Private or commercial? Are you the engineer? If so how do you like to work? Primary style of music to be recorded?What do you as a listener hear in todays and yesterdays recordings ?

30,000 is decent but honestly you wont "fill" the studio for that, you won't even come close. I know guys that have spent half a million on equipment, I spent 20,000 within two months and I just have a pretty basic home set up.

Thanks for the replies!

First let me say, my question should have read:
How Would You Setup a Studio With a Thirty Thousand Dollar Budget?

Davedog,
The studio will be private/part time commercial. I have experience in analog recording from having a studio for 15yrs. (10yrs. ago) and also from 38yrs. as a gigging/ studio musician .I don't have much experience with digital recording. The music I'll be recording will be primarily rock/pop. As far as what I hear as a listener,
todays music is much more produced with a clean sound yet full ,yesterdays recordings have a warmer (analog)sound.

mics

akg d112 x1
audix d2 x2
audix d4 x1
akg c451 stereo pair x1
akg c414 x1
shure sm 57 x3
rode k2 x1

soundcard

motu 828 mkII

computer

mac g5 dp 2.5 with 2g ram
logic 7

monitors
how about those mackies?

acoustics
take a look at auralex and similiar... very important!

pre-amps
sebatron 4 channels
and maybe a octopre or something similiar

cables and stuff
be sure to know you'll be spending some big bucks here too!

go check out prices for this at froogle.google.com

I would buy next to nothing new.

For example, at the recent auction for a recently defunct studio in Burbank, CA (The Enterprise) a Fullu blown Mix Cubed system with a fast computer, expansion chassis, glyph,USD drives and six (6!) 888 interfaces went for $7k. So shop wisely. Buy stuff a few years old and save.

to get you started:

DAW-

you're doing mostly rock pop...no need for much MIDI (don't think you need Logic or DP):
I would say go with Digidesign 002r with g5 dual 2.5 (I just picked one up for 1733 on blowout). Pro Tools is VERY easy to use and macs are as well...should have you up and running very quickly.
-----(1200 (002r) + 2500 for computer with HD's, RAM etc.)

DA: Benchmark DAC (1000)
AD: (see ISA 428 below)

Pres:

Great river mp2nv ($2100)
Focusrite ISA428 w/AD card (this will give you 8 great channels of AD) $2100
Sebatron VMP 2000 ($1249)- for a little tube sound....

Compression: again subjective: I don't use it outboard much, so let someone else suggest it.

DI's:

2 Avalon u5 DI's ($900)- stereo for keys, drum machines, samplers (and bass of course!)

Mics: (this section is very subjective)

sm57x3 (250)
beta52x1 (250)
audix d6x1 (250)
KEL Hm1 pair (199)
josephson c42 (pair) (900)
akg c414 (pair) (2199)
soundelux u99 (2795)
BLUE BLUEberry (1000)- killer on dark vox

Monitors: (very subjective)

Dynaudio BM15A pair ($5000)
NS10's (yeah, yeah, they still are very useful) (600 / pair)
poweramp (800-1000)

TOTAL: 25492

that leaves roughly 5,000 for compression, plug ins, studio control, stands, and cables (mackie big knob works fine- if you want to spend more you can get that coleman unit).

This studio is based on my workflow...I do not like to EQ or compress on the way in to the box unless necessary...I have 4 channels of compression that just sits in my rack...there are many wonderful and surgical (and nn-destructive I might add) plug ins that will do the trick quite well. If you are big on outboard compression, you may want to substitute something out for a compressor or two. I would not suggest outboard EQ unless you REALLY want it. If so, I owned the Speck ASC's and they are stellar units. ...this would be a top notch studio.

30,000 is plenty...

Oops. I read the dimentions wrong...those bm15A's might be too much for a small control room. Check out the Dynauadio BM6A's and that will save you a couple thousand right there......put the extra $$$ into compression maybe/???

Recorderman, I agree with you about saving some money , but I like the warranty with the new purchases ,Just in case of a problem down the line.

