FWIW,

Some of our projects go out for Mastering - ones with a healthy budget, but the last 2 or 3 on one label have been done in-house: Massive Passive, Vari-Mu, and Focusrite outboard have all contributed to a half dozen or more releases this year. We've received masters back, then we said, "what happened to the bottom?", or "where's the excitement up top?" enough to warrant our projects being done here. (not mentioning any names - yet!)

Jay
PlugHead Productions

Maybe it's me, but mastering an already good or great sounding project is not rocket science. We do 99% of our mastering in house, and each project gets better than the last (providing that we are not polishing a turd). I know what I want in a master from listening to many, many other albums and learning from them. What other options are there? What can a mastering engineer do for my projects specifically? Probably not a lot (I am speaking here of the guys under the $150/hr range...don't get me wrong, the guys with the golden ears and golden tools are to be feared and revered) once you have the experience to know what you want, how to get it, and have lots of objectivity. If you don't know how to get there though, then a mastering engineer will serve you well. Good Luck.

<>

i.e. a mastering engineer? Out of necessity, I sometimes "master" things in house. But wherever possible, I send them out for just the above reasons.
I've spent the past six years being a full time fader jockey, and feel like the sun is just dawning. And yes, like previously stated every project gets better. But the projects we work on are going into a very competitive market, and every ounce of professionalism counts.
I've been sending our larger projects to NYC to master at a "name" facility this past year. We had grown a bit discouraged with local mastering and were feeling the same sort of "we can do this just as well" emotions. And in a lot of instances, yes, we could. Then we started getting projects back from NYC. Yes, there is a huge difference.
As tracking and mixing engineers claiming that talented mastering engineers don't bring anything to the table that we couldn't do without some practice seems a bit shortsighted.
The eq, the compression, yeah, maybe. But think about mixing, how hard you hit gear in the studio for just the right IM distortion so the harmonics stack just so so the vocal hits the comp just so so you can't lose it on an Aura(awful)tone. You know, the Jedi aspects of the job that you can't vocalize other than "watch, and listen" to assistants, that you had to learn through thousands of hours of assisting and watching and then hundreds of mixes to get it through your skull... The window of brilliance that every single piece of equipment is capable of...
Does this mean engineers are incapable of doing both? Absolutely not. Rare and talented exceptions to every rule exist, I'm simply aware I'm not one of them. I track and mix, and then I hand it off to someone who has a level of professionalism I respect, and the ears to match.
My longwinded .02

-rich

I'm with you Jules.
I rather the bands take CD work to an extranal mastering house. Although I will still give them to mixes.
One unmastered.
another mastered with way to many plugs, although I use then all just a little.
Pass filter 28 and under off
Dad Tape
Fairchild, more color than sound
MC2000 just hitting 3db's off at 3:1
Two pultecs one adding low and a bit high
another for some mid. probably now replaced with one Pultec for color and the new "Sony all dancing eq plugin"
DUY Shape for expanding a bit
channelstrip for fine tuning eq (sony will do now)
DUY Max.
POW dither.

Thinking about it I will cut out a few with the Sony. Only had it 2 days pretty cool.

A lot of bands just use my basic mastering version, as it is cheaper.
Sometimes I will slam it a bit some times for jazz/blues stuff. both multi comps will go.

Although I can tell the diff when I get back the properly mastered versions.

Wow prety similar to my chain... (but you have so many, you must go through twice or through 2-buses?? You need to give some of them up!!!!
(heheheheheh)

My (recent) self mastering chain:

Cranesong Hedd on AES insert
Sony "oxford" R3 plug in
Bomb Factory Fairchild
Waves C4 multiband compressor (reckon the McDSP is better?) I want to try Master X badly.
Pow-R dither (Weiss plug in)

:)

