I dunno.. geuss I am just too dumb or a mashochist or something..

Each mix is HAND CRAFTED!

:) [/QB]

Actually re-reading what you said, I take it all back. There's no effective way to set up a template for a mix. My templates are all for tracking.

-dg

A digital guru has tipped me off today that to get the best results in PT:

1) Stay away from Aux sub groups as MUCH as possible!

2) Use the "dithered mixer " a custom
download available on the Digi site... (I already use this and more recently the DAG mixer)

I aim to follow his advice while I sit on the upgrade fence and enjoy the parade!

:)

Actually re-reading what you said, I take it all back. There's no effective way to set up a template for a mix. My templates are all for tracking.

I've actually been toying with this idea myself...

I'm thinking of setting up a mix template for a ten song project. It's a bit convoluted, but doable..

The two challenges are:
1 the retention of all the edits and
2 varying instrumentation/ track counts

Issue 1 can be solved by selecting all sections in all tracks, consolidating regions, and renaming something appropriate Final Kik (for example).

Issue 2 can be dealt with only if the songs are reasonably consistent (drums 1-16, gtrs 17-32, etc.)

Pick one of the songs and build a mix. Once you're there with that one, save as "master mix". Do the "get info" on "master mix" template and check 'stationary pad' to make it a template, and save.

You could then just open up the mix template, import audio into audio bin, and drag to appropriate channels.

Would be cooler to use the import audio to track function under the File menu, but unfortunately this creates a whole new channel thus negating your presets.

While this is far from perfect, it could save a lot of time when doing a project of this magnitude. Beats starting over with each new song!

Sincerely,

"Beats starting over with each new song! "

But DOES it?

:) refutes this, you lose:

Tempo / Cue marker info / BPM grid

what a time to have to 'redo' all that crap!

Er.. hang on where IS the M8?

:mad:

WOW... This thread just triggered something buried deep down. I'm going to have to rethink now. I'm not even sure I should post this;

[QUOTEBummer is unless Angelo or some other genius refutes this, you lose:

Tempo / Cue marker info / BPM grid

Well, yeah...

But what I'm describing is a mix template for a project. My particular project is a 10 song, 5pc rock (AC/DC, GnR type) thing...
All editing is done, so the points you mention are somewhat mute. There are caveats and this is of limited use depending on each individual project.
And I would much prefer to be able to just 'import mix setup from session' but I can't find that option in my manual.

My normal modus operandi is to tweak the hell out of the first tune and then send the guys out for dinner.

Now the fun begins; Save all the plugs with appropriate names for recalling on the next song, then get out pen & paper and write down all the various plugs/orders/busing/aux sends & values/ inserts/ fx channels/routings returns/assigns, etc.,
Then set about opening up the next tune, inserting the plugs, recalling the presets I just saved, setting up the buses, assigning the sends,... You get the picture. You know, doing all the basic shit that takes 30-60 min. to do (just to get close to where you were on the last tune, before you can even hit Play and hear tune 2). And you must repeat this exercise for each successive song...
I'm somewhat O/C (according to my wife), so I'm actually pretty good at doing this as quickly and with as much accuracy as possible, but even at that it takes considerable amounts of time to do, and totally obliterates the creative aspect of mixing. And I feel a little funny about charging for it...

[NOTE: BTW, In case it's not blatantly obvious, I *HATE* this shit... Totally kills the flow to have to do it. My biggest dislike of working in the box.]

The mix template will (hopefully) minimize this excruciating BS.

It's not perfect, it won't work for every situation, but for particular situation, it should enable us to roll from one song to the next, quickly, with the same setup already in place... (Kind of like the old days with the board and tape deck thing, where you just roll up to the next song and throw up the faders, w/o having to build a friggin' virtual mixer from scratch...).

Hopefully it will save several hours of tedium in this scenario, and stop me from secretly longing to ditch the Pro Control and put console in...

I'd love to hear from anyone with creative ways to avoid doing this stuff (smart ass comments excepted). On second thought, smart asses are welcome to respond!

Sincerely,

This won't be helpful, but this topic is so familiar...Jules and I have been going back and forth on this for years now. Of course, we don't necessarily agree (although deep down, I think we do)...

