Repeatedly LOL.

3 times I think. Maybe 4.

gawd/o_O:D

Enjoyed it a lot. Of course I never worked at that level with artists that famous, but it still took me back to a time that I could personally relate to, when we all shared similar studio memories and workflows, and when musicians actually played together. ;)

It was great to see that amazing Neve console live on

Saw it a while ago. For a guy who could have easily retired and hung on to his nirvana fame, Dave Grohl really stays busy and productive. Neves are still the sound of rock and roll imo. They will stand the test of time over their ssl counterparts. Mainly because the ssl was all about workflow and speed, which daws pick up where they left off. Neve is regarded for its sonics, which current technology has yet to truly match, especially in digital/daw form.

The coolest thing about the whole video is that they still use the console. While it's certainly museum worthy, it's just not as fun to look at as play with. Droooooooling. ;)

I did love the section on the reclamation of the Neve. As an engineer, I really enjoyed that part of the movie. There's certainly no doubt that Neve made a major contribution to the sound of classic rock.

But ... as a musician, arranger and a producer, for me, the biggest enjoyment of the movie, was watching ( and remembering) what it was like to record in those days; when musicians actually worked, played, and recorded together.

We don't see enough of that anymore; as technology has put mini-recording studios into nearly everyone's basements and spare bedrooms, ( too many of them being people who have no business playing or recording to begin with) with workflows centered so much on one person doing it all. It's great that we can work that way - to get ideas down, refine a song and to work out arrangements, but unfortunately, so very often we end up recording finished product that way, too. And in doing it that way, we're missing out on the vibe, the magic, the feel that can only really happen when you get a group of great players working together, each contributing in their own way(s) to the goal of serving a great song on the whole.

Records used to be made this way. Any alternate method wasn't really even discussed, because that way just worked. It was proven, it had a successful track ( no pun intended) record. Whether it was an orchestra backing up one of the famous 50's crooners, or a rock, blues, country or jazz band all playing together, or a group of session cats laying down instrumental backing for a vocal group, there was a certain magic that resulted from an ensemble of great musicians playing at the same time. Groove and pocket came far more naturally, as opposed to it being "forced" or "programmed". And sometimes, little mistakes, those "whoops" moments that were thought to be clams, turned out to be gold. You can't get those kinds of things by doing it all by yourself; you're missing the "magic dust" that comes with hearing how other musicians might approach a part, or the culmination of what a group does. Certainly, the gear was important in order to capture performances in the best ways, but make no mistake, it was the human element that made the best music. Gear doesn't write and perform great music, humans do. ;)

When I was calling in session players for this most recent album, I really gave them a free artistic range to work from. I never told them what I wanted them to play. I might have let them know if there was a certain section I didn't much care for, but it was never due to a specific thing, it was always about how their part was fitting in and working with the rest of the song. And, most of the time, if they played something that didn't quite work, they ended up telling me they wanted to do it over before I had a chance to tell them.

Personally, I never saw ( and still don't see) the point in calling in a particular musician or group of musicians, and based on liking what I'd heard them do on previous works, not letting them be that person or group that I hired.

I called them in because I wanted their approach, their style, their translations to a certain part. There would have been no point in me hiring them to come in, and then explaining to them in great detail as to what I wanted them to play, note for note.
If I was gonna do that, I'd just have done it myself, and I didn't want to do that. I wanted the album to show artistic diversity. I wanted those different flavors and styles and nuances and tones; those things that you can only get by working with other talented artists.

So, I'd set them up, get them comfortable, and let them warm up to the playback as much as they wanted, ( but I was always recording... always. ;) ). I let the player decide how many takes they wanted to do, I let them do certain things over if they wanted, I might suggest certain things, but I would never order them to do anything.

Not one of those 12 or so players ever gave us less than their all. Not one of them "phoned it in". They gave fantastic performances, that served and benefitted the songs in wonderful ways.
(Of course, you need to hire talented players, who have the ability to contribute in a positive way... and, you need to marry the right player to the right song, too).

The album would have turned out to be mediocre - at best - had Terry and I taken on the responsibility of playing everything ourselves. It turned out to be a good album ( and a fun one to work on too) because we had such talented players contributing.

IMHO of course.

That's a good set of points. Like so many people in my generation I started recording myself and my bands and my friends bands, in basements practice spaces and bedrooms. when I started at the studio there was coworkers and assistance involved, and I was very wary of giving up my "absolute control" I had one working by myself as I never mixed with another individual or had somebody else set up at mic. I was very apprehensive about this at first, but I learned to see the upsides of being able to just doublecheck levels, bounce arrangement ideas, and have somebody else do the punch ins well I focused on the performance itself. Well I still prefer to mix by myself in a dark room my apprehension was simply wasted energy and I've grown to like working with other engineers on my projects. We just always reach an agreement that whoever brings in the project has the final say. Overall I think the results have been beneficial, and is always a new trick to be learned.

DonnyThompson, post: 434622, member: 46114 wrote: ... as a musician, arranger and a producer, for me, the biggest enjoyment of the movie, was watching ( and remembering) what it was like to record in those days; when musicians actually worked, played, and recorded together.

I couldn't agree more Donny.

