I use KRK RP5's. They need a subwoofer but they are pretty decent.

Go on ebay and get a pair of auratones if you can find them, around 300 or if you want the standard spend a little bit more for Yamaha NS10, 400-500. If you don't have one, you'll need a power amp but those are not too expensive, 100 used. The same priced powered monitors have never seemed to work for mixing, for me anyway - except as a reference point - they can be useful that way. I have a pair of Events that are good in the overall scheme of mixing.

+1 on the RP5s. I think they are the best I auditioned at that price point. I checked out Fostex and M-Audio at that same price.

I would just make sure you check your mixes with other speakers. There is a weird mid range plateau at like 3.5hz for me, but its my room I believe.

ahh good somebody mentioned, I was trying to incorporate one other question in here. Passive monitors are obviously better than active right? but to use them you need a power amp? How exactly does that work?

Go listen to some Mackie MR5's....they are around $180 each....they have nice tight low end....very clean in the mid's and top end, they are "active" (55W LF & 30W HF) powered, they have balanced inputs....my buddy bought some and they were very nice for the price....
I think the KRK Rokit, RP5's, Yamaha were all in the same ballpark....but you should go down to your local music retailer (like Gitar Ctr....ahhhhh..sorry) and see if you can get someone there to help you (good luck with that BTW) hookup a few sets of monitors to the same music with lots of range that you like...maybe your own stuff on a Cd or memstick..spend some time demoing in the sound room....have some fun with it...do the ole A/B test and see which one sounds the best to you....it's really the best way to buy speakers...very subjective....take a bud along too for objective input....they are all very close...but some are bright with less low end (will need a subwoofer which is not a bad thing)...but some sound very clean all around....which is what you're looking for anyway..and passive is fine too but then you need to get a decent amp like a Crown....mo money!
hey and don't forget to check your mixes with a good pair of headphones....or even those little earpod types......everybody's wearin em these days so pretend your an itune commercial and have a listen ...

Guitarfreak wrote: Passive monitors are obviously better than active right? but to use them you need a power amp? How exactly does that work?

No, they are not obviously better. They are two different types of speakers. There are a lot of differences in price, size, and amount of space you have. There is also a lot of differences involving the crossover, which someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am might explain.

I'd like to have someone who knows better chime in as well.

I have (1) a pair of passive monitors (8" woofer) w/ a 15" sub, and (2) a pair of active monitors (5"woofer).
Oddly enough, I seem to get a better sense of the bottom (balance-wise) w/ the smaller, active monitors than the passive 2.1 setup. Better translation, too.
Could be the room? Or a variety of other things?

That's why I also always have w/ me a pair of quality, trustworthy headphones. They serve as my reality check whether I am in the control room or listening on my laptop or desktop.
Expect to spend upwards of $200 for such a pair.

Isn't recording/mixing fun? What bank account?

I really like my Klipsch THX system or my JBL's for a listen too...
It's all good with a variety of speakers or headphones....so don't get rid of your Altec's...they can still be of value
Sony MDR-7506 are a good headphone choice and I really like my ATH-M50's which you can listen to without fatigue and they seem to have much better low end than the Sony's....

iamfrobs wrote: [quote=Guitarfreak]Passive monitors are obviously better than active right? but to use them you need a power amp? How exactly does that work?

No, they are not obviously better. They are two different types of speakers. There are a lot of differences in price, size, and amount of space you have. There is also a lot of differences involving the crossover, which someone who is far more knowledgeable than I am might explain.

There you go again with those statements about something being obvious which you know nothing about. Didnt you learn the first time?

I have a pair of powered monitors. I also have a pair of passive monitors. I have a really good power amp for the passives. Why? you ask....Because music is a complex signal with all sorts of transient and rapid rises in frequencies for short periods of time, and a great power amp must be able to handle these in order to give you a good look at what you're hearing in order to accurately mix.

You will NOT get this in a $100 power amp, unless it is used and a real bargain. I suppose you could find a really used up Crown of some kind for $100......Good luck on it lasting very long....at that price it probably would have seen better days or is a low powered one at best.

Am I going to fast?