Mixing on a good analog board:

+ Sound quality, ergonomics, generally faster mixing (much easier to implement mults, no DSP delay calculations, etc.), new mix can start with sound &setup of previous one, 'live performance' aspect, 'happy accidents' aspect, less need to stare into a screen all day, easier to mix standing up or dancing, you get to physically move around the board and studio a lot.

- No instant total recall, recall is long, difficult and expensive, higher studio cost, and you are not always in the 'sweet spot'.

Mixing in PT:

+ Instant total recall, relatively lower studio cost, fast and inexpensive to recall and tweak a mix, user always in the sweet spot, generally very high in practicality and low on cost.

- Sound quality, ergonomics, fewer happy accidents, need to start each mix from scratch, more time usually needed to get the mix done (before tweaking & remixing), much left-brain work (need to calculate delay offsets for mults and plugins, etc), hard on eyes and body.

Some of you can punch holes in those general ideas, and that's fine, but I find them to be generally true.

OK, back to the regular programming!

Jon
:w:

I agree. For me the kick-as set-up is a DAW, just fot playback. And a console. Whether it's digital or not.

A track import were you could save your mixer plugin/aux setup.
Then load it up and have an audio track transfer where you could go kick audio from old session to kick etc. If you have extras then import them to new tracks with the same name. Just a simple this now goes to this type of thing would be great.

What I have been doing with band projects is tracking all the songs in the same session.
Then get a mix of the first song flat so the eqs/comps/fx etc are cool. When the band is ready to tweak, use this as a template and do a save as for each song. Every song will be a little diferent but at least you will start from the same point. Bad points are it is hard if you get up to song 5 and they want to change the drum sound although keep the automation. Then you have to do the plugin save/copy stuff. Also you might be working on a song that starts at 89 minutes, which is a bit wierd.

I feel it is time for me to bite the bullet and get into external summing

Either Dangerous 2-Bus http://www.dangerousmusic.com/2-bus.htm#AAintro

or

Rupert Neve "Pure Path" line amps - ganged to form 4 or 8 stereo pairs summed to one.. (the summing bus from a 9098i)

I got some good gear and recorded audio, time to hear it nicely!

If I go this route, no upgrade nessesary at this time.

Apogee AD8000SE (there is a new free analog upgrade to be had BTW)
Sony Oxford plug ins (TDM Comp on the way)
Little if no internal busing (cept for FX sends)
try to keep to 32 tracks to avoid the "over 32 truncation to a new mixer chip" deal)
Out of analog summing rig into -
Cranesong Hedd 96k (perhaps adding a touch of hardware comp & EQ
Into Masterlink at 24 bit (96k or 44.1)

Thank you - & good night Irene

This keeps:

All my gear (including Pro Control)
Total session recall
My audio summed nicely
More of Ruperts gear, - the 9098i summing bus.
Me happy

:)

Not a jedi, but looking for analog mixdown from my DAW. I thought the Manley 16x2 was minimalist until I saw the Dangerous 2-bus. No pan pots, even? any way to link more than one?
Wish they'd at least put some pan pots on it...
Ted

Yes the old jedi rust bucket looks to have had a reprive! A little R&R 'bad back cure' in Tokyo may also be in order with all the $$ saved.. :)

Checked out the Dangerous 2-Bus on the noisey Namm floor and could hear a difference. They were playing several tracks of drums and had a "Dangerous Monitor Box" to monitor between the 2-bus and the PT stereo out. The drums got bigger through the 2-bus. The 2-bus still sounded better even when I lowered the output level to a level lower than the PT stereo out. As there is a switch to make the channels mono, kick and snare were direct out to mono channels while the other tracks were stereo stems. There was also a 6db boost switch per stereo channel which was required to be engaged to match levels to the PT stereo out without boosting the Dangerous master volume. All in all not the greatest demo, but enough to see there was an improvement in quality. At a list of $2499.00, I think it might be a bit over priced.

Jules, I haven't been able to find any info on the Amek/Neve pure path summing box. What's it actually called and how much is the cost?

Also, what do we all start doing when we need to deliver surround mixes?

Thanks,

Kenny Meriedeth
Melted Media Music

Hi!