PCM Theres a good portion of items on your list that I've been considering. First ,where did you get the Apple for $1733?
The best price I've gotten was $3005 for a G5 2.5 2gb(2x1gb sticks)and $490 for two LaCie 250gb Big Disc D2 Extreme= $3495.00

As far as the 002R , I am looking at that as well , but was concerned about the latency , so I was thinking of tracking to a Hard Disk , then transfering to the DAW , Not to deal with it .But then I need a analog or digital board,which I also been thinking about. Being an analog guy ,I always had a board in front of me, don't know if I'll get used too just a keyboard and mouse.
Anyway with the Benchmark DAC , how are you using it ? Are you monitoring out of the S/pdif on the 002R to the DAC ?If so, are you using the monitor outputs for the talent.

With monitors I've been considering the BM6A's as well as the JBL's LSR6328's, I have my old NS-10's with Hafler amps from my old studio.Pres I've been checking out are the Focusrite ISA428 w/AD card (if I went with the 002R) Vintech1272 ,APi3124 ,2-610and Great river mp2nv

DavedogI'd like to hear you suggestions, let me know!!

Thanks again for the replies, all your info definitely helps!
As I have so much to consider
TomF

TomF wrote: PCM Theres a good portion of items on your list that I've been considering. First ,where did you get the Apple for $1733?
The best price I've gotten was $3005 for a G5 2.5 2gb(2x1gb sticks)and $490 for two LaCie 250gb Big Disc D2 Extreme= $3495.00

As far as the 002R , I am looking at that as well , but was concerned about the latency , so I was thinking of tracking to a Hard Disk , then transfering to the DAW

Anyway with the Benchmark DAC , how are you using it ? Are you monitoring out of the S/pdif on the 002R to the DAC ?

With monitors I've been considering the BM6A's as well as the JBL's LSR6328's, I have my old NS-10's with Hafler amps from my old studio.Pres I've been checking out are the Focusrite ISA428 w/AD card (if I went with the 002R) Vintech1272 ,APi3124 ,2-610and Great river mp2nv

Hi Tom, good to know you also have Ns10's as that will knock money off the budget I suggested for you.

When apple comes out with new computers, they reduce the very strict minimums on their computers. One of my good friends is a manager at a major music center, so....(1733 is a tad above cost). By the way, NEVER buy RAM from apple...check out OWC (macsales.com). They have great RAM and also hard drives that are cheaper and IMO far superior to LAcie. I will never again buy LAcie products as I've had problems with every piece of gear I've ever bought from them. I got two FW800 drives from OWC that are fantastic and came out to be cheaper (OWC enclosures and then I installed two seagate 120 gig 8 MB cache drives).

I have the 002r and am happy with it. It's nothing stellar, but it runs pro tools, and IMO that alone is worth it...and I also run DP 4.5. Latency has not been an issue, and I've been running on a powerbook. A powerful machine like the g5 and you can probably run at 64 or 128 samples up until final mix. Never had any complaints.

I use RME DA/AD through ADAT, so as far as the benchmark is concerned, yes I would suggest SPDIF...there is a software setting in the 002r driver that can SPDIF mirror analog outs 1&2 (002r monitor mains) so personally, I would run 002r mains to a headphone distribution amp (for musicians...I doubt they'll complain about DA conversion) and use the SPDIF outs for Benchmark monitor DA. I think you'll probably have to invest in some sort of control station to have both of those sets of monitors hooked up simultaneously to the benchmark.

The dynaudios are amazing. Can't go wrong with them. Have to say though, I was really impressed with the JBL's as well (not sure which model I heard, but the one with 8" woofer)...

As for pres...looks like we are on the exact same page...i suggested the sebatron instead of the UA to save a few bucks, but either one is a great tube front end. The vintech and great river are certainly not the same, but similar enough that I would choose one over the other (I would choose the GR but both are great pieces of gear). The ISA is a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned (the AD is quite nice actually). NOt sure if you are aware of this, but the AD card allows 4 extra analog inputs (in addition to AD conversion for the 4 built in pres) so if you got the mp2nv (or 1272) & 2-610 (or sebatron), or just the API 3124, you'd have 8 channels of ROCK solid pre and conversion....BTW, the u5's (I own two) are amazing on bass.

