I'd stick with PC personally. Cubase SX 3.0 is a really decent program and easy to learn. ASKvideo has some great Cubase video training CDs very cheap. Lock the door and spend a weekend immersed with them and you'll be rocking. 8-)

Personally I'm a Mac man. This computer I'm typing on was made in 1994 and the OS and box are still rock solid(a little slow by today's standards). The only time I have problems is when I'm using...umm...anyone...anyone...yes you there in the back...?

Errrrrr, Microsoft?

Bingo! Anything by Microsoft, especially Internet Exploder.

Now having said that, I went and turned to the dark side. This year I bought a PC(the fastest available) with Cubase to save some cash, and I'm trucking along and I see: "There has been a serious problem, we have to shut you down. Hope you've hit save every 10 seconds or it will suck to be you when you fire it back up."

And then there is an invitation to send the error message to them via e-mail, but, I'm scared shitless to hook the thing up to the net because of virus issues corrupting the whole thing even worse than it is.

No internet means I can't download anything, or upload anything from the box. So no Digitalfishphones or the like for me. I bought Virtual Bassist and had to take my computer to the store because I couldn't even download the access code.

So if I had to do it all over again I'd look a lot further out into the future and ask myself some tough questions:

Do I want to run the world's most stable OS, using the world's best and most copied interface? Or do I want to run the world's most 'common' OS, regardless of it's stability?

Do I want to hook my computer to the internet to connect to the world, and sleep like a baby at night knowing I have immunity from viruses which could destroy all my hard work? Or do I want to spend my time being vigilant about making sure no viruses, worms, trojan horses, AIDS, the flu, or any other diseases come on board while I'm downloading a program, or upgrade?

You probably know this, but Mac joined up with UNIX, argueably the most stable OS there is, even possibly more so than their own, and they put their killer interface on it. That's like putting a rocket engine in a Ferarri.

Microsoft is too busy cashing your cheques, dominating the internet, and trying to figure out how to stay 'only' 10 steps behind the virus writers to give a rip whether your box is crashing with underwear changes. Kinda like Ford not really fixing the Pinto because it was cheaper to pay off the families of the dead

If it were me, having driven both 'cars' around for a while, I'd suck it up, swallow my pride, eat the extra money, and do it right, and I'd have a picture of a fruit on the side of my screen.

Remember: Buy the best and only cry once!

End of rant.

I shall await the oncoming backlash from the Windoze proponents. I expect my obvious stupidity in expressing this opinion to be thoroughly exposed

Keith

Logic 7 is a beautiful program that run wonderfully on Mac. Make the jump, I doubt you'll regret it.

Get a Mac.

Bas.

i cannot second the move to mac enough.....

you'll be a happier person.... making more music than you ever did.... instead of using your precious time scanning for spyware...

and the bad feeling about the upgrade prices will go away when you see what you get for your money.....

and EVERY piece of software is about the same ragarding upgrades anyway.....

and the abilty to stack computers to get more power works second to none......

a nice little quad G5 will run circles around your old pc.....

Both platforms can be rock solid, if someone has enough knowledge to operate it. At another forum many pro people figured out that bitching about microsoft 99 percent comes from the lack of knowledge, and misuse of product. Regardless of the platform, you can achieve the same result. None of it more or less stable than the other. I work on both platforms, have no problem with it.
Regards Tamas Dragon

"99 percent comes from the lack of knowledge, and misuse of product."

that's the case in 99% of all cases regarding any computer or general equipment trouble.....

the problem here is only that you need more knowhow to run a pc..... and 99% of musicians are exactly not computer geeks

I use multiple pc's, different one for each job. Never had any error messages while running audio or virus issues, but then I was reared on PC's in a hands-inside-the-box kinda way...I'm very keen to have a mac sitting in a corner somewhere just in case though, they are solid and Gates can't have it all his own way.

I think a computer is a computer, some are more stable, some are more flexible....I agree it's probably easier to get it wrong/end up doing hasty backups with PC at the end of the day. I like living a little dangerously.

tamasdragon wrote: Both platforms can be rock solid, if someone has enough knowledge to operate it. At another forum many pro people figured out that bitching about microsoft 99 percent comes from the lack of knowledge, and misuse of product. Regardless of the platform, you can achieve the same result. None of it more or less stable than the other. I work on both platforms, have no problem with it.
Regards Tamas Dragon

Ahhh, so I'm hearing that one has to have a certain amount of specialized knowledge to keep an XP system running? I agree. That is what I have found too. But wait...I don't want to be a frigging computer geek!