The big takeaways from all the great documentaries that have cropped up over these last few years [Sound City, Muscle Shoals, Wrecking Crew, Motown / Funk Brothers] should be. It's about musical-chemistry and a good song. A great piece of gear in a great room is nice, an engineer/producer who knows how to maximize what they've got (whatever that may be) is even better. Some of the tracking rooms were pretty unremarkable, but they've got something special out of them over and over again. Some of the greatest session players in the world knew they might have to play dozens of takes before they'd get one that was greater than the sum of the parts. Sometimes a third-party producer/engineer can hear that magic take better than the musicians. There is no substitute for great players who have played together often enough to do the musicians'-mind-meld. It's difficult to ruin a good song with a bad recording, it's nearly impossible to make a lousy song sound good - no matter how immaculate the recording is. And what you call a trombone player with a beeper…..

dvdhawk, post: 434635, member: 36047 wrote: It's difficult to ruin a good song with a bad recording, it's nearly impossible to make a lousy song sound good - no matter how immaculate the recording is. And what you call a trombone player with a beeper…..

Amen., Hawk.

I need to clarify that I love digital. Modern technology has given us fantastic tools, and capabilities that would have otherwise been inaccessible to those of us who are serious musicians and writers, and who like to record our own songs.
There are other not-so-good sides to it, too ... obviously some parts that are not as attractive; in that this same technology has also given easy access to those who really have no business writing, recording and releasing music. ( I'm not an elitist, I just don't consider the process of editing, copying and pasting pre-recorded loops, drum tracks and performances to be "music" or art). These same people who are relying on the technology as a substitute for talent; and while digital recording can offer a lot of good things, it can't "make you" a great writer or musician. For as many great tools as digital provides, there is no such thing as an "MMNS" ( Make Me Not Suck) command on any DAW.

Yeah, there's pitch and phrase/rhythmic correction, but those things can't replace the true talent and skill that comes from within a talented artist, someone who has honed their craft on whatever instrument they play, someone who has dedicated and disciplined themselves to rising above mediocrity.

But, the "good old days" weren't always all that good, either ... there were some things about that time that I have no desire to return to; the cost of tape, aligning tape machines, replacing console mods, fighting the ever-present SNR, editing with a grease pencil and a razorblade ... I have no problems with using modern technology in these newer and better ways to achieve the best fidelity possible. And, we had our fair share of "hacks" and completely untalented people then, too... the only real difference now, is that we have a global vehicle from which more crap can be heard - but that doesn't mean that the same amount of untalented wanna-bee's didn't exist then, too. Record store cut-out bins used to be choked with 45 singles of vanity presses, albums too, of some of the worst music, performances and recordings imaginable.

We just didn't hear quite as much of it then as we do now, because in those days it wasn't all that cheap to have a song recorded and pressed, never mind having it distributed so that it could be heard by people other than just your family and friends, so the expense tended to weed-out more of those who were terrible; whereas today, it doesn't cost anything - other than the cost of a computer ( which nearly everyone has anyway), a cheap mic, a cheap I/O, and a basic DAW platform, to record and upload a song, so there's just more garbage available... but there's no more or less the number of untalented people out there. We had just as many then as we do now.

The one thing, the most important thing, IMO, that we seemed to have drifted away from - that we should have held onto for dear life - was what you and I have mentioned... the magic that happens with a group of talented people.
A great song, a great arrangement... This is The Human Element - the natural "drift" in vocal pitch, that one note on guitar, or that one drum fill that wasn't planned, but that ended up being awesome, the emotion, the soul ... the contribution of group of talented individuals - including a great engineer and/or producer, all coming together for the sake of the song, adding their own individual talents; the chops styles, and personal nuances that differ just enough to make the difference between a "good" song and recording - and a great song and recording. It doesn't always take much, either. But it does take talented humans.
A console doesn't create a groove, a drum machine doesn't play in the pocket, or come up with an impromptu but awesome fill, a sample doesn't perform a great take, and a DAW doesn't write an awesome song...

Humans do. ;)

One thing a lot of bands miss, is the fact that they can record much much faster when the basic tracks are layed down live. They can do an ep worth of bed tracks in a weekend. Yeah it might be twice the hourly rate of a basement studio, but overdubbing each instrument isn't exactly quick. It's not as much fun either for me as the engineer either. I prefer to record live no headphones with my bands. Even in a practice space with no massive walls. It's just more natural, it's how we play at shows and at practice every week.

I love the part in the film where Grohl is interviewing Sir Rupert Neve, who is trying to explain to Grohl about preamps and transformer construction...
And Grohl, his face as blank as a deer in the headlights, VO's over the top of the scene, "he must not know that I dropped out of school..." LOL.

I'm getting pretty sick of hearing the, "it's bad because all these people who have no business recording are recording," complaint, followed followed by pining for the good old days.

No. It's good that people who have no business recording can stand up in front of a mic and suck. It's good that people can fix their pitch issues with a computer. It's good that everybody can do it, and not just people with enough discretionary cash. Yes, they/we suck, but that's okay, because a)it's great fun to create music, even if you suck, and b) the people who don't suck will still rise to the top as much as they ever did, and c) every now and again, someone who never before in history could have even dreamed of producing their own music might just come out of the crowd and be great, because they had access to the tools.

I was a photographer in the 80's, when my Hasselblad cost $10K, and we had to pull a Polaroid and wait 60 seconds to find out what happened. And then digital came along, and its arc parallels that of music exactly. Suddenly everybody was a photographer, and had access to tools we could have only dreamed about.

And it is good. Now everybody can create, shoot, edit, learn. They can enhance their images, fix their issues, and learn how to make better images. They're having a hell of a lot of fun. They can in some cases create a better image than the trained photographers. So it is good, and they have every right to do it without some old timer showing up and peeing on their parade.