This website has some audio samples posted of many different pres:

http://

IMO, it's not done perfectly and it's hard to compare as they use many different sources (and it's mp3), but it's good enough to get basic sonic ideas of different pres....

Awww man, I wish I could start fresh...

Whichever system you decide upon,do demo it rather completely as all have their plusses and minuses.I like the ProTools simply because its easy to use and transfers to any studio(mostly) around.On the other hand Cubase and other programs have a lot going for them.It seems that workflow and familiarity are the important issues in this choice.A powerful computing platform with lots of speed and drivespace will reduce latency in any setup.

Pop/rock will require some pieces to have color and some without.

mics: While I dont know what vocals you'll be dealing with,be your own or a partners, a primary high-end mic is very important.You want to put up something that 9 times outta 10 is going to produce usable results without a lot of fuss.Part of this equation is to have you vocal environment down.Being a former studio owner this goes without saying.It involves not only sound control but vibe as well......

Soundelux U99 or iFET7.....Gefell UM92....Lawson 47...Korby 47....Neumann(duh)...Blue Bottle...all of these are in the ballpark and are simply flavors.

instrument mics..a couple of ribbons.AEA R84 is good choice as are Beyer M160's.
Audix makes really good and solid sounding drum mics and can be a saving in your budget that may allow for a bit more spent elsewhere.The "D" series is quite good.Through a very good pre these sound quite amazing and they work in a lot of other situations as well.

Sennheiser MD421's are standards....Electrovoice RE20 is a great mic to have in a collection....Shure SM7 always finds a spot on a project, sometimes can be the savior of a vocal that the big mic just cant get...SM57...okay but the new Audix i5 gives it a real run for the money.At a similar price point.

A few other condensers would include a stereo pair for acoustic instruments..You really cannot go wrong with the Neumann KM series.I dont specify model because you may like working omni mics for this purpose and if your room is up to it this will be a great help.There are lots of others in this department, but the Neumanns will not build up a lot of crud from multiple passes which you can certainly do with a digital system that is capable of great numbers of tracks.After having a #1-go-to LDC already, other LDC's are like icing and variety.There are a LOT of second tier less expensive LDC's that sound really good used in small amounts on a project.
Rode...ADK...Studio Projects...these are some of the best in this catagory.

Preamps...This is a land of many colors. Quality will always be your friend.In working a digital system you'll need enough to do as many instruments as you can envision recording all at once.Since you have some experience in this it'll be up to you to decide whats best.If you like to do a basic band all at once then you'll need at least 12 channels avaiable when the red light goes on.12 channels of high-end pres is a big number.So your compromise comes at the expense of the drums first,guitars next.Bass and vocals never.Heres waht I would do.

2-API 3124= 8 channels
1 John Hardy 4 pack
theres 12 right there to equal all others. Then I would buy one channel strip with everything you might want in tracking a vocal or solo guitar sax ...basically anything thats a feature in a song.

Theres lots of other stuff...Monitors are important.You have NS10's..You want a set of main tracking monitors.The JBL's are good.B&W's...Genelec...Dyne's...stay away from the Mackies.(sorry mackie lovers theyre just not in the same league as Dynaudio,genelc,B&W...etc)

Aa Apogee to clock with...If you do go with a harddisk recorder get great converters.

One thing....GREAT tracks are more about comfort and vibe than the amount of blue lights in the racks.

Hi there Tom

If you are getting Dynaudio monitors, and your rooms are well balanced and treated...I'd highly recommend Dynaudio BM15a's.

Go for the 6a's if you already have soffit mounted main monitors, but it doesn't sound like it...

OR go for B & W Nautilus

Dynaudio's will keep you & your clients happy and your mixes should translate very well to the outside world within a short space of learning time...

There's also ADAM & PMC and many others...all very good monitors...

Affordable preamps (but theres already a plethora of fantastic suggestions above) : Sytek & Sebatron.

A VERY comfortable chair is HIGHLY recommended such as the Herman Miller Aeron chair.