I don't about the rest of you guys, but I am now finding that clients are allocating little to almost no budget for good mastering work. I get asked more and more to take a stab at it. For an additional fee of course. I often used the Vari-Mu and the Massive Passive and while I was getting great results, it often was not what the client or their producer was satisfied with. You know, the old it wasn't loud enough, it wasn't slamming you in the face, the VU meters moved to much. I started to rent and use the Finalizer and found that even though it is a powerful tool it still was harsh and not flexable enough for my tastes. I then got my hands on the TC DBmax, which is a upgraded Finalizer for broadcasters and this is what I was looking for. Much better sounding and way more flexable. The added benifit was that it includes all the filter settings for the various broadcast formats so you can get a pretty good clue on how your mix will sound on radio/tv/cable ect...

yeah two buses and a master bus for all this shit, in my master template.
The Sony will hopefully knock it down some.
Still getting a handle on the MC2000 to many options. The presets are not the best to start fiddling with. Tried C4 and masterX before the mcdsp. Did not like the sound of MasterX.
C4 was ok cool interface, just did not do anything for me.
Shape is another multi band thingy it is good too, very colored as well.

I have toooo many plugins now.
Way to many.
I have a mix cube not enough horse power for all the plugins, I am being better not overloading the buses like I used to.

Everyone else find when they use PT they start using a comp and eq on every track, then bus it out to another stereo track. Comp and eq that then out to a master which is comp/eq'd as well.
Trying to be good, trying to keep template down to minimal.

In my analog days I had 4 compressors
Bass. Vox, backing vox, kick was about it
At least I stick to 2 reverbs only most of the time.

"The added benifit was that it includes all the filter settings for the various broadcast formats so you can get a pretty good clue on how your mix will sound on radio/tv/cable etc"

DB Max eh... what do you get up to inside? 5 band compresion? any eq-ing? and that final output limiter? Dither? Do you set it to be .3 max output or some such?

WHAT DO YOU GUYS CHOSE AS A FINAL OUT PUT LEVEL? (if self mastering) I use 0.3 db

I want an Optimod, or something that realy simulates radio broadcast!!

FM radio simulator box (or DAW plug in!!!)

There was a 'speaker plug in' that was to be able to emulate NS10's say on Genelecs and vice versa.... can you belive it! But I've heard little about it recently...

Originally posted by Julian Standen:
I have worked out a system of keeping mastered and un-masterd copies of my mixes.

What do you guys do..?

strange :confused:
i read here a lot about highclass-mics, -preamps, different sound of different converters, but mastering is something to do just with a few middle-class-plugins... :confused:

Jules, with the DBmax you can select how many bands you will use. (1-5) Compressor has adjustable slopes, Total of 4 insert blocks that you can insert into the chain. Inserts include, a real good AGC, Parametric eq, dynamic eq, 90deg mono, normalizer, brick wall limiter, soft clipper, production limiter or transmission limiter w/ selectable emphasis type, de-esser, spectral stereo enhancer, MS encode/decode, adjustable cal osc, user defined 0dbFS, surround and phase meters and .1db level adjustments. TPDF Dither on/of with 8-22 bit selectable, auto fade by time, knob or pedal.

I have too have been using as my max settings.

Here's my mastering chain. I have lately beaten the results of a national master house with it.

PSX100-SE D/A
GML 8200 eq
Tubetech SMC2B 3 band valve compressor
Manley Massive Passive eq
Apogee PSX100-SE A/D
Waves L2 box
PSX100SE for UV22HR down to 16bits
to
PT, Masterlink and DAT.

Then again, there are no true mastering gurus here in France like back home in the States.
For mastering, Metropolis in London is currently in favor with quite a few French majors.

Jon

I've heard Bill Padley mention the Focusrite
Mixmaster, -expander/gate, 3 band manual compressor, EQ, stereo width, limiter, phase correlation meter and optional 24 bit 96 kHz converters. He said that it, surprisingly, rocks. And that it made his mix sound like a record!
I'm intrigued because he is such a radio savvy
producer. Has anyone else tried it?

Irene

"strange I read here a lot about highclass-mics, -preamps, different sound of different converters, but mastering is something to do just with a few middle-class-plugins..." - dan suter

Well hang on Dan! See Jon Attacks mastering chain above! its's got some high class analog gear as well as some great digital gear in it. This is about self mastering, I dont think any of us here would turn down the chance for a mastering legend to master our stuff - budget permitting....!