Powered monitors , especially really good ones, like mine, have power amps, crossovers and drivers specifically designed for the cabinet, the cabinet material, and the projected usage of the monitors.

While they may not have as much wattage on the label and spec sheets, chances are really good that they are very efficient and the power ratings do not reflect the amount of volume you can get from such a box.

Or the accuracy of the reproduced signal.

Monitors in a studio setting arent meant to be speakers that give you enhanced listening pleasure, they are tools to help you accurately reproduce your art so it can be heard clearly on speakers designed for pleasurable listening.

Earlier, JPStudios mentioned a couple of monitors that I must take exception here to. Especially in this case. Auratones and NS-10's, while being studio standards, are used for reference more than mixing, and they are an aquired taste for ears that have been trained to hear what they have to offer. These are NOT monitors for beginners.

So in the overall scheme of things, a pair of powered monitors of a decent quality and sound will be cheaper in the long run than passives. They will be easier to hook-up, and will more than likely sound the way you need them to while you are learning about this business.

And stop saying how fucking obvious things are when you have no clue. K?

"Am I going to fast?"

I dunno.
Ramadan isn't for a while, though?

Some strong opinions here. Truth be known, I use a combination of high quality head phones and passive NS10s for the mixing part, auratones are good for translation and the powered stuff for translation in different settings. I have several sets, including cheap set of different types of monitors (7). My mixes have to pass the test on all of these sets and somehow it works. Passive can be more expensive than powered but you can get some good used stuff on ebay for under 100 if you know what you are looking for, e.g., a used altec lansing. And yes, you might have to take it in for a $50 parts replacement when it stops working. I certainly don't have any stomach issues if you go with a good set of powered for mixing and high detail- meaning mixing head phones. There are deals on all over the place right now. Good luck.

thanks for the good advice. And Davedog, you never cease to amaze me. Your information is really good and I trust you because you obviously know what you are talking about, but I was just posing a question.

It seems there are a few people who use KRK RP5, are they really only $150? wow in that case. Somebody mentioned that it needs a subwoofer, can you explain a little more? Is it NEEDED and/or required? or does the product just lack in the bass department?

Amazing for the price.
Gives you something to start with and build from. Not what you will be using a couple years from now, but great entry level.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Samson-R5A-Rubicon-Pair-Active-Ribbon-Studio-Monitors_W0QQitemZ350162322221QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Some systems are a bit bass lite. This is the reason we use reference speakers to check this sort of thing with. Your car stereo is a great place to find out if your mixes are translating. Not particularly convient.

Getting a sub right away doesnt mean you'll make better mixes.

Learning your monitors is the ONLY way you'll ever get really good with them no matter WHAT system you use. This involves repeated playbacks and mixes and reference checking them on other sytems.

Better monitors dont necessarily mean you'll be a better mixer, it means you'll have a tool that will operate at a higher standard than others (subjective) and may make it EASIER to learn how to HEAR a mix and all of its nuances than a system that may have some flaws in its reproduction capabilites.

I like those Rubicons as a beginners monitor. They have very very good highs due to the ribbon tweeter. The low-end isnt what it can be, but they're 5" speakers in a small case. This doesnt mean you cant get good low-end, it just means you'll have to learn how these particular speakers reproduce low-end and what they're lacking towards this.

I recommend them because of the high-end being so good and for a beginner this helps in establishing a wider stereo field and helps in separation of the instruments. Low-end in a small working area is pretty much omnipresent and with a sub even more so to the middle of things in a small room.

I also recommend the lower end Mackie stuff. Its branded Tapco and their small bookshelf monitors are pretty good.

For all you young'uns, Mackie came from being Tapco in its early years. They were the first company to build a small footprint 6 channel mixer with a LOT of output. The old dogs on here know exactly what I'm talking about. We have all, most likely, owned or used one in the past.

The KRK's are another brand well worth checking into. Their larger items are very good so they are used to building quality equipment.

Just an aside to you MrGuitarfreak, when posing a QUESTION its always best to word it AS a question rather than a statement of fact with the idea of gathering information through disagreement. Capice?

I've taken a look at some of the things mentioned here, and the options look really good. Thanks a lot guys!