A VERY comfortable and styilsh couch is also HIGHLY recommended!!! Your clients will appreciate this to the extreme! Really important and oft overlooked factor of a studio: client comfort.

do you have bass traps? http://www.realtraps.com

Best of luck.

http://

I've actually heard three reports of this chair FIXING back problems. It's not often a chair can claim that!

I'm not sure the latency issues you're speaking of on the 002r. I've been running it for 9 months on a 20" imac g5 and I don't have any problem with latency. I mostly record rock so the 002r was a pretty decent choice and digidesign gives away pretty good plug ins once in a blue moon.

Aa Apogee to clock with...If you do go with a harddisk recorder get great converters.

Davedog,
Your using the alesis HD24.How are the converters or are you using something else? I was looking at the HD24XR as well.Are you also using the Apogee to clock with?

If I go with a console.I have to decide between an analog or digital . The two consoles that I've been considering are, the SoundCraft Ghost 32 and the Yamaha 02R96V2. With the Yamaha I'd have to go in ADAT on the alesis. I'm not sure how light pipe interface will sound with the two.
Any opinions on these two console choices?

Thanks Again For the Replies!!!!! :D
TomF

a few things from me :

1. I believe analog mixers are a lot easier to repair (usually) than digital ones (read: less downtime) and you don't have to worry about whether or not you're up to date on the latest sample rate yada yada. i track to Pro Tools TDM with analog pre's and some bit of an analog console (sometimes) and monitor playback, talkback, and midi gear through the console (Soundtracs Topaz). I can't find anything near the features and sound anywhere near the price (the Ghost would be a cool option).

2. If you go the DAW route, buy the biggest coolest monitor you can because you will probably upgrade computers but keep the same monitor for A WHILE. You'll be REALLY glad if you spend the money now on a BIG bad monitor because you will look at it A WHOLE LOT! (I'm dying for a big 27" LCD TV with PC inputs. They're getting CHEAP!)

3. I'm a big Pro Tools fan (using since 1997) and you can get a lot of power with an HD rig (about half or more of your budget there with plugs, interfaces, etc. or you could go used). add a stack of good mics, good pre's, headphones, HP monitoring, mic stands, monitors, desk, chair, more, more MORE!!!!

have fun!

mckay

bounce wrote: a few things from me :

2. If you go the DAW route, buy the biggest coolest monitor you can because you will probably upgrade computers but keep the same monitor for A WHILE. You'll be REALLY glad if you spend the money now on a BIG bad monitor because you will look at it A WHOLE LOT! (I'm dying for a big 27" LCD TV with PC inputs. They're getting CHEAP!)

I would recommend against getting an LCD TV for DAW purposes. LCD TV's generally have lower resolutions (<1024*768) then their computer oriented counterparts- and generally are quite expensive as well! A lower resolution means you will be able to fit less information (tracks, plugins, mixer channels) on your computer screen.

If you decide to go the DAW route, you might want to consider using two LCD screens with a preferred resolution of 1600 * 1200. This will provide you with plenty screen space.
The Dell FP2005 20 inch LCD had some nice deals on it recently at ~ 350 USD (http://forums.anandtech.com/categories.aspx?catid=40&entercat=y). This would get you two 20 inch 1600 * 1200 LCD screens at a price point which is probably lower then one single 27 inch LCD TV.

You'd be surprised at the prices and resolution of some of the LCD's and plasmas these days...They're getting cheap and fancy pantsy here in L.A.
Seems to work for Hans Zimmer!

If you plan on doing more detailed graphic work on your monitor (ie. photoshop, etc.) you'd probably want to stay in the PC monitor world.

