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Mad John 17 April 2002

I am looking for the best 24 HD recorder that is offered. The only ones I know are Mackie, Alesis and Tascam.

How are these units in comparison and are there better machines out there?

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" - Edgar Varese - 1921

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anonymous Thu, 04/18/2002 - 06:32

Originally posted by John Thomas Milhorat:
I am looking for the best 24 HD recorder that is offered.

RADAR is designed for reliability, sound quality and ease of use. RADAR does not crash and has won every listening test it has been subjected to. It has a very dedicated user interface and it is very easy to use. You can go to http://www.recordingtheworld.com for more information.

anonymous Thu, 04/18/2002 - 07:28

Barry,
Are we positive about no crashes?
I'm really considering RADAR 24 Project mostly for live recordings and i'm concerned about how reliable is the machine in a " no second take' situation. Is really that solid ? Project looks like a great deal and this is really my only issue at the moment.
Thanks. Jo

anonymous Thu, 04/18/2002 - 08:27

Dear John.

Yep, All the usual suspects: Mackie, Alesis, iZRadar, Tascam and that's about it. Maybe someone will point out that Fostex have one also.

Perhaps you'll get an ol' Analogue Neck come in and say "ALL DIGITAL AUDIO WORKSTATIONS ARE CRAP!!!

For your needs, who knows - that might be the case.

As you know, there's a lot that can go wrong with Digital Audio - still.

Quality Digital Audio is not cheap.

a.What do you want to do with it?
..Funny question I know.
b.What do you want out of it?
..Even funnier question.

This is what I'm doing:

iZ RADAR is pretty much the coolest out of this bunch (IMHO). But so's this -

First criteria for Stedel:

An HDR must above all else: ROCK
If it doesn't..there's not much point.

Here's the warm up band:

R: Reliable.
O: stands for a dedicated OS designed specifically for Audio. One that doesn't have to compromise itself through some in-elegant symbiotic relationship with a Mac or PC., and comes with a sleek Specific Ergonomic Design Controller. Ultra-low-jitter clock circuits, and ultra-low distortion. Powerful fundamental Editing tools.
C COOL CLOCK: A Clock system that exceeds AES specification for a measurement reference clock, regardless of sync scource Sync to video, word clock, AES or internal. The power supply switches on the sample clock to eliminate interference patterns.
K Kicks the proverbial, mixing 16, 20, and 24-bit clips in the same project.

And, like the ghostly spirit of Music's muse -
elusive - as it's none of the above brands.

Currently I'm doing a field survey on it's ROCK factor. It's looking like it's gonna be sitting in my studio.But some of the users I've talked to don't think ROCK is an adequate term to describe it.I've asked them if they'd prefer: "This system JAZZ'S", or "This system CLASSICALS" or "This system MOVIESOUNDTRACKS"
Because it does all four, and apparently better than anything else they've used.

All this of course, doesn't mean that it wouldn't, or shouldn't: - ROCK

It just means maybe they should.
QUOTE:
I'm listening to a band and a version of a song they do:
Concrete Blonde- Andrew Prieboy "Tomorrow Wendy"

I mean really listening to it.From the fret buzz left there on the first beat of the second bar, to the clarity of the rhythm chimes, cymbals, triangles, flanging, quite severely chorused guitars that sound really pretty, speak of a big night sky, black and full of silver an ambient effect created by really considered and careful layering of reverb. END QUOTE.

I'll let you know what I find out.

BTW how's your Manley Gear?

Kind regards
Stedel
:cool:

Mad John Thu, 04/18/2002 - 10:26

Hi Stendel,

Thanks, the Manley gear is great, I absolutly love the MU and Massive Passive! (Still havn't found outside of vocals and bass drum what I like the duel mono pre for!)

I would love some opinions from anyone who can tell me what they think of the Hard Drive recorders as a professional option. Remeber, I have only used 1/2 and 1/4 inch 8 track for the past 15 years and I am extremly anxious to get to 24 tracks without going to 2 inch tape (at this time.)

What are the quality differences of Mackie and Alesis?

How many situations do you know of where the HD is being used for album production (my main focas.)

It certainly seems like a step up from where I have been. :roll:

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" - Edgar Varese - 1921

Mad John Thu, 04/18/2002 - 10:37

I just checked that Radar web site and I am completly confused! Bad pictures, comes in a package, cost $9,000? Woohhhhh Nelly!

What is this thing?

I just want a the beat HD 24 recorder that is availible, but I will not be hooking up to a computer or anything digital other than the recording machine and 2 tracks.

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" - Edgar Varese - 1921

coldsnow Thu, 04/18/2002 - 11:45

I have the Mackie MDR 24 which I use more or less like an analog 24 track. TO ME, the sound quality is good (better than my 20 bit ADATS and the Yamaha AW4416 I had or have). I do plan on upgrading converters and clock eventually, but it works fine for me now. It has never had a malfunction and is very easy to use.

Mad John Thu, 04/18/2002 - 12:20

Thank you Coldsnow!

You see, thats all I neded to know, because I have been considering the Mackie deck from the possible 3 (although I hate thier boards!)