Mackie
link removed Seems decent, but is it only one speaker? Throughout the document it seems like it is referring to only one speaker and not a speaker set. I don't think I would like that.

KRK
link removed It seems very good and I might end up getting it. But how does it compare to the link removed Is it worth the extra money?

The Yamaha NS-10's seem absolutely amazing but might be a bit pricey for me right now. I can't find them retail, do they not make them anymore?

Samson
http://cgi.ebay.com/Samson-R5A-Rubicon-Pair-Active-Ribbon-Studio-Monitors_W0QQitemZ350162322221QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 They also seem really good, but about the ribbon tweeter. If ribbon tweeter is anything like a ribbon mic, then it means its fragile. And I like to crank things up. I am forseeing problems in the future if this is the case.

You wouldn't be using any of these as front of the house PA speakers, so I don't get where you would crank things up.

Generally the price is per monitor unless stated otherwise. The MR5 is definitely $179 per side.

NS10s are not "amazing" though some find them handy. I sat in a studio for months that had a pair of those. I only used them for comparison. Other than that, I like mixing on the Ureis.

The larger "Woofer" on the KRKs will give you better bottom end. So imho, yes they are worth the extra money.

hueseph wrote: Generally the price is per monitor unless stated otherwise.

Wow, real eye opener there. I thought it was $150 for a pair. Do they each come with an interface? and/or how do they interact with my iMac? Will I have to buy a separate interface just to use them?

Guitarfreak wrote: Do they each come with an interface? and/or how do they interact with my iMac? Will I have to buy a separate interface just to use them?

No.

Next question.

Yes.

Did you even look up the Tapco monitors? They are made by Mackie and are about half the price of the Mackies. I have heard them and they are great little starter monitors. 123music sells them too.

Ribbon mics are fragile if youre blowing huge puffs of air into them. A ribbon tweeter is designed by the company to handle the power they have put behind them and I dont believe anybody blows puffs of air into their monitors speakers from the outside.....Of course I guess you never know.

NS-10s are NOT amazing. They are a 'learned delicacy'. They are NOT a beginning speaker. They do one thing and only one thing.

Guitarfreak wrote: ahh good somebody mentioned, I was trying to incorporate one other question in here. Passive monitors are obviously better than active right? but to use them you need a power amp? How exactly does that work?

Powered speakers are just that they each have there own internal power amp, crossover and speakers. Each speaker actually plugs into the AC.
They only require a line in (balanced or unbalanced) from your mixer or interface to work....because everything is contained within each speaker the internal components are well matched to the design....that''s also why they are more expensive then say a couple passive radio shack speakers and a receiver amp....
Passive's are not obviously better because now you have to select a decent "passive" speaker that has decent cones with decent crossovers and a decent power amp....that's the difference and that's how those work
red to plus black to minus!

So what kind of plugs do monitors have, and what kind of interface would I need, does the firebox work? My instincts say no, but figured since it's on its way anyway I would ask. I would look this stuff up on my own but I wouldn't know what to call it.

Most have balanced XLR connectors on the back for hookup but many have combo jacks that allow either the 3 pin XLR balanced connectors or 1/4" phone jacks....similiar to the front mic/line connectors on the FireBox.
They can be balanced or unbalanced....I would use balanced for best signal and noise rejection...

check out the rear image on this KRK model
this is typical

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--KRKRP8G2

The firebox should do fine. Connections are usually balanced TRS or XLR.

The Firebox has main outs located on the rear which accept 1/4" TRS or TS cables which you plug into your monitors, and it has a volume control on the face.

I was wondering when I purchased this type of unit I was told to use unbalanced cables between the main out and powered speakers that using balanced cables in this situation was not recommended. Any truth to this?

jg49
This was extracted form Presonus knowledgebase:

Grounding issues can be quite common between devices. The FireBox is not a grounded device, but every connection on the FireBox is balanced to provide shielding. The easiest solution is to use balanced cables to connect the outputs of your FireBox to your monitors. If your monitors have only XLR inputs, you will need TRS-XLR(Male) cables. If your monitors offer ¼” inputs, you can also use TRS-TRS cables.

If your audio equipment has differentially balanced inputs and outputs.....you should always use them!
By doing so you will always reduce any hum or noise in your signal chain!

