song for Adele's 21 album with all the hits on it. It was one of those cases where they couldn't match the demo performance so they kept it. My buddy had a k2 and swapped the tube and liked it a little better.

I chose a 414 over the tlm 103 when i was demoing the two. The 102 is a different animal than the 103, the 102 is better and cheaper. Perhaps due to the less parts and labour involved in a cardiod only mic, the 102 shines above, even if it wasn't cheaper. Its one of those mics that slipped under the radar and im not sure why. I like it better than the u87ai for vocals. Ive never actually found a voice the 87 was a winner on. I think if i were tracking to tape with it, the upper mid forwardness would be "right" instead of over the top. The original rode nt2 (not nt2a) actually sounds pretty close to an 87ai. I bet with a mod you could match them well enough.

I think an overlooked aspect of the tube mic is the psu. Your not getting the same level of psu on the mid level tube mics. I have no proof of this besides pure economics, but theorize its a important to the mic.

audiokid Sat, 05/09/2020 - 19:09

cyrano, post: 464124, member: 51139 wrote: Where do you guys think AKG and Warm Audio mics come from?

Not sure if I fully understand your question but at one time AKG was Austria. I suspect like many companies, they took advantage in past opportunities with China and their Asian partners. Samsung (South Korea).
Warm Audio, I suspect is America but uses China or cheap labour to build something. I personally have no idea but only suspect, even if it doesn’t say China, it still is. lol.

I think it’s always a safe bet to say China makes something in most everything we buy. (n)

cyrano Sun, 05/10/2020 - 03:32

kmetal, post: 464126, member: 37533 wrote: Harmon owns akg now, they're a mix of overseas and Austria i believe. Austrian Audio is austria all the way, and owned by former akg employees.

No idea about warm.

AKG doesn't exist anymore. It's just a brand, owned by Harman industries, owned by Samsung. Production is Chinese or other Asia OEM. Just like JBL, fi and a wide number of other well-known brands.

Warm, otoh, I don't know really. It's a small operator. But based on the internals of one of their mics, there certainly are some Chinese sources involved. I also wasn't impressed by these internals. Perhaps "hand-made", but very sloppy. I can't even remember seeing something this sloppy in an expensive mic, ever.

If you "mod" a Chinese 100$ mic and sell it for 500$, I won't even frown. But if you sell it for 3000$, I expect much, much better.

There's a reason why a Shure, Senn, Neumann, DPA... cost what they cost. That reason is research. Harman had no research for most of the brands they owned. Now, it's up to Samsung. One never knows, but AKG and other companies' research is gone. Some of it survives in Austrian Audio, fortunately.

kmetal Sun, 05/10/2020 - 08:23

cyrano, post: 464128, member: 51139 wrote: AKG doesn't exist anymore. It's just a brand, owned by Harman industries, owned by Samsung. Production is Chinese or other Asia OEM. Just like JBL, fi and a wide number of other well-known brands.

Not sure why you asked if you knew the answer already...

Do you know what's changed on the production front since the samsung take over? When harmon took over they still did some work in Austria, for instance assembly of the 240 headphones. Mine said "made in Austria" and these were circa 2004.

I'm not an industry insider but ive seen no mention that any of the production methods have changed. Doesn't mean they haven't, but its all speculation until evidence or data provides proof.

Economic signs do indicate some change since the 414xls went from $999usd. around '08, up to 1,100 in 2011, then the mic casing changed, and the 214 and 314 models were introduced. The 414 price then dropped back down to to 899-999.

This said to me, something has been cheapened. I suspected a cheaper casing, possible mods to the internals, and or manufacturing changes.

That said Chinese factories are often state of the art, and production tolerances can be tight as needed.

Focusrite ISA is a perfect example of a grear product manufactured in Asia that keeps a competitive price. The Groove Tubes Vipre was a boutique level unit with over 250 resistors hand soldered to individual switched knobs. The only way to keep sales price under 10k was to have them made overseas.

While i dont agree with child labour or near slave wages, there is no reason to presume anymore that overseas manufacturing is somehow inferior technically, by default. It is a long way from the 1980s era.

I do remember an Asian produced manufacturer of laminate wood flooring having a toxic ingredient like asbestos or formaldehyde in the product, and the American distributor apparently turning the other cheek. There was a huge recall and law suit, around 2012 for this.

Id be weary of an akg c12 at this point, and would question a 414, but the 214 sounded ok to me when i heard it, so i would imagine the 414 is still a good mic at the price point. Id personally shoot for a Mojave at that price range but that's just cuz i own a 414.

One has to take into account the massive bargaining power and manufacturing a company like Samsung has. Many factors can contribute to a drop or plateau in pricing, aside from skimping in quality.

Interesting to me has been the steady pricing of a shure sm57/58, while the sm7 has risen steadily in line with the sennheisser 421, in the last 15 or so years.