Irene I dont know that Focusrite unit, anyone else? Bill IS a radio guru you are correct in that!

:)

BTW Jules, as you've got a toe in the Sony camp, is there any prospect of them coming up with a dedicated mastering TDM plug-in?

If I need to master for a budget job or demo work:

AD8000SE A/D
Sometimes into DW Fearn VT-2 (with line pad)
Massive Passive
Tube Tech CLA2B
AD8000SE D/A

L2
UV22 plugin

I generally avoid plugins on the master bus other then the L2 and UV22 (haven't spent much time yet to find which Dither is best for me -> UV22 in the AD8000 or plugin UV22, or POW-R, L2)..

I have the Sony plugs, love them for channels, but haven't spent any time with them on the master bus (cuz I love the Massive Passive and a tiny bit of CLA2B on the bus)... I should spend some time to see what the Sony's can do the bus....

Originally posted by Jon Atack:

Then again, there are no true mastering gurus here in France like back home in the States
Jon

what's about translab in paris? i have some clients who's talking about alex goffer like a masteringod.

btw: really nice masteringchannel :)

Originally posted by Renie:
I've heard Bill Padley mention the Focusrite
Mixmaster, -expander/gate, 3 band manual compressor, EQ, stereo width, limiter, phase correlation meter and optional 24 bit 96 kHz converters. He said that it, surprisingly, rocks. And that it made his mix sound like a record!
I'm intrigued because he is such a radio savvy
producer. Has anyone else tried it?

Irene

i tried it. sorry, i think its a piece of shit :eek:
i don't find a way to get something out of this piece who's better than what i send into it.

Re Sony "any prospect of them coming up with a dedicated mastering TDM plug-in?"

If you go to the Sony site (above somewhere) and download the manual you will read that one of the 4 offered EQ options IS a mastering specific EQ.

On that tip, I just recedved the GML option as a late late late beta tester, I am loading it up tomorrow, you know where I will report first! Stay tuned, I am promised the Compressor as beta in a matter of weeks.. PT needed something like this BADLY!

:)

Originally posted by Julian Standen:
"strange I read here a lot about highclass-mics, -preamps, different sound of different converters, but mastering is something to do just with a few middle-class-plugins..." - dan suter

:)

i think, the most important thing for mastering is not the gear, but
- 2 fresh ears who don't know about the storys happen while recording & mixing
- a other monitoring / room-situation. each room have acoustical problems, a lot of time a secound lsistening situation helps to find problems in a mix
- a masteringengineer listen & work with a lot of differnt stuff all the time, so he catch the problems of a production much faster, 'cause he can compare with a lot other productions & know how the sound before & after mastering.

i don't like to master productions, it also record and/or mix, but for comercials i do it also.

When I master things in house it's usually a low budget demo or album with no budget for mastering. I prefer to send things out and I have a guy who charges me around $400-450 for a typical project and has great gear and good to great ears. My chain here is:

Summit DCL-200 or Demeter VTCL-2a
Daking 52270's
TC M2000 in bypass for conversion
Limiting in the computer with choice ofplug-ins

And I shoot for an RMS of -12 or -13 unless pushed further. I also set the ceiling at -.02 dBfs.

So many people choose a mastering studio in the same way a band who knows nothing just uses the studio closest to their house. You wonder why it comes back sounding worce. Think about in your area how many people are doing bad recording work. Theres just as many doing bad mastering. As well Think about how your clients are with you. You like to be choosen cause you do good work and you know what your doing. You CAN find the same thing in a mastering house. There are plenty of guys out there but they may not be in your own backyard. Alan Douches @ West West Side Music(I use him his contact is WWSM@aol.com), Roger Siebel @SAE and John Golden all do amasing jobs for about 100$ for every 10 minutes of music. As well many engineers go into mastering like a client not showing up to a mix. You send a note with your master saying you would like it to be "loud,punchy,fat" whatever and then when it doesnt come back the way you imagined it and someone else puts their insight into it you flip out. Call the mastering engineer back and ask whats going on and have a relationship with him. What you are paying him for as well is his opinion and a perspective other then yours. Find someone who has a good perspective and who has done over 1,000 records(this narrows out most of the bad ones). People flip out when it comes back with less bottom but maybe what hes telling you is he thinks you put too much bottom if you dont trust him tell him you like that bottom and not to touch it. If he still does he sucks and you should bail. But none of those people I mentioned above would dot hat cause they are good Mastering Engineers. Many also complain about being there. If you want to be there for the session most of what you needed for is the sequence and you can easily just do a CD version in a daw through a shitty soundcasrd and do the spacings youd like and then your mastering engineer will replicate those with your first genration master and just use that CD as a reference. Work to build your sound.