End of rant. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Yes, Sound City was a hoot, if only as a 90 minute advertisement for Foo Fighters and Dave Grohl. I especially was surprised that this little company scraped together 75K in 1972 dollars(or whatever it was) to buy a Neve built sound board, when you'd think there were other places a fledgling studio would have used it for.

My two red pills.
Keith

I take it that you don't do this for a living...

You've neglected to mention that many of these people who have no business recording are opening up "commercial studios", and are drastically undercutting the rates of professionals who are very good at what they do, using professional gear, with years of experience... all of which adds up to a quality that Joe Blow and his Tascam pre, Samson USB mic, a free copy of S1, and a folder filled with cracked plugs can't deliver - but that doesn't matter, because he's only 8 bucks an hour. They are also flooding the world with recordings that sound like crap, lowering the bar of quality to the lowest possible common denominator, but that's okay too, because the client only paid a hundred bucks for ten songs.

You can be sick of hearing it ... your opinion is duly noted, and given the proper amount of respect and weight sufficient to your own extensive experience as a professional commercial recording facility engineer and owner.

IMHO of course.
- "old timer".

took-the-red-pill, post: 434694, member: 21836 wrote: No. It's good that people who have no business recording can stand up in front of a mic and suck.

Well somebody has to fill the quota on all those reality singing shows...:ROFLMAO:

[MEDIA=soundcloud]ric3xrt/caroline-opus-3-1
recorded this at Soundcity, was done for a Marshall Amp Contest...... I was lucky enough to record with two of my bands, once in 87 and then again with a new band in 88, place smelled like the back room at CBGB's but it was fun, I did some hired gun work there in 05, Miss the place. Where there better sounding places , yeap...but it was a piece of history.

Pretty freakin cool man!!

ric3xrt, post: 434970, member: 47701 wrote: Where there better sounding places , yeap...but it was a piece of history.

Well, from what I've heard and read about, SC had its own vibe, its own "sound"... between the Neve desk, tape machines, and the live room(s) -(particularly for drums), and, I don't think we can leave out the engineers, either - who had their own individual mixing chops - there's no doubt that SC recorded some pretty great-sounding albums.

My good friend Jonah Koslen tracked all the songs for his band's (Breathless) second EMI album at SC, and he's said that the place definitely had a "funkier" feel to it; in that you never really felt like you could take your shoes off LOL - but he also said that none of that really mattered when you walked down the hall towards the studio with all the gold and platinum albums hanging on the walls. ;)

But many other studios had their own sound as well... not really better, just different, but still of exceptional quality:

Abbey Road ( London) - Beatles, Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, LSO
Olympic ( London) - Hendrix, The Who, The Stones, The Beatles
Trident ( London) - Queen, Peter Gabriel, Bee Gees, Thin Lizzy
Criteria (Miami) - Bee Gees, Bob Seger, Michael Jackson, Abba
Caribou ( Colorado) - Billy Joel, Elton John, Chicago, Frank Zappa
Universal/Western ( L.A.) ( and would eventually become Ocean Way) - Beach Boys, Sinatra, Phil Spector
The Hit Factory (NYC) - and later they bought Criteria for their Miami location) - Springsteen, John Lennon, Talking Heads, Stevie Wonder
Electric Lady (NYC)- AC/DC, The Clash, Hall & Oates, U2
Le Studio ( Quebec) - Bee Gees, Rush, April Wine, Cat Stevens, The Police

Countless great-sounding records were made at all of those places.

So, I'm not sure that "best" is the right word to use?

IMHO of course

d.

When I 1st walked thru there Bill (Drescher I think that was his name) , pointed over to the couch as I sat down, He smiles, and says I caught (name withheld), banging some groupie there last night.....
my little recording doesn't do SC any justice, that was copied off of a master tape raw, no compression, no reverb. actually I think that was the 1st take of 6 , and the only section of the tape that was useable. 61 Jazz bass with Hi-A pickups , thru a Yamaha PB1 pre , feeding a peavey CS 400,( I think it was a 400) , I do remember it being a peavey Power amp. and the cab was a Fender 4x12, the funky one where the speakers tilted towards each other. I took up 4 channels ..... two mic'ed , and the main Output of the PB1 and the Hi out, with everything under 400hz rolled off of the hi out.
Muscle Shoals, was another great studio , ..................... soon there won't be any, and I think the world will be a sadder place for it.

DonnyThompson, post: 435002, member: 46114 wrote: Abbey Road ( London) - Beatles, Pink Floyd, Alan Parsons, LSO
Olympic ( London) - Hendrix, The Who, The Stones, The Beatles
Trident ( London) - Queen, Peter Gabriel, Bee Gees, Thin Lizzy
Criteria (Miami) - Bee Gees, Bob Seger, Michael Jackson, Abba
Caribou ( Colorado) - Billy Joel, Elton John, Chicago, Frank Zappa
Universal/Western ( L.A.) ( and would eventually become Ocean Way) - Beach Boys, Sinatra, Phil Spector
The Hit Factory (NYC) - and later they bought Criteria for their Miami location) - Springsteen, John Lennon, Talking Heads, Stevie Wonder
Electric Lady (NYC)- AC/DC, The Clash, Hall & Oates, U2
Le Studio ( Quebec) - Bee Gees, Rush, April Wine, Cat Stevens, The Police

Amazing list!

Let's not forget places like Mushroom and The Warehouse in Vanc. B.C. and AIR London.....