For years I've been using a mammoth beast of a black Cannon 21" CRT that weighs more than Detroit and have been eyeing the LCD monitors to see where I'm gonna land. The dell prices look great (I just hate the split screen thing. it drives me crazy-feels like bad drum edits- hee hee). But everyone has their favorite way of working ; )

mckay

one point when buying LCD screens is to see the one your goin to buy each of them have dead pixels. the larger the screen the more dead pixels, so look at the one your going to buy, this is just as important as trying any things else, and when i say try the one your goin to buy i mean the exact ones. while your still at the store open the box and plug them in, and look hard and close, look for flutter and dead pixls. and if you buy one your goin to want two, so just save your self the trouble and buy two the first time so they match.

i would also say what ive heard, motus converters are not that great, and neather are most digital mixers, the only digixal mixer i would buy is software on my DAW speaking of which Cubase is a great program if you go PC. if you go mac with protools expect to spend 7-10k on a good protools system i dont recomend the 002 becasue you can get better for less.

I have 2 lcd screen and it work great for me- I split them with the tracks, controls, audio waveform and the mixer is spread across the 2 screens- works great for me although some of those apple 30" screens look awful good- they will set you back 3k though, so unless you got money to burn...

The all digital vs.analog question is the number one question amoungst many folks.Yeah, I did go with a harddrive based standalone recorder.A lot of this was due to how I like to work and because I come from analog with a lot of hours in it.I bought the Alesis because I felt that the ADAT technology was soundly in place by the time I bought the unit,I dont mind destructive recording because I've only experienced destructive recording in the past,AND I think you do it again till its right.....and therefore I went with an analog console.I've personally spent a crapload of time on various analog mixers/consoles and the Ghost was the best bang for the buck I had experienced.As for the comparison to digital mixers, I dont have the expertise, but I do think the pres are probably a bit more musical in the Ghost.My Alesis is stock...The converters in the upgraded HR24xr are well worth the price and if I were to upgrade my HR24,I would be getting the add-on converters. I dont worry much about the clock in my rig, but in the mix-down studio I use, the Apogee is the choice with an HD3 ProTools rig.He has so much horsepower and the plugs are really getting quite good.I have some experience with original Urie gear, and I can safely say the UA plugs as far as the LA2A,1176 and things like that sound amazingly close only without the noise you will get with the hardware versions.Mind you, I have not set them side by side, but the uses and ease of operation and the final results of using these pieces in a mix was enough to convince me to eventually get the ProTools or something of that nature.

One thing....In doing PT or Cubase or whatever, in getting a decent console for your monitoring duties, you also have pres that as utility inputs are going to help in a large multiple mic recording session....Some will say this is a bad choice as the mic pres in this situation do not carry enough quality to be usable.I say it depends on your skills,your ears,your budget,your choices of your work flow...Its so subjective.I am NOT saying that high-end mics and pres are what you shouldnt be looking at.But! a decent console does allow for perhaps fewer channels of high-end needed at the starting point.You're always going to need the channels to monitor a large number of tracks in playback and tracking,so use em till you get ALL high-end pres as you deem necessary for your particular application.

I personally am still in the thought process, protools or whatever, of always haveing a console of some sort.Were I able to seriously upgrade now,a big computer-based system would be a reality as would a Trident,Neotech,DDA,Sony MXP,Amek....something with a lot of channels and really good sounding electronics.I'm not afraid of maintainence...we can do it at the ranch...and if this is your leaning also, then the true bargains to be found in quality consoles are at your disposal in that price range.This would not preclude having that special vocal chain,great numero uno mic,special processors..etc etc. A lot of folks are dumping their consoles because of several reasons, but mainly because of footprint and maintainence.The guys that have spent the time learning maintainence dont have that problem, and if you're talking a non or semi commercial facility it might be something to ponder. just my $1.67

bounce wrote: You'd be surprised at the prices and resolution of some of the LCD's and plasmas these days...They're getting cheap and fancy pantsy here in L.A.
Seems to work for Hans Zimmer!

If you plan on doing more detailed graphic work on your monitor (ie. photoshop, etc.) you'd probably want to stay in the PC monitor world.

For years I've been using a mammoth beast of a black Cannon 21" CRT that weighs more than Detroit and have been eyeing the LCD monitors to see where I'm gonna land. The dell prices look great (I just hate the split screen thing. it drives me crazy-feels like bad drum edits- hee hee). But everyone has their favorite way of working ; )

mckay

The interesting part is that one single 350-400 USD, 20 inch, 1600 x 1200 lcd monitor gives you more space (46%) to work on then a ~1100 USD, 1280X1024, 27 inch lcd tv monitor- and that's just with a single screen setup. Very useful when working with a large number of tracks. And the smaller size makes it less of a problem with early reflections etc.