Originally posted by monty teebaum:

btw: really nice masteringchannel :)

The stuff that I've heard coming out of Translab tends to have a honky low-mid bump and a definite loss of soundstage width and depth. Maybe it's the Vari-Mu they put on everything that muddies up the low-mids, maybe it's the Genelec 1029s they use as mastering monitors, or maybe it's the TC Finalizer I've seen the various folks there throw on everything.

Jon

Originally posted by Jon Atack:

Jon
small genelecs for mastering

:confused:

In our relatively modest studio I've "mastered"
all of the projects done here...

None of my clients (including me) can/will budget
for pro mastering... :(

I use an MX-2424/DA7 set-up, and I always do a
2-bus back to the MX with FX/Verb/Etc., but no (mastering)EQ/Comp...

Then I run that 2-bus through my "Mastering Chain":
(AES out from DA7 to)
Finalizer>
(Analog loop out of Fin. to)
FATSO>
Avalon 747>
(back in thru the Analog loop to)
Finalizer>
(s/pdif out to)
Masterlink

I don't often use the EQ,Comp,DRG in the Finalizer,
now that I loop the Analog boxes;
mainly I use it for the D/A-A/D,
to monitor and adjust levels & phase,
to adjust Stereo Width, and as a Limiter...

Oh, and to dither correctly to the Masterlink...

BTW, I record everything at 24/44.1K to the MX-2424...

By using the FATSO & 747 in tandem, I can be more
subtle with Compression, etc.; using the indvidual
strengths of each box per given task and thereby
minimizing/eliminating any unwanted sonic artifacts...

It's a very flexible "back-end"...

It's really interesting seeing all these set ups!

It seems we go to great lenghts to do right by our clients.

:)

Hi all,
I always master myself if I control the whole process from recording to mixing & don't have to match tune that
are of too different. When the tunes are from different months , studios & formats, I will book a mastering session.
With control of all the elements e.g. Acoustics, Microphone choice & placement ,EQ, compression & Limiting,
I have found booking a mastering session will result in disappointment 80% of the time.
The professionally mastered tracks will be bass heavy ,top heavy & be harsher in the high mids than the original
mix. So I save my money & do it myself.
I come out of the ProTools on 4 x Stereo buses. with a Waves C4 multi band on each bus.
1) Vocals or head,
2) Revs & special FX (percussion, samples, synths & solos)
3) Rhythm beds
4) Drums & bass
The metering on my console is good & soloing the groups, I can view the ballistics of each of them to see how it
relates to the others, I want it to sound like none of the dynamics are lost ,but the RMS. excursions are kept really
tight. The peak limiting stuff I have already done on the individual channel Plug ins within ProTools, It's a balancing
act between the individual plug ins & the C4 on there master to achieve the perceived dynamic impact required.
So what I have now is mostly a RMS. range balance thing in the analog mixer. When I look at the meters the
movement is within small ranges with a lot of constant energy. Mostly the excursion are slow (VU) & they range
from -5 VU to 0 on peaks, giving plenty of headroom on peak stuff .
I run the analog mixer into a Manley MU limiter & maximize & convert in an waves L2.
From the L2 I run into a Dat digitaly then bounce back into the G4 to burn to disc.
You may think I have too many comp & limiters on everything but they are only set to keep stuff under control
within a mixing stage so that there are no excursions within the digital realm . I am from a jazz & classical
background so dynamic range is my most important criteria. The squashing of dynamic expression is the thing that
most real musicians complain about the most. The tone & quality of the sounds should be the obvious reproduction
of the original sound source. If your working with real musicians it is a lot easier. The particular choices they make
are usually the right ones in the context of the tunes their working on so a lot of time is saved. Unskilled musicians
will chase their own tail & never resolve anything .Then when they realize they can do no better they will shut up &
leave there offering as it is, only to become really vocal & philosophic in the final mix when it is too late.
Fortunately I have the luxury of working only with friends & can pick & choose my work.
Regards Michael