"Whoops :D sorry Mr client, I have to shut down and restart everything, oh and that last take was lost. Your time isn't valuable is it?"

I want to record. I want to connect. I want to expore music and other creative endeavours. I want to use my computer for years. I don't want to fix. I don't want to have to send error messages. I don't want to update my virus ware.

And that is the basic difference in mentality we have. Windoze creators figure everybody should not only know how, but have the time to waste fixing their computer, updating virus software daily, and accepting crashes as a part of life. I have never had to worry about any of these issues on my Mac and it's been going strong for 11 years now. And come to think of it, since 1988 I've never had a Mac crap out on me. only get too outdated and slow to be functional. I had also NEVER in my life experienced a crash until I started using Microsoft products. I didnt' even know what they were.

And the arguement against getting a Mac? It's always the old "it's more money." That's compelling. 5 years from now the sting of the price tag will be a distant memory, but the box will still be rocking. People complain about the Mac price, but almost never stability, longevity, OS or interface.

I might sound mad at you, and I apologise for that. I'm really mad at me, for being sucked in. What could I have possibly been thinking?????

To the original poster:

Hmmmmmmmmmm Ferrari or Pinto.... think .... think .... think

Enough fear mongering. Here's the reality of life on a PC as told by someone who uses one, me.

1. I have not lost a single session. Ever. Period. My PC never crashes.
2. The best DAWs are not online. Zero virii, zero problem. In any business "best practice" is to keep critical data offline regardless of platform.
3. There are tons of great, inexpensive firewalls out there. Easy to setup, a cheap router can easily shut out any type of traffic.
4. There are tons of great anti-virus programs around which are cheap, effective, and completely self-maintaining. In many years of daily computing and tons of downloads, I have yet to get a virus and I spend zero time on that issue. My software takes care of everything. You need to run multiple tools, i.e. one cheap recipe would be Zone Alarm with Norton antivirus, Lavasoft Adaware, Spybot Search and Destroy (TeaTimer), and Hijack This. Takes an hour to install and set up all those titles, and they keep themselves updated.
5. It's a ridiculous notion to compare the worst PC with the best Mac. Dollar for dollar PCs outperform Macs. Period. Top PCs do not crash.
6. PCs are easy to fix, inexpensive parts are available everywhere.
7. With the exception of Logic and a couple other titles, PC offers overwhelmingly superior software options.
8. Expanding a PC is cheap and there's a zillion awesome add-ons available.
9. There's infinitely more free stuff available for PCs online.
10. Bill Gates may suck but Steve Jobs is an uber weasel who would slit your throat for a nickel. Let's be realisitic. (Woz rules)

Another thing about PCs which is nice if you like Linux (or other OS) is that you can run dual boot. 8-)

I'm not attacking Mac, I'm just correcting some points about PC. The reality is that my PC is blinding fast, super reliable, and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg. 8-)

I use both and I love to criticise both

Calgary said it vigorously but said it well

and yes ... Woz rules
8-)

Calgary wrote: Enough fear mongering. Here's the reality of life on a PC as told by someone who uses one, me.

1. I have not lost a single session. Ever. Period. My PC never crashes. hmmm... sure if you set it up nicely and never installed anything "fun"
2. The best DAWs are not online. Zero virii, zero problem. In any business "best practice" is to keep critical data offline regardless of platform. to me that's BS.... we live in 2005... the net is here to stay... and i have to be on... and i do not want to waste my clients time and money having to move files around.... i need to send directly from the computer...
3. There are tons of great, inexpensive firewalls out there. Easy to setupif you know how... or pay someone like you to do it, a cheap router can easily shut out any type of traffic.
4. There are tons of great anti-virus programs around which are cheap, effective, and completely self-maintaining. In many years of daily computing and tons of downloads, I have yet to get a virus and I spend zero time on that issue. and you can safely say that this applies to the great majority of pc's?? so what i experince is wrong?? and all the talk in the media is wrong??My software takes care of everything. You need to run multiple tools, i.e. one cheap recipe would be Zone Alarm with Norton antivirus, Lavasoft Adaware, Spybot Search and Destroy (TeaTimer), and Hijack This. Takes an hour to install and set up all those titles, and they keep themselves updated.
5. It's a ridiculous notion to compare the worst PC with the best Mac. i don't... Dollar for dollar PCs outperform Macs. regarding horsepower... maybe.... daily use.... no... exclamation mark!Period. Top PCs do not crash.
6. PCs are easy to fixas i said... i you know what you're doing....., inexpensive parts are available everywhere. the parts inside a mac is standard pc parts.....
7. With the exception of Logic and a couple other titles, PC offers overwhelmingly superior software options. yes and no.....
8. Expanding a PC is cheap and there's a zillion awesome add-ons available. i can't think of anything i would ever neen that i could not have for a mac if i had the money.....
9. There's infinitely more free stuff available for PCs online. yes.... the pc world are not happy about paying for stuff...
10. Bill Gates may suck but Steve Jobs is an uber weasel who would slit your throat for a nickelall the unix geeks say the same about BG. Let's be realisitic.that would be nice.... i'm trying... are you? (Woz rules)

