???? help

If you plan on close miking all four, then make them stand in a "cross" kind of way facing the middle of it. Then they should hear each other really well and the mics (cardoid) will face their dead ends at the other singers.

Remember that the farther away the miks are - the less bleed, but also greater differences in time/delay of the bleed. You decide what is worse.

Try stereo miking them to, with an A/B pair or maybe a blumlein (if you got eights).

Good luck!

Thanks,

I was kind of thinking of making them face the same direction and put the mic's on cardiod.

if their tight try using a good mic in omni, placing it in the middle with the singers around it, just possition the singers the same distance away from the mic. What style of music though?

If you want to completely eliminate bleed, the only way is to either set the mics up in four different rooms, or record the parts one voice at a time.

Which leads to the next question:

Why do you want to eliminate bleed?

Why do you want to eliminate bleed?

I would like to have a clear signal in the track(one voice per track) when I am doing the mix, without having to use much gating and expansion.

Bleed can be your friend, but if you are determined to eliminate it my two previous options seem like your only choices.

Thanks,

I shall hid your advice. Could you please tell me how bleed can be my best friend. My problem is that the pitch corrector I am using (ANTARES AVP-1) works better with one clear voice than many things in the same signal.

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
My problem is that the pitch corrector I am using (ANTARES AVP-1) works better with one clear voice than many things in the same signal.

Your problem is not mic spill or how to isolate for best use of the Antares, Your problem is the lack of talent and pre-production work of your clients. You would be doing your clients a service by recording them as is and letting them listen to how they really sound so that they can practice and learn to sing correctly in tune before you try to do any serious recording that you'll need to attempt to fix latter.

I have to agree with AudioGaff on this 110%..( :tu: ) if you are recording an "A Cappella" foursome - they better not need pitch correction - if they do - they are gonna sound like hell in a public performance........

Record em just they way they sound and let them listen to themselves......... they need some work.

Rod

Acappella's should not need pitch correction, If one needs pitch correction in an acappella group that meens they cannot harmonize togather properly, which meens they need more practice before they hit your studio.

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
Thanks,

Could you please tell me how bleed can be my best friend.

Well, it's not if you know you will need autotune.

But otherwise it can provide a little bit of mud and glue to make the performance sound more organic and natural and not too sterile. Kind of like having a bunch of room mics.

Same logic for not gating the hell out of all your drum mics. Bleed can be your friend there too.

Your problem is the lack of talent and pre-production work of your clients

I agree with you guys on this. I guess we live in the real world where some people are good singers and others not so much good singers. I cannot make a bad singer sound good, but I can somehow help wherever I can to make things sound slightly better. When people hit the studio they think that they are ready and well rehearsed. After ecording them, I can offer them a suggestion to go improve and come back again if I hear that they need more work. Their coming back depends very much on them. Still I will be reluctant to give them a mix with full of errors even if it is theirs. Since my reputation depends on this, should I give them their money back and delete the take? In that case I will loose. Or should I charge them and keep the take? They will sue me and spoil my reputation.

I think you should explain to them something like this...

Please understand and don't be offended with my cander but in order obtain and pursue a professional sounding recording, it will require more pre-production work on your part. If you would like to do some basic demo or test recordings of what you currently sound like, I can do that for you but it would be a dis-service to you as a client and me as a professional to not make you aware of this before you get your expectations to high and possible regret the recording experience and the money you spent on it. By being better prepared you will save time and money because things will go easier, quicker and flow much better.

Then make a them a demo deal so that they can use those recordings as a reference. Mabe even listen to it back with them and point out what they may not be aware of. Encourage them and let them know that they can come back when they are really ready and you'll both make some real magical recordings.

I think you should explain to them something like this... [..cut..]
*************************************

Excellent response!

Life is too short for us to spend time correcting pitch problems. There is certainly work to be had by recording anyone with a dollar in their pocket, but then you are very close to having a "real job". And audio recording doesn't pay well enough to qualify as a job; we do it because we want to. The lack of money is only bearable due to the great projects we get to work on.

I was shocked the first time I sat in on a Pro Tools session and watched the engineer and producer spend hours cleaning up the timing of individual drum beats. Is this really how we want to spend our days?

Originally posted by AudioGaff:
I think you should explain to them something like this...

:) Gaff, HORST JANKOWSKI said the exact same thing to me in Stuttgart in 1972. I went to his studio to see about the production of my first LP. He emphasized the value of preparation.

--Rick

I think the advice suggested is very good and considerate. The only problem is that the lastdecision will be theirs whether they listen to me or not. If they listen that is aright. In case they don't what do I do?

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
I think the advice suggested is very good and considerate. The only problem is that the last decision will be theirs whether they listen to me or not. If they listen that is aright. In case they don't what do I do?

You can't control if they decide to not come back so why worry about that. If they want to go ahead knowing they suck but want to do it anyway, then record them and take their money. If you feel this is going to tarnish your reputation and/or affect any future business, then tell them your sorry, but you decline their business. Send them to someone else. This is the balance you need to contemplate for each client you decide to work with. Sometimes doing the right thing for you as a recording artist with morals and ethics, is in conflict with you the business person that needs to pay for the bills and put food on the table.