:)

It's called the Amek / Neve Pure Path "line driver in a box"

And can do MANY things, there isn't a URL direct to it, find it under Rackmounted gear / pure path / line driver in a box

Perhaps the worst web site ever for info :)

Here, I found this:

Amek Pure Path "Driver In A Box"

The Pure Path® 'Driver in a Box' (DIB) comprises eight transformer coupled line drivers and eight further transformer coupled line receivers, which can be configured for use in a vast number of applications. The 'Driver in a Box' (DIB) incorporates eight transformer-coupled line drivers and eight further transformer coupled line receivers which can be configured for use in a vast number of applications. Each line driver features a rotary trim control, switches for mute, phase reverse and 'Silk', and a high resolution LED output meter. 'Silk' is a unique function that introduces a circuit emulating Mr. Neve's classic design characteristics. Mr. Neve observes, "When included in a digital sound path or added to the output of other equipment of questionable performance, the DIB has the astonishing effect of making the resulting sound much more musical." The versatility of the 'Driver in a Box' makes it suited to a variety of applications in sound reinforcement, broadcast and recording. Traditional audio engineering tasks like matching equipment to long lines and avoiding noise and loss of audio quality, for example, are only the beginning. DIB ability is such that it can be used to enhance the audio output of a Mixer or DAW. Alternatively the DIB's input circuits may be configured to serve as very low noise balanced bus mixing inputs, allowing users to create their own Pure Path‘ mixing system with the addition of several 'Channel in a Box' units.

Rear panel connectors are also provided, allowing external faders to be used.

---------------------------------------------

In other words it they can be inked up to form 2-bus (mix bus) summing systems.

1 x unit can = 3 x stereo pairs & 1 x 2-bus (mix bus)
2 x units (my plan) = 7 stereo pairs & 1 x 2-bus (mix bus)

You get insert points & volume 'trim' (not fully off) mutes and can even attach a master fader..

It's a sort of 'do it yourself' kit for summing, parts suplied by a Ruper Neve (Who is he I wonder? :)

5.1 would be possible, just more brain work, and patchbay planning..

:)

Re surround I found this too:

The Stem Compressor, designed to meet the demands of current multichannel surround production, offers eight channels of digitally controlled analog compression and limiting. Channels not used for the main program may be independently used for other material. For example, it will comfortably accommodate a 7.1 mix or, alternatively, a 5.1 mix plus a separate stereo mix, or two simultaneous LCRS mixes. The front panel provides rotary encoders for threshold, ratio, attack, release and make-up gain. The gain encoder also serves as the parameter adjustment control when in edit mode. An internal crosspoint matrix facilitates channel linking for any program format and side-chain insert access. Eight bargraph meters are included, globally switchable to indicate input or output level, gain reduction or side-chain level. Settings are user-definable and may be stored in memory. A small 32-pixel LCD display and dedicated editing buttons allow users to name, store and access parameter settings. The Stem Compressor may also be used in conjunction with Amek's Supertrue automation system for comprehensive control of the device from the mixing console.

now THAT sounds spendy!!!!

:)

Spendy yes - but why stop now? ;)

Jules thanks for the pure path info. Any price idea?

I know your setup is conceptually in the direction mine is with the Apogees and Procontrol, etc. so I can totaly imagine the burst the bubble feelings of this wonderful NAMM weekend. It's a sad commentary that we're now seeking out line mixers to make the tens of thousands of dollars (pounds) spent, have true value sound wise. I don't know about you, but I would have spent just about anything they asked for had Digi come up with an upgrade that really addressed the mix problems that we've all been talking about. Who knows, maybe when someone actually hears the HD we'll all be blown away and decide it's the answer to all our dreams. In the meantime, maybe we can send out for some food for all of us sittin' on the fence.
Thanks,

Kenny Meriedeth
Melted Media Music

Interesting thread. For what its worth:

Doesn't anyone use the TimeAdjuster Plug-In?

I did my first work as an engineer in the '60's, so I've "grown" from 4 to 8 to 16 to 24 to multiple 24 track machines, and have worked virtually all my life on large analog consoles, predominantly Neve, as well as some time on large digital consoles, like Capricorns.
Now I'm working 100% in Pro Tools. BY CHOICE. I based the decision to swap on one criteria only, something I had told myself years before:
"I will change to pure digital the moment digital beats analog sound quality" For me this moment came when I worked on a system with a superb clock and good converters.