Another thing about PCs which is nice if you like Linux (or other OS) is that you can run dual boot. 8-) linux can run on mac too.... but who would?? it has unix installed already.... and linux is not an audio platform really

I'm not attacking Mac,oh... I'm just correcting some points about PC.not really The reality is that my PC is blinding fast, super reliable, and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg.i'm happy for you.... no really... 8-)

the net is here to stay... and i have to be on... and i do not want to waste my clients time and money having to move files around.... i need to send directly from the computer...

This is a good argument for having two (or more) computers in a professional recording setup. I'm into having both kinds.

Incidentally, I have found ANALOG TAPE to be the most stable "OS" there is and pleases clients a lot more than ANY lil' digital box...hehe

I run a dual boot machine with one hooked up to the net and the other with the web disabled. My comp doesn't crash. Personally, I think having your DAW hooked up to the web is asking for trouble whether it be Mac or PC. That being said, I think the ideal situation is to have both platforms. Certainly the higher end Daws are Macs.

However, it is obvious that Apple is NOT getting the power they need from the current G5s. Not to mention the G5s aren't all that quiet like the G4. When that fan kicks in it's like a meat grinder. The chips are just not performing for them. Not when we have Intel pushing chips beyond 3.5Ghz. This is apparent due to the switch over to Intel by Apple. I had a conversation with a mac rep on the way to T.O. this summer. The main concern in his mind of course was the switch over from a R.I.S.C. based system to S.I.S.C. it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

The thing is now that the first generation of Intel based Macs will probably have stability and compatibility problems until the software companies can port their software for the Intel chips. Until then, using older software will be like running them in a compatability mode. Therefore a loss of power. Bottom line is; sure go Mac but wait a year or two until the transition pains have gone away.

Needless to say the extra power will be welcome.

iznogood wrote: to me that's BS.... we live in 2005... the net is here to stay... and i have to be on... and i do not want to waste my clients time and money having to move files around.... i need to send directly from the computer...

as i said... i you know what you're doing....., inexpensive parts are available everywhere. the parts inside a mac is standard pc parts.....

I could single out other stuff like the Linux comments but that's for another thread

My Audio and Video machines don't go on the net.

Yeah , I'm pedantic and you or a software vendor is not going to change my mind.
It's my computer and My edit suite ... not yours

I have enough computers to get net access if and when the net is available.

You guys in the BIG capital cities think every one have Light-Speed internet, some of us live in a slow-net world at less than 24 and I've never seen 28 ... let alone 56.
and as for broadband :lol: lol
and there are people in this country that don't have reliable net at all.

I'm happy to move files around .... my way

Cheap Mac parts ... mmm ... perhaps you can get me a cheap Mother Board

This to and fro can go on for every and has done so ... for ever.
I've been on this forum for a long time and been Mod of a section and helped many people.
This round about never goes away and never will.

For PCB design I use DOS
For video editing I'm currently on FCP - Mac ... but used to be Avid NT.
Avid express on XP looks tempting

PT LE is currently XP but used to be Mac9.1

Mixplus TDM was Mac7.6 to 9.1
but now HD is on X and soon I may try XP

All my web creation is currently 98 or XP

I recently fired up an Atari 1040 ST to resurrect a very old Midi song.
:shock:
and many more examples
yeah I have a lot of computers
but their total cost still wouldn't add up to what a 2inch 24 or the multi Adats set me back

they are all just computers ... use what ever works !