It looks pretty solied, I like the buttons (seems friendly and analog like, which I prefer!)

I see they have a MDR+....What is different about this model?

Also there is the SDR....Whats the difference?

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" - Edgar Varese - 1921

coldsnow Thu, 04/18/2002 - 14:25

I don't know about the MDR+, but the SDR has both analog and ADAT digital ins and outs. Nice feature where the MDR just has AD and DA converters. You have to get seperate digital ins and outs but then you can't use the analog outs of the respective 8 tracks. The MDR converters, however, are suppose to be of better quality then the SDR.

mwagener Thu, 04/18/2002 - 19:19

If money is no problem, you might want to look at the Euphonix R-1
http://www.euphonix.com

I've had mine in operation for 2 years straight, almost every day, no problems, no crashes, sounds absolutely great, handles like a 2" machine, and it is the price of a small house (or a very big car).

The system consists of separate parts - A/D converters - D/A converters - disc drives - backup (Exabyte) drives - remote control, MADI hub and studio computer - and can be built to suit and expanded later. The Euphonix FC 727 converter hooks up digitally to everyhting from MADI to ProTools, SDIF-2, AES, ProDigi, TDIF and ADAT optical.

At the time when I had to make a purchase decision, RADAR was very close in price to the R-1 (for 48 tracks), at todays prices RADAR probably costs a third of the R-1. I have worked with the RADAR in my studio, side by side with the R-1 and I personally like the sound of the R-1 a little better, YMMV

Henchman Thu, 04/18/2002 - 19:39

Well, I guess it all depends on your price range.

I have been using Fairlights now for the last year and a half. And they are by far the best sounding digital recorders I've used. I haven't heard the R1 though.

But, if they're out of you're price Range, I have heard really good things about the Radar. For me there's a couple of things that are important:

1. Sound quality.
2. Stability
3. User friendly.

For me, it was important to have something that was a dedicated platform. I didn't want a Mac or Microsoft dependant machine.

Mark

anonymous Thu, 04/18/2002 - 21:04

[QUOTE]Originally posted by littledog:
Well, I suppose you could have just said "Fairlight" in about 499 less words, but then it wouldn't have been quite so much fun, i suppose... :p [/QUOTE)

Yeah. your right.

Fairlight Merlin and Dream Satellite. More reasonably priced than I ever thought and every review, user comment I've read or been given says the quality of the sound is fantastic, as is the flexibility, and rock-solidness of the platform User configurable Digital I/O's eg.A feature I like because I like using analog outboard myself.
And software re-programmable chips. So you don't have to upgrade hardware - which sounds intriguing.

No point in having "fun" up here.
So there you go.
:cool:

Ted Nightshade Fri, 04/19/2002 - 07:09

"Thanks, the Manley gear is great, I absolutly love the MU and Massive Passive! (Still havn't found outside of vocals and bass drum what I like the duel mono pre for!)"

You should be aware that the dual mono is way nonlinear and responds very differently depending on the input level, the gain switch, how hot the mic is and other similar things.
Big changes in the sound and texture.
Some experimentation and tweaking with this should leave you finding it useful for quite a number of purposes...
Ted

Mad John Fri, 04/19/2002 - 07:57

Thank you Ted,

I apreciate the support on the Manley Pre! I supose that I have not used it as openly as I could have and still need to properly test the unit out, for my main delema with it is I still do not have a clear idea of it's sound/voice.

I have a 2-610 that I fell in love with right away, because I could use it for just about everything and it colored the sound in a very pleaseing manner.

I will play with gain stage more (mine is 60db) , it is a rather simple preamp.

On the digital recorders: what price range are we talking about with the Fairlights and Dream Satellites?

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" Edgar Varese - 1921

Ted Nightshade Sun, 04/21/2002 - 07:44

This is just hearsay, but I'm in the same market here as Mr. Milhorat- the Tascam is a great sounding machine, with very good converters (don't count on Mackie or Alesis for that), that is very counterintuitive and difficult to get the hang of.
I wrestled with the manual for an afternoon and no dice... also Tascam customer service is difficult to get ahold of.
Radar is very attractive to me, not least because of the S-Nyquist converters.
Still it's quite expensive, so I better be learning about the Fairlight and whatever else.
Ted

Mad John Sun, 04/21/2002 - 11:22

Between the 2, I am hearing a few people favoring the Tascams over the Mackies.

I might metion at this time I really cannot afford more than $4,000 on a deck (unless the circumstance was so ideal that I just had to make a stretched financial plunge!)

Cheers!