(note: If you have a good clock and good converters, but still feel your tracks / mixes need "warming up", it is likely because some converters AND clocks cause midrangy peaks and distortion, as do some so called soft limit functions)

Now I do have to, sometimes, go to other places to record, and inevitably I end up working on a Neve (ok), an SSL (dread), or if I'm lucky, an AMEK9098 (analog heaven). One thing happens when I have to do such a thing - I ineviteably get very frustrated from thinking "I could do this in minutes with my Pro Tools rig"
Does mixing in Pro Tools take longer? In my opinion, no. There are many more possibilities and option available over and above doing a project in analog. The more options you explore, the longer your project takes.
Restrict yourself to just those options available in the analog domain, and you'd fly through a mix.
The only, absolutely the only, thing I miss? Long throw Penny $ Giles faders. I miss them BADLY. But, as they have developped an outstanding digital version now, I think soon we'll see some controllers come on the market with that as well, in which case, I'll be happy.
:)

Getting back to the mix template idea in ProTools, the way I often work is to record a whole tracking session onto one ProTools session file, so Song #1 starts at 00:00, song two at 5:30, song 3 at 9:45, etc. When it comes time to mix, I save the session as "Song 1 mix" and mix the song - setting up whatever outboard processing and fx andplug-insnecessary to finish the song. But the other songs are still on the session file. When done with Song 1 (although obviously you don't have to mix in chronological order) I save the now completed "Song 1 mix" file as "Song 2 mix". Now all the basic drum sounds, vocal processing, panning, fx, etc. from song one are already in place for song two. Naturally, one has the option of completely changing everything, but if you are looking for continuity, at least you won't have to save the plug-in settings one by one and then install them one by one onto a new session.

As one proceeds through the project, sometimes it is obvious that certain songs have related sonic concepts from a mix perspective. You always have the option of starting any given mix from any of the previously mixed songs that it might closely resemble, as every saved song mix still has the audio files of all the other songs on the session still attatched!

The only real disadvantage is if you want to reinstall just one song from your back-up media, you will have to load the large and bulky folder of audio files from the whole session. So at a certain point in the process, one may want to divide the audio folder into seperate folders for each song.

Jules, regarding your comment:

>>>Apogee AD8000SE (there is a new free analog upgrade to be had BTW)<<<

Any info on this?

Jules is talking about the new MK2 board upgrade. AD8000 units are brought up to the SE level, and SE units to a level beyond.

Ask the dealer you purchased your AD8000s from about it. If he doesn't know, email Roger Robindore or Richard Elen or customer service at Apogee.

Jon

"the way I often work is to record a whole tracking session onto one ProTools session file, so Song #1 starts at 00:00, song two at 5:30, song 3 at 9:45, etc."

Wow! I suppose 'record safe' and 'locked' channels must be a regular thing... What about edits? You could have HUGE files!!! The back to zero button cant get used much! I would look forward to more info on how you go about your sessions... :)

"It's a sad commentary that we're now seeking out line mixers to make the tens of thousands of dollars (pounds) spent, have true value sound wise."

Really? Sad? I disagree...
I don't know who handed out the "you dont need quality summing" badges! I certainly didn't get one!
3 years down the line with DAWS, plug ins aren't ALL brilliant and they dont seem to sum as good as analog consoles do, or DIFFERENTLY at the very least..

So - I'm gonna ROLL WITH IT!

Thats the Sum total of it!

"or if I'm lucky, an AMEK9098 (analog heaven)"

You KNOW IT!

:)

Thanks Jon, I had heard about the board upgrade , but figured that would be upgrade for a fee...

Jules coment in his post mentioned a "free" upgrade, and I didn't believe the ver 2 upgrade would be for free....

Originally posted by Julian Standen:
"the way I often work is to record a whole tracking session onto one ProTools session file, so Song #1 starts at 00:00, song two at 5:30, song 3 at 9:45, etc."

Wow! I suppose 'record safe' and 'locked' channels must be a regular thing... What about edits? You could have HUGE files!!! The back to zero button cant get used much! I would look forward to more info on how you go about your sessions... :)

Not at all. The individual sound files aren't any larger, there's just a whole lot more of them in one folder, because they are all part of one long session file consisting of all the songs on the CD. I'm still stopping recording between songs, so individual soundfiles are the same length as they would normally be. It just stays as one big session file through the tracking stage. At mixdown, as I said, one can start saving the big session file as multiple individual song files.