Calgary sez:

"Enough fear mongering."

I sez:

Three little words man: Y-2-K. Now THAT was fear mongering. :lol:

Boy it sure would take a complete moron, or worse, a whole COMPANY full of complete morons, to create an entire operating system without considering that the clock might some day actually click over to 2000.

If only someone had had the forethought to design that eventuality into their operating system. But who could have such stupendous foresight?

Dude, Windoze bashing isn't fear mongering. It's recreation. Especially because MS is such a big dumb easy easy target. Think of it as fish in a barrel.

As you would say: 8-) 8-) 8-)

Kev sez:

"You guys in the BIG capital cities think every one have Light-Speed internet"

I sez:

Oh yeah? Well I live in the country and I'm right now at a blistering fast...hold on while I check...19,200bps. Wooo Hooo! Beat that suckas!

hueseph sez:

"Personally, I think having your DAW hooked up to the web is asking for trouble whether it be Mac or PC."

I sez:

Except that writing a virus for 5% of the world's computers just doesn't seem to create the kind of 'mass hysteria' the writers are after, so we simply don't need to worry about it. I don't even have virus software.

However, we can be, and oftien are, 'carriers.' Kinda like women with hemophelia. They can't get it, but they can sure pass it on. :lol:

Kev sez:

"This to and fro can go on for every and has done so ... for ever."

I sez:

"It's on a loop!" Jim Carrey, The Truman Show

Hey, by the way, for those advocating multiple computers, which costs less, one Mac, or two or more PC's(one for the net, and one for a DAW)? And didn't the original poster indicate he was going to buy one computer? And if I were only going to buy one computer...well, I've said my piece. Blah blah blah :roll:

Hmmmmm... one Ferrari or a whole GARAGE FULL of Pintos... Ooh that could be nice. And I could get my own mechanic and keep them all running at the saaaaaaame tiiiiiiiiiiime. :wink:

This is fun. Now that I've stirred up the mud, I'll run and hide. tee hee.

Keith

The Ferrari-Pinto metaphor is just uneducated. Anyone with any knowledge at all of how the performance of $3,000 worth of PC compares to $3,000 worth of Mac understands the complete inaccuracy of that analogy.

There are facts and then there are the opinions of people who don't have the facts. The two should obviously not be confused on this issue.

Here's an interesting fact which is easy to confirm and cuts through all this emotional rhetoric. Computer expert and broadcaster Leo LaPorte currently has the most popular podcast on the net, "This Week In Tech". LaPorte has forgotten more about computers than most of us know. LaPorte is a Mac user, however he does *all his audio editing on PC* including for his podcast. Go talk to Leo about Ferraris and Pintos. Many experts who truly understand the technology from the ground up use PC for audio editing for one reason or another.

LaPorte is not the only one, I could cite dozens of similar examples but I'd like to avoid an unrelated side debate so I won't. Just the fact that LaPorte specifcally sets aside his trusty Mac in order to edit audio on PC speaks for itself.

In closing just let me add for the post creator that it's easy to quantify the PC side of this debate, there are tons of benchmarks on Google. The Mac side however is not able to demonstrate clearly this fantastic advantage they supposedly have. A Mac will not "record faster" (???) nor will it neccesarily run more VSTs, crash less, or any of those other unsupported suggestions made here. Period. If you want a Mac, get a Mac, but don't do it because of misinformation. Today's PCs seriously rock and despite the claims of the Mac side, there are a great deal of challenges related with setting up a studio on a Mac, all of which are expensive to solve. 8-)

Calgary wrote: blah blah blah, I'm a filthy whore

Was it hard to say all that with Bill Gates' nuts smacking repeatedly on your chin? Seriously, I know you have a hard-on for PC's, but [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.recordin…"]you yourself say you have no experience with Mac[/]="http://www.recordin…"]you yourself say you have no experience with Mac[/], and despite the fact that Apple apparently molested you as a child, you have the most one-sided arguments ever. You're in the wrong industry to be bashing Macs all day, especially after admitting you don't know anything about them.

Benchmarks mean shit, everyone who "understands the technology from the ground up" knows that. I don't know who Leo LaPorte is, but authority by being a popular 'podcaster' carries about as much weight as being a multi-platinum pop star does for musical knowledge.