KurtFoster Sun, 05/10/2020 - 09:41

i have wondered for years why Rode mics aren't that popular or actually in use in more pro studios? i mean major pro rooms like Blackbird.

i have noticed this for quite some time and coupled with my own very limited experience with them i have always assumed it was because they just don't sound that great.

cyrano, post: 464128, member: 51139 wrote: Warm, otoh, I don't know really. It's a small operator. But based on the internals of one of their mics, there certainly are some Chinese sources involved. I also wasn't impressed by these internals. Perhaps "hand-made", but very sloppy. I can't even remember seeing something this sloppy in an expensive mic, ever.

If you "mod" a Chinese 100$ mic and sell it for 500$, I won't even frown. But if you sell it for 3000$, I expect much, much better.

the videos i've seen of Warm internals don't look sloppy to me but what do i know? comparisons i'v watched seemed to be fair and the demos made by recordists like '">Mitch Gallagher and '">Sylvia Massey sound pretty good.

admittedly, i'm not tech savvy but i see quality transformers, caps and resistors and through hole construction. assemblies and capsules are manufactured in China to WARM specs but they are assembled and tweaked in the U.S. i've tried to post an image of the insides of the WA-12 but for some reason i get an error message. https://warmaudio.c… it doesn't look like junk to me.

WARM mics aren't $3000 but more like $500 for solid state types to $1500 for the top of the line Tube mics .

i don't understand the resistance to what seems to me to be a great line of audio products.

maybe Warm is making a mistake not supplying more products for review at no charge?

 

 

audiokid Sun, 05/10/2020 - 10:05

Im not a big fan of Rode products but I have owned at least 20 of their mics here.

Going back 20 years here... Fletcher trashed everything he didn’t sell, and as you know, had huge influence on what was cool to buy In the USA. Being said, he was right about most everything but he was also quick to destroy those who didn’t play in his world.

Some RODE mics sounds great with really good preamps. Especially the K2 and the Discontinued Classic which was a killer ldc.
I owned a RODE Classic which was around $2000 and that through a Millennia M2b, sounded awesome.

Back to Warm: if a company says that can make a clone that sounds like a 251 for under a grand they are full of it and loose all credibility to me.

kmetal Sun, 05/10/2020 - 10:19

Kurt Foster, post: 464132, member: 7836 wrote: i have wondered for years why Rode mics aren't that popular or actually in use in more pro studios? i mean major pro rooms like Blackbird.

i have noticed this for quite some time and coupled with my own very limited experience with them i have always assumed it was because they just don't sound that great.

the videos i've seen of Warm internals don't look sloppy to me but what do i know? comparisons i'v watched seemed to be fair and the demos made by recordists like '">Mitch Gallagher and '">Sylvia Massey sound pretty good.

i admit i'm not tech savvy but what i do see is quality transformers, caps and resistors and through hole construction. assemblies and capsules are manufactured in China to WARM specs but they are assembled and tweaked in the U.S. last the mics aren't $3000 but more like $500 - $1500. i don't understand the resistance to what seems to me to be a great line of audio products.

maybe Warm is making a mistake not supplying more products for review at no charge?

I can't speak for other studios or engineers, but i find Rode mics to generally have a mid/upper mid peak that i find too much for many things. The nt5s i think are very good at acoustic guitars, the nt1a i find nasally but good on percussion, and part of an array on acoustic guitar. The nt2 lived on ride cymbal for years, but was too peaky on vocals. The nt2 could be managed with eq.

They don't have the level of cheapness in sound of an mxl or similar, and i think the nt2 and nt5's are decent value overall. I just feel like there's better choices in general in their ranges, although the nt5 i think is something id get just for acoustic gtrs and feel good.

I think there's a certain name allure big studios need to maintain, and i think rode mics are good but not great, which isn't acceptable at 100+ per hour. They do find their way onto big recordings since many demos are done in smaller rooms with this type of gear.

That's my theory. Id love to see rode make a true flagship mic.

Ive not seen much on warm mics yet, but plenty of nashville engineers are using their outboard.

I think part of it is snobbery and the other part subtly when it comes to implementing this stuff in large studios.

Plus, i think big studios aren't necessarily buying new mics often. Many have built up the cabinet over decades, and have vintage selections. I mean you don't see much brand new stuff even in the racks either. Its mostly staples or wierd stuff or custom.

I also think that the budget gets eaten by the jones's of the computer and software side. I remember a big studio manager saying in an interview she has to upgrade the protools rigs every 2 years to keep up. Thats an enormous expense.

I hope warm ect put a dent in the market so the high end stuff comes down in price.

I mean 5k for a mic is just egregious, and i don't think represents a typical 30% profit margin. I understand r and d and parts selection and hand labour is expensive, but others are doing similar work for half to a third...

x

User login