Never heard of mushroom studio. Sounds fun tho ;)

Google it. Very busy for many many years and a great read on its history. Its now in Toronto.

Davedog, post: 435025, member: 4495 wrote: Let's not forget places like Mushroom and The Warehouse in Vanc. B.C. and AIR London.....

It wasn't my intention to ignore those other studios, I was just giving a quick sampling of some other famous rooms, off the top of my head as they came to me...

Of course there were many others; it was the "golden age" of recording - unlike today, where only a smattering of "real" studios still exist.

More studios on the "If these walls could talk" list:
(feel free to add to the list)

Capitol Records ( L.A.) - Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Stan Kenton, Louis Prima, Kingston Trio
Motown/Hitsville (Detroit) - all the 60's Motown acts - Temptations, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson
Stax (Memphis) - Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin, Booker T & The M.G.'s, Isaac Hayes, Sam & Dave, Albert King
Sun ( Memphis) - Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis
Chess (Chicago) - Bo Diddly, Muddy Waters, Rolling Stones, Etta James
CRC (Cleveland Recording Co., Cleveland) - Grand Funk, James Gang, The O'Jays, The Pretenders, Devo, The Cleveland Orchestra
Metalworks (Mississauga/Toronto) - Triumph, David Bowie, Anne Murray, Rush, Prince
Eastern Sound ( Yorkville/Toronto) - Gordon Lightfoot, Anne Murray, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Elton John, Dionne Warwick
RCA ( Nashville) - Willie Nelson, The Everly Brothers, Chet Atkins, Floyd Cramer, Elvis Presley
Bearsville ( Woodstock, NY) - 10cc, Todd Rundgren, Bonny Raitt, John Sebastian, NY Dolls, The Pretenders
Sigma Sound (Philadelphia) - the classic "Philly Soul Sound" - acts produced by Thom Bell; a producer who was a pioneer in "that" sound; The Spinners, The Stylistics, The Delfonics; Sigma also pioneered the "blue-eyed soul" sound; artists like Todd Rundgren, Hall & Oates, and Bobby Caldwell

It's amazing to look at lists like these and realize that, while there are a few of these studios are still around, most are actually gone now - And we ask ourselves, how can it be that so many of these great rooms, having such a rich history no longer exist?
It's sad that so many are empty, or in some cases, even completely vaporized; now empty lots, or parking garages, or condos. Most folded due to dwindling business and lower production budgets, or because the original owners and operators are retired, or have passed away. Some were the victims of fires, some moved, or closed up completely, because the once-pleasant locations that they originally occupied are now bad sections of town to be in.

Some have become museums - Hitsville, Chess, RCA - allowing us a look back at a time when studios were instrumental in forming the sounds and styles that have since become famous.

I don't think we'll ever see an era like this again... call it 1950 to 1985 (or so)... when engineers set up real mics, sat at consoles with producers, capturing the sound of musicians all playing together; recording songs that were well-crafted and arranged.

So many hits today are now composed and recorded on laptops, or iPads, thru headphones; pre recorded libraries of loops, beats and samples are thrown together in places like airport lounges and hotel rooms, and then are given to someone who is a Pro Tools "wizard", who has a "formula", a track record of success in turning out the latest and greatest generic-sounding pop songs, all of which sound so similar in texture, both in production and "sound".

While there are of course exceptions (thankfully); most songs aren't really recorded anymore, nor are they "mixed" in the traditional sense either... they are edited - using pre-recorded loops, samples and drum tracks, auto-tuned and rhythmically corrected to a pitch-perfect, frame accurate, metronomic, robotic style, and then simply copy-pasted, over and over again - and edited to "perfection"... often to the extent that any trace of human soul and frailty are cut out and wiped away completely.

All these famous studios ( including the ones that Dave mentioned) had their own vibes, their own "character", and while a lot of that was because of the gear they had, most of it was because of actual people - those talented performers, musicians, writers, engineers, arrangers and producers - all coming together to achieve the same goal, all contributing their talents towards making great music.

The smaller these modern "studios" get, the less number of creative people are involved, and the less number of people, the more narrow the focus of the music and the "sound" becomes.

And, in the interest of full disclosure and honesty on my part, I've been guilty of the exact same thing. I too have engineered and produced music that sounds narrow in scope. It's difficult to not fall into that trap these days, with the advent of the format and the tools we have available to us. I try to use real musicians on as much as I can - but budgets get tight, and record sales aren't like they used to be, when you could be assured that your outgoing costs could be recouped.
I'm not making excuses though... I am guilty.

Although, I do feel blessed that I was of a generation and at a time when recording studios still recorded real musicians and ensembles; when the focus was on the talent and the creativity of a group, instead of all being founded in the "formula of one".

FWIW ;)
-d.

We need to petition Slate Digital to make a virtual room simulator of all these great rooms...

Imagine that...Slate Virtual Room Simulator...lol;)

- They are probably already onto it...hey Steven if you are reading this, I'll go you halves...:D

But it's not just the rooms... nor was it just the gear... it was talented musicians, who had their own styles, and, it was those individuals who were sitting in the Skipper's Chair ... the "Helmsmen", if you will... steering the vessel towards the best musical fidelity possible.

So, until someone manages to invent a virtual Keith Olsen, Bruce Swedien, Tom Dowd, Thom Bell, Sam Phillips, Bill Putnam, Geoff Emerick, Alan Parsons, Roger Nichols, Hugh Padgham, Bill Szymczyk, Russ Terrana ....