P.S. Julian I did try to email you when I was in london but got no response, anyway regards michael

Jon Atack said:
Then again, there are no true mastering gurus here in France like back home in the States.
For mastering, Metropolis in London is currently in favor with quite a few French majors

Given the budget I would use Tony Cousins at Metropolis every time - he always makes the difference.My experiences with most of the other British mastering engineers have been variable.
I had an alarming experience at a Very Famous London Studio where they seem to do cheap quick mastering on the strength of the name as a side line. I had previously brutalised the mix with a mastering plug-in just to give everyone something loud to listen to. The guy took the unadulterated version, spent thirty seconds EQing it, tickled a compressor, looked at me and said 'What do you think?'.I suggested we listened to the brutalised version. When we did everyone smiled - so the cut was that version, with a hint of his nice low end.This just bears out a theory of mine that a guy who's committed to getting the most out of a project is at least as important as the facility.

I'm in a small town in the Midwest. All of my clients work day jobs and just can't go to/afford Chicago for proper mastering. I've set up a home "project mastering" room. This way my projects can get a final stage and hopefully go to the next level. I've got a G4/the Waves gold bundle and Waveburner. I think I need to upgrade my monitors (Event 20/20P) It is a different room, which I thinks does make a difference. The Waves Gold bundle offers a lot of options, different EQs and Compressors, and other effects for certain things.

My general rules are starting like a doctor "First do No Harm!" I then try to bring out things that may have been lost or buried. I try to soften things that stick out funny. I add some color if needed. And then make it bigger.

I'm proud of what I achieve. Things I do sound similar on different systems. A few things that have made local radio have translated well and my clients have been happy. When the budget allows things will go to a dedicated mastering house, for now I do what I can. :D

I'm suprised I haven't seen MasterX5 mentioned. I love using this on my rough mixes after a tracking session. I've gotten several phone calls like "we are in the mix session, and your rough seems to have excitment pumped into it", etc... The dither on it sucks in my opion, so I usually work a chain (only on rough mixing, I leave my final mixes to my mastering engineer @ Oasis):
Fairchild
Filterbank E6
Master X5 (with 10ms lookahead with no dither)
POWr

After putting all the plugins up I thought fuck I am using to much.
So I went back to
DUY TAPE
Fairchild
Sony EQ
DUY Max
powr dither

I found with the new Sony EQ I do not need the multi band stuff to fix the bottom end as much.
I also found I have not used soundreplacer over the weekend to give the kick that sub I could not get from other EQ's.

Sorry should be under the Sony stuff.
Jules whats the GML eq like. The Sony is still burning a hole in my credit card so I will leave it a bit.

I tried masterx and found it to be brittle. Duy shape and max can have that sound to. and also L1.
I do not know super hyped top end.
MC2000 can be a beast to get good sounds out of or great another day. C4 did nothing for me

I measure my 30 years of expertise in this area of discussion, just prior to my 1st recording studio design in 1972. My 1st (real) studio (over the shoulder) experience was with Fred Catero while he was Traking ABRAXAS for Santana. He was brought in by the late Bill Graham to do this project, after he completed the people album For Barbra Striesand.

I have a Vari Mu compressor becuase it looks good in my rack. A lot of what I have read here today I have to agree with. and I do not like what the Vari mu does to the low end. I have gone back to an upgraded 1960 Drawmer. I was intriged by the insertion of and purchased the 1961 tube EQ. A truly amazing piece.
I will tell all here but I will tell you that, I do not use anyplug-insto get this truly amazing sound, that I am very happy with.
I only use my (Mac) computer for editing and maybe to take out some hidden frequency. What I do is a coloration of the sound, that compliments the personality of the Music. My tube chain is extensive. I stay in the analog domain, right up till the end. Anyone who believes that they can get this sound out of their computer, needs to find another church to go to.