Forgive me for being a studio noob, but there's some terminology here that's a bit confusing. Is TRS the same as saying 1/4"? is XLR balanced or unbalanced? And while we're at it what is the difference between balanced and unbalanced?

TRS = Tip, Ring, Sleeve
Goes back to the old telephone days where:
Tip = the off hook signal sent to the central office from the phone
Ring = the ring back signal from the CO to the phone
Sleeve = GND (ground)....
The tip and ring lines are considered "balanced" from GND.
In telephone talk (48VDC into 600 ohms...positive ground reference for battery (talk) and during ring back around 90VAC)...old school ringers!
That hurts your fingers if you've ever touched them when a phone rings!
Don't try that at home kids...it hurts!
1/4" "phone" jacks were used as patch cables in old switchboards (the old ones you see women running in the movies) and they are 1/4" in diameter....not to be confused with RCA phono jacks which are the little guys....they are always unbalanced!...which is why most pro equipment don't have any!
In microphones and pro audio equipment TRS is also implemented with XLR connectors...the big silver tapered connectors!
Tip is + (high), Ring - (low) and Sleeve which is also the shell of the connector is GND (Shield)
Either type of jack will provide a balanced transmission line.
BTW 1/4" TS (Tip and Sleeve only) is what most guitar players use they have only two terminals and are unbalanced....which is why you always get a buzzz or hum or noise when you touch them when there hot!
The difference between balanced and unbalanced is that the electrical signal on a balanced transmission line flows between the + and - wires with no connection reference to ground. On an unbalanced line the signal flows between + and GND and the ground side can and will pick up noise
Balanced is always better!
Whew

Thanks for the reply I should have been more specific i am actually using a Firestudio Project which I believe is grounded (it has a three prong outlet though I am not sure that means it is grounded.)

Perhaps the use of an unbalanced cable between two gounded units is preferable, I just don't know why they recommended an unbalanced cable. Especially since the KRK 8 monitors say balanced 1/4" input.

TRS= Tip, ring, sleeve. A 1/4" cable with with two isolating rings and three conductors. This is the type of connection on the a stereo headphone, though not to confuse you but headphones are not balanced because two of the conductors are in use to supply a right and left channel seperately. A balanced cable has a ground and then sends one signal over both of the other conductors one out of phase to the other this reduces hum and noise.

TS= Tip, sleeve. This type of 1/4" cable has one isolating ring and two conductors. This is your typical guitar cable.

XLR cables are typically balanced unless adapted to carry a stereo signal which is not typical.

I believe this is right but I could be wrong and if so someone please correct me.

use balanced and you cant go wrong
the AC outlet is grounded for your safety

I'm gonna ask DaveDog to follow up behind me, since he's a qualified sparky...

Basic electrical theory and some VERY basic electronics is at the very least, something anyone involved in the equipment aspect of recording should be at least somewhat, if not thoroughly familiar with.

If you can't handle even the most basic of electricity, you get what you deserve if you're prone to accepting a Darwin Award.

At least learn what Voltage, Current and Resistance are.... and Ohms law.

All electronic equipment sold in the US for the last... oh... say.... 40 years or so, has a ground. Otherwise, it cannot get a CSA or UL listing to be able to be legally sold in the US, or Canada.

Grounding is a science into itself, if you wanna get real fussy about it.

Essentially, there are two types of ground... Equipment or Chassis Ground, and Signal Ground.

When you get right down to it, Chassis ground is best thought of as the case or enclosure for the equipment, being tied to the earth/ground potential of the electrical circuit powering said piece of equipment.

If the power supply is energized, it is getting AC power that is referenced from that circuit's earth potential to the line voltage. If the power supply, or any high energy circuit in the device, shorts out, the energy is "shorted" to the chassis/ground and a high current flow is supposed to exceed the circuit's rating, and trip a breaker.

Signal ground is usually based up chassis ground, but isn't always... and isn't always indicative of gear quality.

Signal ground can float, or not be connected, to earth ground. When connecting floating signal ground pieces to tied signal ground pieces, you can, and usually will, have noise issues. This is where gear quality comes into play. In better designs, there is either transformer isolation of the signal, or higher quality buffering circuitry to keep noise out of the signal path.