;)

DonnyThompson, post: 435037, member: 46114 wrote: But it's not just the rooms... nor was it just the gear... it was talented musicians, who had their own styles, and, it was those individuals who were sitting in the Skipper's Chair ... the "Helmsmen", if you will... steering the vessel towards the best musical fidelity possible.

So, until someone manages to invent a virtual Keith Olsen, Bruce Swedien, Tom Dowd, Thom Bell, Sam Phillips, Bill Putnam, Geoff Emerick, Alan Parsons, Roger Nichols, Hugh Padgham, Bill Szymczyk, Russ Terrana ....

;)

These are the people who's work I have studied for years.

Sean G, post: 435034, member: 49362 wrote: We need to petition Slate Digital to make a virtual room simulator of all these great rooms...

Imagine that...Slate Virtual Room Simulator...lol;)

- They are probably already onto it...hey Steven if you are reading this, I'll go you halves...:D

Ocean way has a pluggin that does his for their room. Complete with variable mic positions !!!! Impulse response capability is available in the few convolution reverbs I've used.

DonnyThompson, post: 435033, member: 46114 wrote: It wasn't my intention to ignore those other studios, I was just giving a quick sampling of some other famous rooms, off the top of my head as they came to me...

Of course there were many others; it was the "golden age" of recording - unlike today, where only a smattering of "real" studios still exist.

More studios on the "If these walls could talk" list:
(feel free to add to the list)

Capitol Records ( L.A.) - Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, Judy Garland, Stan Kenton, Louis Prima, Kingston Trio
Motown/Hitsville (Detroit) - all the 60's Motown acts - Temptations, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson
Stax (Memphis) - Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin, Booker T & The M.G.'s, Isaac Hayes, Sam & Dave, Albert King
Sun ( Memphis) - Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis
Chess (Chicago) - Bo Diddly, Muddy Waters, Rolling Stones, Etta James
CRC (Cleveland Recording Co., Cleveland) - Grand Funk, James Gang, The O'Jays, The Pretenders, Devo, The Cleveland Orchestra
Metalworks (Mississauga/Toronto) - Triumph, David Bowie, Anne Murray, Rush, Prince
Eastern Sound ( Yorkville/Toronto) - Gordon Lightfoot, Anne Murray, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Elton John, Dionne Warwick
RCA ( Nashville) - Willie Nelson, The Everly Brothers, Chet Atkins, Floyd Cramer, Elvis Presley
Bearsville ( Woodstock, NY) - 10cc, Todd Rundgren, Bonny Raitt, John Sebastian, NY Dolls, The Pretenders
Sigma Sound (Philadelphia) - the classic "Philly Soul Sound" - acts produced by Thom Bell; a producer who was a pioneer in "that" sound; The Spinners, The Stylistics, The Delfonics; Sigma also pioneered the "blue-eyed soul" sound; artists like Todd Rundgren, Hall & Oates, and Bobby Caldwell

It's amazing to look at lists like these and realize that, while there are a few of these studios are still around, most are actually gone now - And we ask ourselves, how can it be that so many of these great rooms, having such a rich history no longer exist?
It's sad that so many are empty, or in some cases, even completely vaporized; now empty lots, or parking garages, or condos. Most folded due to dwindling business and lower production budgets, or because the original owners and operators are retired, or have passed away. Some were the victims of fires, some moved, or closed up completely, because the once-pleasant locations that they originally occupied are now bad sections of town to be in.

Some have become museums - Hitsville, Chess, RCA - allowing us a look back at a time when studios were instrumental in forming the sounds and styles that have since become famous.

I don't think we'll ever see an era like this again... call it 1950 to 1985 (or so)... when engineers set up real mics, sat at consoles with producers, capturing the sound of musicians all playing together; recording songs that were well-crafted and arranged.

So many hits today are now composed and recorded on laptops, or iPads, thru headphones; pre recorded libraries of loops, beats and samples are thrown together in places like airport lounges and hotel rooms, and then are given to someone who is a Pro Tools "wizard", who has a "formula", a track record of success in turning out the latest and greatest generic-sounding pop songs, all of which sound so similar in texture, both in production and "sound".

While there are of course exceptions (thankfully); most songs aren't really recorded anymore, nor are they "mixed" in the traditional sense either... they are edited - using pre-recorded loops, samples and drum tracks, auto-tuned and rhythmically corrected to a pitch-perfect, frame accurate, metronomic, robotic style, and then simply copy-pasted, over and over again - and edited to "perfection"... often to the extent that any trace of human soul and frailty are cut out and wiped away completely.

All these famous studios ( including the ones that Dave mentioned) had their own vibes, their own "character", and while a lot of that was because of the gear they had, most of it was because of actual people - those talented performers, musicians, writers, engineers, arrangers and producers - all coming together to achieve the same goal, all contributing their talents towards making great music.

The smaller these modern "studios" get, the less number of creative people are involved, and the less number of people, the more narrow the focus of the music and the "sound" becomes.

And, in the interest of full disclosure and honesty on my part, I've been guilty of the exact same thing. I too have engineered and produced music that sounds narrow in scope. It's difficult to not fall into that trap these days, with the advent of the format and the tools we have available to us. I try to use real musicians on as much as I can - but budgets get tight, and record sales aren't like they used to be, when you could be assured that your outgoing costs could be recouped.
I'm not making excuses though... I am guilty.