I have hundreds of clients that love me, and I also offer the best prices on highest quaity CD manufacturing to my client base in the nation. I go the extra mile for my clients. Because, That is what I do.

Ayana
Beyond Mastering
by
AUDIOTECH
Living with your heart
makes for a better Music.

I apologise Michael Earth Media, I think I was in a hectic time when you were in town...

First try of GML Sony today - V GOOD, used it on a quickie mastering session..Didn't do a comparison with the other EQ's in the Sony range,it seemed to Zoom right in when required accoss the range and had that AHHHHH! type of top end..more on it later..

Sony will go to TC Powercore for Mac, Powercore will soon work on PC... ALL GOOD!

Yo Jules,

I think your approach of keeping your master mix on file & then doing your own mastering is a good course. Odds are one of the black art professional mastering engineers is going to be able to add that certain something. Also they should know how to maximise your material for each format. A lot easier in these digital daze but cassettes are still selling, allegedly!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gerald Cook:
[QB] I stay in the analog domain, right up till the end. Anyone who believes that they can get this sound out of their computer, needs to find another church to go to."

I don't think I can get that sound with my computer. I think I can offer an affordable option and take projects to the next level.

I take your point about the analog gear, but it is possible to compromise.
Point taken bu there is a compromise.

I am a pt user and must also confess to a spate of the evil finalizer. I just found that anything you could really notice was awful, and anything that wasnt awful, you couldnt really notice.

I decided to go for some analog gear to master with, but I cant afford both compression and eq at the moment, as the recently acquired pro control has forced me to cancel all the misus's holidays for the next six years! (I get to go but she has to keep an eye on the studio for me)

After a lot of borrowing gear I've settled on either a chiswick reach compressor or a C2. They're so different and I want both...but which first? I've been using the sony oxford eq and all is well. It'd be great to have analog eq also but at the end of the day, these things are for my clients and I dont think they'll notice.

Jack

Another advantage to doing an final verison & a mastered version is: The mastering engineer will know that he/she better do better than you. I'm sure all mastering engineers work on each project as if it were his/her last ( ;) ) but it's nice to know that they are giving there all, esspecially when the porject gets mastered at an unfamilar mastering house)
Another example is when I get hired to do a mix & the rough mix already sounds great. I wanna make sure MY version sounds better.

After I done with the mix which I have made as carefully I possibly can and get the sound I want, I don´t want to change that. If I would wanted a change I should have done a mix that sounded as I wanted instead. So I doesn´t alter the sound after I´ve made the mix.

John

I never have enjoyed my analog tweakings of mixes outside of PT..

Sony EQ
Sony Comp (cant wait!)
Waves L2

That should do ya!

:)

I have started using Nuendo in 32bit mode for mastering. I use the built in multiband compressor and some otherplug-ins Haven't had thre need for any of the specialised stuff so far.

Mark

hello all.
This is my first post in this very cool enclave. I can usually be found in the DUC or musicplayer but I am glad to have found this forum.

I have a mastering system (as in flow) that might interest someone.

First I pull up all the mixes in a big PT session.
I will also import several "big time" tracks that the client or myself would like to A/B to.

My usual chain is
C4 (I put it first so that it does not mess with the eq that I want on the track)
Waves Ren eq or q10 (maybe sony when I get some room on a credit card!)
L2

I will put this chain on as many mixes as I can (mix3).
After a track is mastered I import it into the session.
This lets me aim for consistancy by fast jumping between tracks.

By the time I am done I can flip between all mastered tracks, the unmastered tracks and the big time tracks and smile.

As for the do it yourself spirit of this thread I say YES YES YES>
I was fortunate to have micheal bishop of telarc master my first 2 solo records and the misfortune of have other guys (known) do my third and fourth.

I will never let anyone master any of my stuff until I can afford Mssrs Grundman, Ludwig etc.

ed