Here's a fact, go look it up for yourself. Windows XP, via DirectX, from the ground up, was never designed to handle more than stereo ins and outs. ASIO is a band-aid for that. Here's another fact, with the myriad of manufacturers for every component inside a PC, it's more difficult to get a PC to run stably. Here's a third fact for ya. I run 4 Macs every day. 2 G5's, 1 G4, 1 iBook. In 2 years of daily use, I have never had one crash, freeze, or give me any other problem. Many times I've been running well over 15 seperate programs on them at once. Lets see a PC do that. I also run 2 PC's, one for gaming, which rides a computer more than any audio program. As finely tuned as it is, it still locks up about once a week. Windows is starting to come around a little bit, but you can't argue that OSX, CoreAudio and the entire Mac platform, isn't designed as a professional OS that gets stuff done.

Can you get a PC to run stably? Yes, but the people who bet $100k jobs on their computers use a Mac, and they do it for a reason. Does a Mac cost more than a PC? You bet, and you get what you pay for. Hell, I like PC's, I even build my own gaming rigs, but there's no way I'd use one as a professional audio rig. Getting the BSOD mid-gig is not something I want to deal with.

And another thing. Using 8-) after every post makes you look like a dipshit. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

"Many experts who truly understand the technology from the ground up use PC for audio editing for one reason or another. "

glad we agree..... you REALLY have to understand quite a few things to use a pc for audio use....

"there are a great deal of challenges related with setting up a studio on a Mac, all of which are expensive to solve."

if you mean installing and authorizing plugs fom ik multimedia.... yes

the rest is a piece of cake and is done on a daily basis by complete morons (musicians)....

8-) 8-) :-?

took-the-red-pill wrote: Oh yeah? Well I live in the country and I'm right now at a blistering fast...hold on while I check...19,200bps. Wooo Hooo! Beat that suckas!

coool !
I average between 19600 and 24000bps
but get as low as 16000 and as high as 26400bps
19200bps is good reliable peak travelling ... 8-)

"It's on a loop!" Jim Carrey, The Truman Show

D'oH !!!
of course it is
why didn't I see that
8)

Hmmmmm... one Ferrari or a whole GARAGE FULL of Pintos... Ooh that could be nice.

all Pintos ?
I guess you could have a colour for each day of the week
I'd go for a Van or Truck
then a Fat soft ride gas guzzler ... perhaps a 4WD
then a Small run- about that's easy to park and saves petrol
??
motorcycle
oh
and a British MG type sports car just to leave the bonnet up all the time and tinkering. cos they always break down anyway and you won't do it any damage. it's just a hobby.

:shock:
however
if I could afford the Ferrari ... I think I'd like to have one of them too.
8)

DING!

round three

took-the-red-pill wrote: DING!

round three

You forgot to put in your 8-)

:roll:
later
a bit busy now
day dreaming of that Ferrari
8)

I think you scared him off, hamburger man.

Unfortunately, I too must go, to clean up the puddle of pee on my chair after that 'nut slapping' comment.

You are a bad man

Still round three

Okay, I've kept my head down while you all fight amongst yourselves. I'd like to thank all the people who gave me helpful advice, and for those who didn't- WHATEVER! I was really hoping this would be more than just a PC vs Mac debate, how naive of me!

So my decision is to stick with Logic, buy a second hand Mac 2GHz dual processor while I wait for the Mac/Intel dust to settle.

I am PC literate, use them every day, build them, sell them don't get many problems with them and yes, probably a PC geek, but I really don't want to give up using Logic. I like it, know how to use it, like what they've included in Pro 7 and I like that fact I can continue working on my current projects easily (I hope). I've invested a lot of time and money in the software and don't want to turn my back on it now.

As for using a Mac, it will be a dedicated music computer, just like any other bit of hardware. I'm sure it won't take me long to figure out how to use it.

Thanks again, wish me luck and remember, it's not all about the gear, it's about the music! :wink:

I'm an electronic tech, I work on PC's all day. Work on a PC when I get home is not appealing to me. So a Mac to me is a nobrainer.

The best feature is that Macs have resale value I have allways gotten $500+ for my old systems. But I'm willing to Pay a few hundred bucks more upfront to avoid the research, and knowledge I have to acquire to build a PC.

If money is a problem stay with a PC, or if you are a business finance a quad for about $99.00 a month, and write it off.

8)