Although, I do feel blessed that I was of a generation and at a time when recording studios still recorded real musicians and ensembles; when the focus was on the talent and the creativity of a group, instead of all being founded in the "formula of one".

FWIW ;)
-d.

Had no idea James gang recorded in Cleveland! Thats why I love talking to you guys. Music is such a vast world.

May I also add some 'no name' studios of which I'm too lazy to look up.

Paul Simon did a record at one I belive if Africa with a group of local African studio musicians. I want to say Graceland, maybe rymin' Simon?? Not sure, but whatever studio they were in was big and fairly live. You can really hear/feel the air. They recorded live. Killer bassist. There's a documentary on it, I belive it was on Netflix, because it was an anniversary of the album. They reunitied and did a performance in Africa. I reccomend anyone into music watch this very cool documentary.

Also the studio that did bob Marley in Jamaca, left its mark on the world, and is largely unsung. Could name the studio, or engineer of the top of my head.

And then of course, Normandy Sound, in warren RI, which gave us new kids on the block! Lmao!!This one is particularly close to my heart ;)

kmetal, post: 435076, member: 37533 wrote: Had no idea James gang recorded in Cleveland!

Ya. Joe Walsh had his own band at the time, "The Measles", who were all students at Kent State... they came up playing the dive bars along Water Street.

The James Gang - Jim Fox and Tom Criss, were Cleveland guys; the band was already established, but had lost their guitar player - Glen Schwartz - when he left for California to start another band, "Pacific Gas and Electric".
Walsh and Schwartz were friends, and so he approached them as a possible replacement, and was quickly added - this was probably around '68 or so - at which point they hooked up with engineer and producer Bill (pronounced "sim-zik"), who was engineering and producing for ABC/Dunhill Records at the time - artists like BB King and J Geils.

Criss left the band in '69, and Dale Peters stepped in on bass. In 1970, they released the album, James Gang Rides Again, which had songs like Funk 49, Tend My Garden and There I Go Again.
They did a lot of concert openers for bigger acts - Cream, The Who, The Kinks and Led Zep - which brought them a lot of attention, and helped to fuel their success.

In '73, Walsh went on to form and play in the band "Barnstorm", ( songs like Turn To Stone and Walk Away) and eventually went solo with "The Smoker You Drink The Player You Get", also produced by Szymczyk, although he continued working with former Barnstorm members Kenny Passarelli on bass and Joe Vitali on drums as his band on that album, and which included the now iconic Rocky Mountain Way, along with Meadows and Dreams. The album was recorded at Caribou Ranch, where Szymczyk had been frequently working.

And unless you've been living in a cave for the last 30 years, I think everyone pretty much knows what happened with Walsh from there. ;)

I still bump into Joe Vitali from time to time... we've worked several sessions together over the years - on both sides of the glass - although it's been quite some time since.

Here endeth the lesson... well, this lesson anyway. :) LOL

FWIW
-d.

Yes Donny, the definition of "professional recording studio" has followed the same arc as "professional photographer." You don't have to be as good, or as careful because pitch correction and photo shop will save your hide. So a lot of under-trained people have hung out their shingle. And a lot of good careers have been lost because of the cheapening it brings. There used to be colour separators and printers and photo labs, and sellers of high end 2" tape and now...poof. It will only get worse.

It was this statement that got my back up:

DonnyThompson, post: 434622, member: 46114 wrote: technology has put mini-recording studios into nearly everyone's basements and spare bedrooms, ( too many of them being people who have no business playing or recording to begin with)

Things change, and sometimes it sucks, but to say people have no business even participating in the act of recording doesn't help anyone.

So how much of "it" is the room, the engineer, the producer, the board, the gear? It would seem that producer has something to do with it, but in not so sure about the rest.

With some artists, I don't think I would matter who was behind the desk, or where they recorded, or what gear they used. They'd be great either way: Knopfler, Tedeschi Trucks, Otis, Dave Matthews, etc.

I read an interview with Page where he said he liked to switch up producers and engineers so nobody could say it was somebody else that was responsible for Zep's sound. He wanted it to be known that it was him.

With others, the producer/engineer is integral: Parsons on Dark Side, Lanois on Emmy Lou's, Wrecking Ball and Dylan's Time Out Of Mind.

Remember that album Def Leppard produced themselves instead of having done by Mutt? Exactly. Me neither. Couldn't even tell you what it was called.

...and so it goes.

I will wade in here for a moment. On the subjective premise that it has to do with the room and the gear....well, yes and no......there's nothing like a great sounding room with gear matched to capturing the "sound" of the room. It's also is a bonus if the gear is all in excellent working condition, a phenomena that plagued even the best rooms throughout history. The room's that got a majority of the work in music's golden age of recording had budgets and staff on duty to repair and maintain these magic boxes.

BUT. The artist or the artist/producer team had to have a vision and the artist/performer had to be able to deliver the goods and either be skilled enough to know what goes where when writing an arrangement or the intelligence to hire someone who does if they don't. These magical rooms with all that gear weren't anything more than the vessel to operate within at any given project. So, how were they chosen? This would seem to be an interesting find if its at all available....some interviews give these answers and others simply don't dwell on this. We ALL know why the Beatles recorded at Abbey Road.......don't we? A more iconic pairing has not been seen before or since. What if one of the other record companies the Beatles demo stuff was shopped at had thought for a minute that this was something special? NONE of the studios at that time had anything close to the complete infrastructure of EMI. And without the SOUND of that first record, seriously, look at everything released in 1963/64 and find me ONE SINGLE ARTIST that had a sound like that........without that sound and the subsequent thing we know now as Beatlemania, would EMI have relaxed the rules as much as they eventually did just for The Beatles? I think a lot of other artist's choice on where they made their magic was through an interconnection of people places and things. Very few if any artists who became major contributors to the pantheon of musical history, chose a studio blindly out of the phone book. A great number of works of art landed where they did simply because the rooms were all booked by others at the time needed to record.