I agree that working in split screen does require some getting used to. But most LCD screen have quite thin borders nowadays, which eases the pain somewhat.

Still, some people might prefer the larger size of a huge LCD TV screen, because it tends to be easier on the eyes for some people. So, yeah, I agree that in the end it's also a matter of personal preference ;)

just to chime back in again...Davedog makes some excellent points about HD recording....

however, if you are doing rock / pop, the non-destructive editing features in something like Pro Tools are just phenomenal. NOt to mention the simplicity of playlists / comping etc. Especially for pop singers / producers....as you know they all really sound like shit and you've gotta make em sound nice....

If you really put 0 latency at the top of your list for important qualifications, you might just want to shell out for an HD setup. The plugs are pretty outstanding nowadays...

Also, how many tracks will you really need? I've always thought a mid-price analog console to be a sort of bloated purchase...you get a lot of quantitiy but not a lot of quality. 10-12 high end (rack) pres and a small but well selected high end mic collection will take you further IMO than a mid-level mixer (not knocking the soundcraft as it's quite nice...it's just not in API, GR, Hardy territory). And you KNOW people are gonna want "that sound".

just to chime back in again...Davedog makes some excellent points about HD recording....

however, if you are doing rock / pop, the non-destructive editing features in something like Pro Tools are just phenomenal. NOt to mention the simplicity of playlists / comping etc. Especially for pop singers / producers....as you know they all really sound like shit and you've gotta make em sound nice....

If you really put 0 latency at the top of your list for important qualifications, you might just want to shell out for a Pro Tools HD setup. The plugs are pretty outstanding nowadays...

Also, how many tracks will you really need? I've always thought a mid-price analog console to be a sort of bloated purchase...you get a lot of quantitiy but not a lot of quality. 10-12 high end (rack) pres and a small but well selected high end mic collection will take you further IMO than a mid-level mixer (not knocking the soundcraft as it's quite nice...it's just not in API, GR, Hardy territory). And you KNOW people are gonna want "that sound".

This was my point exactly and a mid level board would only be an option if the work requires that many inputs all at once.My original post was along the lines of the dedicated high-end pres as well as the great mic collection. 8)

Everyone Thanks Again !

You have me thinking now! :?

I was leaning towards the Hard Disk and console, for the same reason Davedog did, I'm coming from analog .And being familiar with working that way,I felt safer going that route.I also figured it would lessen my learning curve.

Well ,I guess I have to go kicking and screaming from the analog world and wrap my head around the digital. I definitely agree with dedicated high-end pres as well as the great mic collection.

PCM wrote

If you really put 0 latency at the top of your list for important qualifications, you might just want to shell out for a Pro Tools HD setup. The plugs are pretty outstanding nowadays...

I've checked the HD setup, it would put me way over my budget. And if I went that way,I won't be able to get the good pres and mics,etc.It would be a bare bone setup. With the latency ,I not putting it at the top of my list .I just don't have much experience with digital recording.I going by what I've read and it seems to be an issue especially with the 002R.But PCM ,you and jonnyc confirmed ,Latency has not been an issue.

Okay, coming from behind a board theres one thing I can't get out of my head and thats to have some sort of knobs and faders in front of me. I don't know if I can get use to just a keyboard and mouse.

Any suggestions on a control surface for the oo2R
Control24,Command8,Mackie,US-2400?

Thanks
Tom

If you must have a control surface, the mackie control is good- If you get a main and two expanders you should be set for 24 ch- I believe you can get them on ebay quite cheaper than new, so it should set you back around 2k for 24 ch. The behringer control has gotten good feedback from end users and they are only about $229 ea, so we are talking about $700 for 24 ch, so take your pick.

I used to have the mackies but I sold them with my old commercial studio and I decided to not get'em again in my new home studio- I have gotten very handy with the mouse and did not see the need-