Mad John
Zythum Studios

"The present day Composer refuses to die!" - Edgar Varese - 1921

anonymous Sun, 04/21/2002 - 12:40

Guys you REALLY should check the RADAR site. They now have a RADAR "bundle" that costs $5995! It includes the "classic" converters that do 48k and you can upgrade to the Nyquist converters later. Plug in a VGA and you are ready to rock.
I've done some sessions on the RADAR24 with the 48k converters and it sounds awesome....that's what I'm going to buy!!
Micah

anonymous Sun, 04/21/2002 - 14:33

I to have been checking out the choices. All seem to fall short in one catagory or another. Alesis , Mackie and Tascam, all have there shortcomings and some need extra cards to even work. The Radar system seems nice but a little pricey. I'm curious though about their new IDE system, It's almost in my budget, but is it far from there standard, and can you really upgrade that system to nyquist? What the heck is nyquist anyway? For now Im sticking with my 20 bit adats until the smoke settles. I also need to think about some kind of back-up for when I transfer into pro- tools le for edit and mix....maybe DVD .......thanks

anonymous Sun, 04/21/2002 - 18:34

Originally posted by moosicgood:
I to have been checking out the choices. All seem to fall short in one catagory or another. Alesis , Mackie and Tascam, all have there shortcomings and some need extra cards to even work. The Radar system seems nice but a little pricey. I'm curious though about their new IDE system, It's almost in my budget, but is it far from there standard, and can you really upgrade that system to nyquist? What the heck is nyquist anyway? For now Im sticking with my 20 bit adats until the smoke settles. I also need to think about some kind of back-up for when I transfer into pro- tools le for edit and mix....maybe DVD .......thanks

moosicgood,

1) The IDE version is the "RADAR 24 Project". It uses a very high reliability server IDE drive which is much less expensive than the SCSI version. We introduced this because we wanted to give those with a lower budget the ability to get into the high sound quality of RADAR. The RADAR 24 Project has the same well known "Classic" 24/48 converters used in the RADAR II and the RADAR 24 Classic.

2) Yes the RADAR 24 Project can be upgraded to any of the higher end versions although it will cost you about 5% more to do it that way. It's worth it if you can't afford the higher end units right away.

3) "Nyquist" is the name of our 96 kHz version. Named after Harry Nyquist who postulated the famous "Nyquist Theorem" that says that you need to sample at twice the highest frequency of a sound in order to capture and reproduce it accurately. You can read about him at this link:
http://www.geocitie… mistry/nyquist.htm

4) Backup: Some use Exabyte 8 mm tape (special data version of 8 mm video tape). Most people now use DVD RAM because it is random access and take way less time to retrieve data. We offer both.

anonymous Sun, 04/21/2002 - 20:22

Originally posted by moosicgood:
Thank you so much, I read you guys are working on a data transfer{drive swaps/ethernet} for pro-tools will this be possible also for the IDE drives. I know have scsi drives in my set up are they compatable?

Yes, version 3.10, now shipping, does all this and it is possible with the IDE drives.

Henchman Mon, 04/22/2002 - 09:24

Originally posted by RADAR:

Originally posted by Henchman:
Hey Barry, have you guys ever thought about moving into post production?

mark

mark,

Yes.

Hey mark, where is your studio?Right downtown on Beatty street. We are mainly post. But I still do music stuff myself. We are just finishing the series "No Boundaries" for Global. If you want to come down give me a call or drop me an email.

604 632-0101
Mark

anonymous Wed, 04/24/2002 - 02:27

Originally posted by RADAR:

1) The IDE version is the "RADAR 24 Project". It uses a very high reliability server IDE drive which is much less expensive than the SCSI version. We introduced this because we wanted to give those with a lower budget the ability to get into the high sound quality of RADAR. The RADAR 24 Project has the same well known "Classic" 24/48 converters used in the RADAR II and the RADAR 24 Classic.

2) Yes the RADAR 24 Project can be upgraded to any of the higher end versions although it will cost you about 5% more to do it that way. It's worth it if you can't afford the higher end units right away.

3) "Nyquist" is the name of our 96 kHz version. Named after Harry Nyquist who postulated the famous "Nyquist Theorem" that says that you need to sample at twice the highest frequency of a sound in order to capture and reproduce it accurately.

All this is very cool.
The Radar stuff is fantastic, no doubt about that, and the user feedback is also fantastic. If you're gonna hang around at 48kHz they would be perfect.As many people are saying that's what they're going to do.
But is it still the case that if you want to go 96kHz you're down to 12 tracks?

One more thing:
You know how other forums etc. you get ex users saying "yeah I tried that and it's ****" don't touch it", or "now that I've forked out ex amount of $'s for additonal outboard, external sync units like Nanosync, to finally get the sound I want it's cool"?
Well I've never seen that said anywhere by anybody re Fairlight. Or Radar. Just a thought....

Ted Nightshade Wed, 04/24/2002 - 16:28

My prejudices and general ignorance lead me to proclaim that you shouldn't expect much from the Mackie or Alesis clocks. You can expect more from the Tascam clock, but I'd be suprised if it compared with Radar's or with what you could do with a well implemented external clock.
Just something to think about when comparing prices.
The Tascam is pretty steep when you add on all the dealies you need it to work for you.
I would view it as a serious but confusing contender to the Radar. I've heard some suprising (positive) things about the apparently very good converters in the MX2424.
Still I think when you figure in converters and clock Alesis and Mackie drop precipitously from view. Add the budget attitude of these companies if you like.

I'm mighty curious about the Fairlight, but it seems it's for those to whom expense is not a deal-breaker, as it is for me.
Radar's pushing it pricewise for me for sure, but I'm sick of messing with computers when I want to be recording, and the backup system seems solid which is very important to me.
FWIW.
Ted

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