I mean that as an example of why it is important for people of all genres, walks of life, LEVELS OF ARTISTRY, to have access to any kind of recording equipment their heart and budgets desire. There may be another Beatles out there......perhaps.....

I'm sorry that the industry has eaten itself alive....its exactly what has happened. The Godlike excess of the process in the late 70's and 80's spelled doom for itself. The way the companies were and still are, ran. The music business was a popular place for certain financeers to launder ill-gotten-gains. Still is.

Yes, the advent of technology has put people in a 'professional role' that for the most part they have no business or training to be part of, and I'm sure that the artist in a lot of us cries out loudly against this. It's our own perception of the battle for recognition and the dimming of our own ability to be a creative force among all the flotsam and jetsam washing up on the shores of this instant-gratification'd generation we find ourselves in. Tough. It is what it is. If you're good at what you do and you forge onward simply out of the love of what you do and what you create, then you are holding yourself true to your vision. Bemoaning the whys and wherefores of the 'business' being cheapened and not stopping at your door for work is not a testament of anything but the luck of the draw. Artists will obviously go where they can afford to go. If these same artists aren't concerned with quality then their product will suffer. The dregs of this are evident on any public access playlist you can find.

The small studio owner has been forced to reconsider their position in the grand scheme of things. If you aren't keeping the lights on enough to maintain a lease and a bunch of gear then you have to make tough choices. One choice is to look at your business model and figure out what you can be competitive in in the market in your area. There's always a niche. However, if it gives you the heebie-geebies to record Pop princess wanna-bes with their parents producing, then thats a choice. Some will have to be very honest with the limitations of their space. Saying that you'd love to record all the big bands in town when you are only equipped to handle a singer songwriter doing 2-4 tracks at a time might be a stretch. HEY! I can do television voice-overs and music production!! You'd better be completely up-to-date with your digital system and have sync to video capabilities of the higest order and be faster than someone else that already does this....and believe me there's a lot in every town. I know a few myself. First, they are superb engineers and second, they can all arrange for orchestras. I would hire them but never compete with em....

This has become a niche market. A lot of the older guys give up completely. So sets of skills honed for years are wasted. Others sell off most of their gear because updating for what seems like a chance-in-hell to ever succeed seems futile. Then they bitch and pine for the old days and blame the economy and the aliens for their plight. A wise man once said to me, "Doing what you love for work is like not working at all"

One final thought. Look around your local area. How many "vanity studios" can you find or know about? I'm not talking someplace with its shingle out for business....I'm talking Dr.X#&@CC who has enough money to equip a build-out on this property and makes records with his musician friends on the weekends....Maybe plays in an 'oldies' rock band.....Or guys like me who don't have an overhead and just record what they want when they want.

There's a bunch ..... One thing I'm finding is if you put out a couple of recordings a year and take a LOT of time making them perfect, then someone is going to notice. That someone could be a pro group, perhaps a step above local who "just can't get the sound they want" from their friends studio. Thats when being the Producer matters more than anything else. And that's My niche.

Davedog, post: 435029, member: 4495 wrote: Google it. Very busy for many many years and a great read on its history. Its now in Toronto.

Ya they pulled the board out of Mushroom many years ago and shipped it to Toronto. The studio has flipped hands many times over, it's currently decommissioned but being used on the downlow for some music stuff but it isn't the same. At one point I think the band Marcy Playground or Matchbox 20 bought it.... I only vaguely remember something like that maybe 12 years ago. It's just a stone throw away from my house and I drive by everyday. Some big albums were done there and parts of albums -- particularly Zeppelin II

Davedog, post: 435728, member: 4495 wrote: I will wade in here for a moment. On the subjective premise that it has to do with the room and the gear....well, yes and no......there's nothing like a great sounding room with gear matched to capturing the "sound" of the room. It's also is a bonus if the gear is all in excellent working condition, a phenomena that plagued even the best rooms throughout history. The room's that got a majority of the work in music's golden age of recording had budgets and staff on duty to repair and maintain these magic boxes.

BUT. The artist or the artist/producer team had to have a vision and the artist/performer had to be able to deliver the goods and either be skilled enough to know what goes where when writing an arrangement or the intelligence to hire someone who does if they don't. These magical rooms with all that gear weren't anything more than the vessel to operate within at any given project. So, how were they chosen? This would seem to be an interesting find if its at all available....some interviews give these answers and others simply don't dwell on this. We ALL know why the Beatles recorded at Abbey Road.......don't we? A more iconic pairing has not been seen before or since. What if one of the other record companies the Beatles demo stuff was shopped at had thought for a minute that this was something special? NONE of the studios at that time had anything close to the complete infrastructure of EMI. And without the SOUND of that first record, seriously, look at everything released in 1963/64 and find me ONE SINGLE ARTIST that had a sound like that........without that sound and the subsequent thing we know now as Beatlemania, would EMI have relaxed the rules as much as they eventually did just for The Beatles? I think a lot of other artist's choice on where they made their magic was through an interconnection of people places and things. Very few if any artists who became major contributors to the pantheon of musical history, chose a studio blindly out of the phone book. A great number of works of art landed where they did simply because the rooms were all booked by others at the time needed to record.