In a "balanced" signal path, there are two signal wires/connectors and a shield, or ground.

The signal is passed along two conductors, while the shield, usually an outer conductor of braided wire, is tied to signal ground. This shield being tied to a ground potential; drains, shields, dumps (or any number of applicable terms) stray radio frequency signals, power supply filter noise and/or any stray or unwanted signals to ground.

Therefore, it is balanced from the standpoint of the signal being split between the two primary conductors and not referenced to ground.

This is correct.

Lets understand that a 'signal' in and out of an audio device is isolated from the power system that is being used to operate the internal devices necessary to operate the signal with whatever function is required of the device itself. Should this signal circuit become part of the power circuit , you are going to feel it . Probably for a while, depending on how much of the reference to ground you are.

Better grade gear is designed to have the power supply and the internal signal processing parts fairly well isolated from each other to lessen the noise, any RF in the area and to prevent electrical shock.

In rack mounted gear, the better quality stuff will have a chassis ground lug on the outside of the case and all of these should be tied together and earthed somewhere in reference to the power supply for the rack.

This is in addition to the little round prong on your supply cable that you plug into the wall.

Also. For safety sake. Never invert your receptacles ie: so the round prong is in the up position. This is your safety net for any shorts to ground and the last thing you want coming out of your power supply.

If its on top it will be the first thing to become disconnected and you take your life in your hands with this situation.

Remember. It only takes a few milliamps properly grounded to stop a heart.

Now when you say the ground is in the up position, you don't mean like if the wall outlet is inverted making the ground fall above the two prongs right? Is all you are saying that as long as the ground is plugged into the ground slot that things should be fine?

Davedog wrote: Remember. It only takes a few milliamps properly grounded to stop a heart.

Or a bottle of Clan MacGregor.....

Guitarfreak wrote: Now when you say the ground is in the up position, you don't mean like if the wall outlet is inverted making the ground fall above the two prongs right? Is all you are saying that as long as the ground is plugged into the ground slot that things should be fine?

Sigh.

Did you take the time to actually read what I wrote?

I thought it was simple.

All the outlets in my room are right side up, like little faces. I'm not an electrician though so I don't see how their orientation affects their function.

Unless you are talking about removing the plug and your hand's tendency to touch certain prongs. THAT I know about lol. I was a kid and this plug was stubborn so I was jiggling it back and forth and my hand slipped and touched the one of the prongs. WOW that felt weird.

Listen closely. There will be a test.

If the receptacle is in the'little face' position, then the last prong that could accidently be disconnected is the ground. If it is the opposite, then the FIRST prong to be accidently disconnected is the ground and if there is a short then you have lost your grounding reference even though the other two prongs may be still in connection to the power. The short has no where to go but through you or someone touching a device connected to the circuit.

It may never happen.

But it can.

Are there many interfaces out there that aren't terribly expensive, offering balanced monitor output?

DD, I probably shouldn't post this, but it might help do some s'plainin' of what I think is confuzzeling...

There are a couple of commercial inspectors here in a large state capital city, ( that shall remain nameless to protect the stoopid ), that are calling for duplex outlets to be installed upside down - e.g. Ground UP!

They're indicating that they want them that way, because if anything falls down the wall, that anything metal would strike the ground pin and fail to short hot to neutral. :-? :-? :-? Again, this is only for commercial applications.

As you know, you don't always want to pick silly battles with your inspector, but I found this logic to be so marginally arguable, I've kept my mouth shut.

My inspectors here are of the "correct" orientation of ground pin down, as it makes the ground the last thing to disconnect.

So.... maybe that's where the OP is getting a bit siderailed on duplex orientation... in that maybe he's got a mixture or or sumpin'?

Madmax, couldn't the problem of having something short the pins if it were to come loose be fixed by having the plugs set into the wall slightly further, so that if the come out far enough to have exposed contacts they are no longer connected to the mains?
Like semi-circular shield around the top half so you can still get your hand in to pull it out from the sides... Or something...

Putting plugs in upside down to stop this problem yet creating the hazard of disconnecting the ground seems a little like cutting your nose off to spite your face.