I don't know though, out of tune vocals have soul. Have you gone to a elementry school choir? My son sang in one the other night. A tear dropped from my eye. It's not the tune of the singer that's most important. And I'm sure their parents (the ones paying for it?) will be hearing it afterwards, and it will mean the world to them. Think of how proud they'll be!

It's not the tune of the singer that's most important

Wow, first time to hear this. I think there is a difference between an elementary school choir (I will be recording one tomorrow actually) and a semi-professional group wanting to release their product commercially. One attempt of defining music defines it as "the art of combining sounds in a manner which is agreable to the ears." Tune is very important.

There are a couple things i would like to comment on ..

Originally posted by BUZAIN:
Could you please tell me how bleed can be my best friend?

The best way for you to understand this is to listen to a couple of examples .. “Mean Ol’ World”, by T Bone Walker .. the piano was not directly miced for this recording yet has a wonderful quality. Another example would be anything Phil Spector recorded in the early 60’s .. “Walkin’ in The Rain”, “He’s A Rebel”, “Soul and Inspiration”, “You’ve Lost That Lovin' Feelin’”, and many more. The whole “Wall of Sound” was the culmination of way too many players (10 to 15), stuffed into a way too small studio and then recorded onto one or two tracks of a three track machine through just a few mics ...

Originally posted by hollywood_steve:
I was shocked the first time I sat in on a Pro Tools session and watched the engineer and producer spend hours cleaning up the timing of individual drum beats. Is this really how we want to spend our days?

A big “A-freakin’- MEN!” to that. I have been reading much about not using gates on snare and toms while tracking, because one can simply go in and draw out the wave form after recording. I decided to try this on a recent project, and as I spent an hour, tediously drawing out all the cymbal spill and extraneous hi hat hits across 5 tracks of toms and the snare, I had to think to myself, “This is not fun.” Very boring stuff to do. Not very conducive to a creative flow. I personally prefer to work with musicians who only need the engineer / producer / recordist, to set up the mics and then get the hell out of the way. I don’t dig all the power trip, control freak, after the fact stuff, that is so prevalent these days, like “See what I can do with these guys? They’d be nothing with out me ... :confused:

I'm almost afraid to ask, so please please please don't get mad at me, Kurt!

But I really loved the first half of your answer about the beauty of bleed. But then in the second half (and maybe I'm totally misinterpreting, so please don't get mad...) you said that INSTEAD of using gates while tracking you tried tediously drawing out cymbal spill.

I just want to know why you would want to use gates while tracking. Or draw out cymbal spill for that matter. Isn't that the antithesis of loving bleed?

And if you were going to use gates, why not wait until the mix, so that if you are slightly off in the settings you won't have a ruined drum track from all the ambience pumping in and out? I know I wouldn't dare have the courage to gate drums while tracking, but I will be the first to admit you are far more skillful and experienced than I am.

So maybe it would be fair to say: if you are as good an engineer as Kurt, feel free to gate drums while tracking. But if you are merely a hack like White Swan, don't try this at home!!!

But I still like the part where you just embraced bleed much better!

(don't get mad!)

Originally posted by White Swan:
why you would want to use gates while tracking. Or draw out cymbal spill for that matter. Isn't that the antithesis of loving bleed?

Yes it is. The original question was ....

"Could you please tell me how bleed can be my best friend?"

Now this doesn't mean that I live by this rule and only this rule. If I am doing a jazz trio, I won't gate or draw out spill from tom tracks. But then there wouldn't be any tom tracks because I would most likely just have a mic up for snare, kick and overheads. But on pop productions, if you listen to a lot of it, you will notice that the cymbals aren't that loud but tom hits are. The cymbals have a way of spilling into the toms and washing out the rest of the kit, causing a loss of the definition that is the trademark of a pop drum sound. Now while I most likely won't gate to disk nowdays, choosing instead to draw it out in an editing session, it's still a big PITA.

I like to make a lot of desisions and commit to things while I track. It just saves a lot of second guessing at mix. When I was working in analog, I often gated to tape, choosing to live "on the edge". Sometimes I would have to call for a retake. If the drummer was very inconsistant, I would sometimes wait until mix to gate. On disk, if I do gate, I like to do it going in because this saves having to send it out and back to the DAW and a step of conversions. But I only use Drawmer 202 and 404 gates which are pretty reliable and have these really nice filters in the detector circuts. Still, there is a slight cutting off of the leading transients. I remedy this by pulling these transients out of the overheads. In DAW I don't like the plug in gates. I never can get them to work as accuratly as my hardware Drawmers. One last thing, If I am going to compress somthing to tape or disk, I know is going to need gating, I will gate it first before I compress. I find that this helps the gates trigger more accurately. Trying to gate something that has been squished, is at best difficult.

Thanks, Kurt, for your patience in explaining. I think it helps us less experienced readers to hear you explain that gating on the way in requires a high level of skill level and gear, and that even then, as you say, there is the risk of having to retake because of gating artifacts.

And I agree 100%, that in the signal chain I always gate before I compress. A compressed signal is much more difficult to gate effectively since the dynamic range is by definition diminished.