I mean that as an example of why it is important for people of all genres, walks of life, LEVELS OF ARTISTRY, to have access to any kind of recording equipment their heart and budgets desire. There may be another Beatles out there......perhaps.....

I'm sorry that the industry has eaten itself alive....its exactly what has happened. The Godlike excess of the process in the late 70's and 80's spelled doom for itself. The way the companies were and still are, ran. The music business was a popular place for certain financeers to launder ill-gotten-gains. Still is.

Yes, the advent of technology has put people in a 'professional role' that for the most part they have no business or training to be part of, and I'm sure that the artist in a lot of us cries out loudly against this. It's our own perception of the battle for recognition and the dimming of our own ability to be a creative force among all the flotsam and jetsam washing up on the shores of this instant-gratification'd generation we find ourselves in. Tough. It is what it is. If you're good at what you do and you forge onward simply out of the love of what you do and what you create, then you are holding yourself true to your vision. Bemoaning the whys and wherefores of the 'business' being cheapened and not stopping at your door for work is not a testament of anything but the luck of the draw. Artists will obviously go where they can afford to go. If these same artists aren't concerned with quality then their product will suffer. The dregs of this are evident on any public access playlist you can find.

The small studio owner has been forced to reconsider their position in the grand scheme of things. If you aren't keeping the lights on enough to maintain a lease and a bunch of gear then you have to make tough choices. One choice is to look at your business model and figure out what you can be competitive in in the market in your area. There's always a niche. However, if it gives you the heebie-geebies to record Pop princess wanna-bes with their parents producing, then thats a choice. Some will have to be very honest with the limitations of their space. Saying that you'd love to record all the big bands in town when you are only equipped to handle a singer songwriter doing 2-4 tracks at a time might be a stretch. HEY! I can do television voice-overs and music production!! You'd better be completely up-to-date with your digital system and have sync to video capabilities of the higest order and be faster than someone else that already does this....and believe me there's a lot in every town. I know a few myself. First, they are superb engineers and second, they can all arrange for orchestras. I would hire them but never compete with em....

This has become a niche market. A lot of the older guys give up completely. So sets of skills honed for years are wasted. Others sell off most of their gear because updating for what seems like a chance-in-hell to ever succeed seems futile. Then they bitch and pine for the old days and blame the economy and the aliens for their plight. A wise man once said to me, "Doing what you love for work is like not working at all"

One final thought. Look around your local area. How many "vanity studios" can you find or know about? I'm not talking someplace with its shingle out for business....I'm talking Dr.X#&@CC who has enough money to equip a build-out on this property and makes records with his musician friends on the weekends....Maybe plays in an 'oldies' rock band.....Or guys like me who don't have an overhead and just record what they want when they want.

There's a bunch ..... One thing I'm finding is if you put out a couple of recordings a year and take a LOT of time making them perfect, then someone is going to notice. That someone could be a pro group, perhaps a step above local who "just can't get the sound they want" from their friends studio. Thats when being the Producer matters more than anything else. And that's My niche.

Iv'e never heard it put so well...Dave (Davedog ) you havce summed it up (pardon the pun) in a nutshell.

This is the type of attitude that may just keep this business alive and kicking

Bump.....

good news! Sound City has been reopened. whoo-hoo!

from Wikipedia

"The studio was officially closed to the public from 2011 through 2016, but in early 2017 a partnership was formed between Sandy Skeeter (President of Sound City Inc. and daughter of Tom Skeeter) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivier_Chastan"]Olivier Chastan in order to reopen the studio. Sound City is now the home of two Helios Type 69 consoles and continues to utilize classic analog recording techniques in many of its productions (though a Pro Tools rig has been installed in each studio, for the convenience of its clients)."

Great news. Love the Helios.

I sincerely hope they can make it. In the years since they closed their doors, many other pro rooms have closed theirs as well. I believe they may have a niche, based partly on their location and partly on their legacy...the way it would work would be to have some big acts come there to record again. But the studio biz isn't what it used to be, there's been a lot of water under the bridge since they closed and Grohl bought the famous Neve.
I've never worked on a Helios desk, but their reputation is stellar in the industry. Hopefully it -'and the staff - can attract enough clientele to make it worth it.

DonnyThompson, post: 451763, member: 46114 wrote: But the studio biz isn't what it used to be, there's been a lot of water under the bridge since they closed and Grohl bought the famous Neve.
I've never worked on a Helios desk, but their reputation is stellar in the industry.

I heard some producer saying the mixer in place was a joke. I don't know if they were talking about the Helios or another desk they just put in place. :confused:

no that isn't the Helios they were talking about. Fairfax studio recently occupied the rooms and they had a couple of old ALTEC mixers with separate monitor systems there. cool boards but pretty antiquated. they were built for 4 track to mono. that's why they had separate monitor mixers.

if it were me i'd be looking for another Neve.

Kurt Foster, post: 451829, member: 7836 wrote: no that isn't the Helios they were talking about. Fairfax studio recently occupied the rooms and they had a couple of old ALTEC mixers with separate monitor systems there. cool boards but pretty antiquated. they were built for 4 track to mono. that's why they had separate monitor mixers.

if it were me i'd be looking for another Neve.

Great info Kurt ! Not all the old stuff were good then and good for todays need, that's for sure. Looks cool tho !