Yeah, back to zero might not be that useful, but that's what markers are for. I don't see where record safe/locked enters into it any more than on any other session. Even if you were to accidently start to record over the wrong song, one would think you would notice pretty quickly and just hit Command-period. Or Undo. Or revert to saved. Or whatever. You just have to be careful how you do shuffle-mode edits. The Auto-save feature on v5.1 can be a lifesaver, by the way!

And it never bothered me that a song starts at 14:26 instead of 00:00. It's still easy enough to determine total length, etc. I suppose if you were going to expand the form of the song by copy/pasting in extra sections, you could overlap the following song. But at that point, I guess it would be time to save it as a separate song, and forego the advantage of keeping the session intact until the mix.

Sometimes we use beat detective - wont THOUSANDS of edits and fragmantation from multiple takes on many songs cause problems??? What size drives are you using please and how many songs / track counts etc..

:)

Originally posted by Julian Standen:
Sometimes we use beat detective - wont THOUSANDS of edits and fragmantation from multiple takes on many songs cause problems??? What size drives are you using please and how many songs / track counts etc..

:)

I'm really sorry, Julian. I must not be communicating very well. I really can't figure out why this is coming across as complicated or difficult. Let me rephrase with a typical hypothetical session:

Project X is an original roots rock/blues/reggae session where basic tracks of drums, bass, guitar, keys, and a scratch vocal are going to be recorded for 10-12 songs over a two-three day period. Background vocals and final vocals, along with additional keyboard, horn, blues harp, and percussion parts will be added at a future date.

For the basic tracking session I have, let's say, a 15 track ProTools file ready to go - 1 for vox, 1 for guitar, 1 for bass, 2 (stereo) for keys, maybe 10 for drums.

After choosing/moving mics and getting great sounds, and getting everyone happy with their own individual stereo cue mix (at my place I can do 6 individual stereo cue mixes) - it's time to record. Day one we do three takes each of 4 songs - so my session has twelve consecutive 15 track segments stretched out horizontally over, let's say, an hour's worth of ProTools time. Next day, you can pick right up where you left off.

Now, this is only useful if the songs on the project have similar instrumentation. If you had a project where song one was going to be for harp and piccolo, and song two was for solo bagpipes, then there is no advantage to working this way.

Now let's skip ahead to the mix. You save your session file as "SONG ONE MIX" (but all the other songs are still lined up afterwards in the session file) . You mix song one - the drums and bass are SLAMMIN'! The vocals sound like liquid gold - guitar is screamin', etc. You know there is at least four other songs where you'd love to capture that exact same sound in the mixes. Now it is trivial to do so! After mixing song one, reopen and save the session as (for instance) Song 3, Song 7, Song 10, and Song 12. Everything you did to Song One in the mix will now be on those songs as well. Any edits you now do on, say, song 3, won't affect in any way the finished Song 1, because they are now saved as separate session files. Naturally, you may have to zero all the volume automation left over from the previous mix.

If you are using beat detective, you just use it on the time region of the song you are working on, not all 12 songs at once. If you are doing "thousands" of edits, on each song, it shouldn't be any more of a problem than doing thousands of edits on songs that you originally recorded to unique session files. And it seems like fragmentation problems would be the same as well.

FWIW, I track exclusively to one 36GB Glyph Cheetah SCSI 2 drive, and have an 80 GB Maxtor Firewire drive plus my G4's internal 30 GB SCSI drive to store sessions I am simultaneously working on. I may pick up another firewire drive as well, since they have gotten so cheap.

It's not complicated at all - just saves time writing down all the fader and pan-pot positions, saving and naming plugins, etc. when moving from song to song. Of course, you can always start each mix from scratch if you prefer, by accessing the orignal tracking session file. If the track count on the overdubs start piling up because each song has radically different overdub instrumentation, you can always deassign the voices from each song's overdubs and hide the tracks while working from song to song. You can also deactivate (Command Control Click)plug-insfrom those tracks so they aren't using DSP.

Am I helping or hurting here? :p

No. it's great! I got to try that soon...

I use:

9 & 18 gig UW SCSI Hotswap drives
DDS3 Dat Dat back up..

After a lot of drum takes the drives can get a little crankey sometimes.. I always keep a back up drive..

Great tip,

We do a lot of tripple clicking on audio (selects 'all of a track" .. Thats why I ask on "locking" and record safe... I would fear doing something to 'all' and not knoticing a boo boo WAY off screen.. forward or back on the time line..

Thanks a lot for sharing this cool method..

:w: