The API's are great for rock and pop, not used much for classical .. Of all the pres you are thinking about, for your purposes, I would go with the Hardy 990's ... the most accurate / least coloring of the bunch ...

I'm not sure if you were soliciting opinions on the mics you listed, of those, the ones the only ones I don't care for are the C1000s, C3000s and the C4000s. I love AKGs but I don't like that particular series of mics.

The UA 6176 pre you have is a good one but I don't care much for the others ... The UA is probably not the best choice for classical recordings but is a great choice for pop and rock production..

I'd suggest a 2 or 4ch Earthworks pre.....clean which is what you need for that kinda recording..

Hey guys, my first inclination was the Hardy's. Would you use them for as stereo on-location recording for like folk groups or such?

As for the stuff I got, well I made some typically bad choices early on before I even knew where to look for advice. The 6176 is pretty cool and the dbx's aren't "that" bad. The AKG mics I have are lame, but my dynamics are good and my Dragonfly's are pretty nice, as is the SM81, and really the C4000 isn't useless. If I find the dragonfly's aren't up to the task I'll look into something else, but M150's are out of my price range. Maybe the Josephson matched pair that are not that expensive.

Anyone have any insight on compression/limiting on the way in on this kind of stereo on location stuff?

The Hardy's are not the quintessential classical mic pre ... as was mentioned, Earthworks, Millennia and and Grace have that niche' pretty well sewed up ... however as an all around alternitive, considering the pres you mentioned, the Hardy's are probably the best of the bunch for what you want. I can promise you that you won't regret buying them..

Compression is a tougher nut ... there just aren't any inexpensive ones that are any good IMO ... I like EL OP types and the Manley stuff for the vari mu types.. the old Ureis are great if you can find them ... 1176, 1178, LA3's & LA4's ... and of course the LA2a ... all pretty expensive though.

If you are looking for a decent low cost mic alternitives for location recording .. think of the Studio Projects C4's

[="http://www.studioprojects.com/c4.html"]C4 link[/]="http://www.studiopr…"]C4 link[/]

or the LSD2 which is great for M/S apps ...

[[url=http://="http://www.studiopr…"]LSD2 link[/]="http://www.studiopr…"]LSD2 link[/]

You mean either the "Lunatic" from grace or their 201 type pre, not the 101-- right?

I see the earthworks and the Millennia two channel pres also.

Would all of these also be suitable as "all purpose" pres?

With respect to the Studio Projects mics, would you recommend them over the Josephson 42MP? Not that I'm planning to go that route if the dragonfly's don't cut it, but it is a thought. A better thought might be the Microtech Gefell M 930 matched pair or their M 300 matched pair. More money, but after my initial purchases I sort of don't want to look anywhere but top shelf even if it means waiting. I figure I'd rather something I'll always have a use for, I've got stuff to "tide me over".

My last on-location recording was of singer/songwriters done with the Dragonflys straight into a VS1680, and the dragonfly's were a big improvement over the C 1000's (duh, I know).

And finally, yes, compressing on the way in can be risky, but of the types you mentioned which is best suited for that: ELOP, VARI-MU, two 1176s (i'd be shocked if this was the choice), two LA-2As, or something else? The worst thing is to ride knobs during the process, at least from my experiences, and if I'm recording the night and performing at somepoint I can't be futzing with the recording-- I'd rather set it up and leave it alone as much as possible-- I have to focus elsewhere like tuning my guitars 1000 times be fore I go on :wink: .

OK, I'll be the dissenting opinion. Many of the "great" classical studio albums cut in the late 60's early 70's were made using the only preamps available at the time; the big Neve or API console in the control room. At the time, nobody had a pair of Avalon or Millennia preamps to offer as an alternative, but nobody was complaining about the preamps in these very high end consoles. It wasn't until 20 years later that people started believing that API and Neve preamps are good for rock, but "too dirty" for jazz, classical or other acoustic music. Bunk!

While there are a lot of current outboard preamps that are designed to break up early (UA 610, Chandler TG2, etc.) the stock Neve and API units can sound GREAT on acoustic music. But it really helps if you don't close mic the instruments and then overload the preamp inputs. Keep the mics back where they belong, hit the inputs with the appropriate level and stock API preamps can sound amazing on just about anything. I know because I carry a pair to every location gig that I record. And I only record acoustic music these days.

Hollywood Steve wrote: Many of the "great" classical studio albums cut in the late 60's early 70's were made using the only preamps available at the time; the big Neve or API console in the control room. At the time, nobody had a pair of Avalon or Millennia preamps to offer as an alternative, but nobody was complaining about the preamps in these very high end consoles.

I agree with most of what Steve says ... and some of my favorite jazz and pop recordings were recorded by Bill Putnam in his Chicago and LA studios ... using UA 610 style preamps, LA2a's LA3's and 1176's .... very colored indeed. I personally like that and it is what I would go for but that's my opinion.

Remember though, that what those engineers and producers wished for back then were pre amps and eq's that were transparent. At the time, everyone did hate the coloration. I guess you don't know what you got until it's gone ....

Some folks like the whole clean / uncolored / transparent thing that Millennia, Grace (yes, the 201's not the 101s), Earthworks and others do and I was addressing that. I would not think of them as all purpose pres however. Like I said, I hardly ever come across a use for mine. But that again, is my personal taste.

Any good pre would be suitable as an all around pre and these days we are fortunate enough to have a wide choice to pick from. The Hardy is a decent op amp style pre (like the APIs) that is Jensen transformer balanced. IMO it is probably the closest thing to the middle ground between being transparent and still having a little of that "good" sound.

Hey Kurt and Steve, and everyone who posted thanks.

I'm not any closer to a decision :wink: but you guys have add must stuff for me to think about.

I'm guessing I got one of those UA 2610 (I dual pre, or another 6176) it wouldn't be so bad based on the old way of doing things or the API for that matter, and if I got a Grace 201 or Milenia or Earthworks I might not use it elsewhere. But I've heard people rave about Earthworks pres on overheads, and it seems the API gets all around the drum kit very often.

The Hardy's may be the closest to a jack of all trades of what I'm talking about, but I guess I need to see where I really stand on the transparent-good sound-color scale.

I know Pepe Romero's Flamenco! was recorded with three Telefunken 251's, but I'll have to see what studio and what they used for a board. Instead of researching gear I should research recordings, and that will tell me what to test out.

I'm also looking to by a Allen & Heath 14:4:2+ for playing shows of all sorts, and closing on a house in like three weeks, so I've got time to sort these ideas out.

But, anyone want to say if it is the ELOP or the VARI-Mu or LA2A or something else that might even out peaks with torturing the live ambiance.

If API was the best or even the only mic pre's I had, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on any source for any application and for any style of music.

AudioGaff wrote: If API was the best or even the only mic pre's I had, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on any source for any application and for any style of music.

Not to be a total "dick", but that is kind of a tautology, if they were the best-- when we always know best goes hand in hand with best for the given application-- or the only, then of coarse I'd use them :wink: .

But I know what you're saying, that you'd not hesitate to use them on any given source, as they are a quality pre. But, I don't have them :oops: and as I'm bouncing around of which high quality pre to get, and seeing the prices I'm weighing a lot of factors.

Ultimately in the long run I'll probably have three of the following: more UA, Hardy, API, Millennia, Earthworks, Great River, Chandler, Grace, yada, yada, yada. Especially when certain ones really define archtypes of sound styles. Eventually I'll save up and say "I'll get a four channel API for that drum sound everyone wants", and if I don't like it I'll ship it back to fletcher for what ever my flavor of that sound ends up being. The UA stuff I'll get regardless of how muddy or uneven from 20-20 it is because I worship at the alter of Pet Sounds for better or worse, in sickness and in health..., and I'm around classical people so spotlessly clean in a killer room will be a goal of mine for some things at least to either make them happy or myself.

I just can't have fletcher ship me back and forth every mic pre (can I?). I think for now it is down to Milenia, Grace, Hardy (I've just heard too much good about these), and Earthworks for the on location and my own classical stuff, at least I'll find out if I'm a fan of spotlessly clean or "pleasingly clean" which I guess is what the Hardy's are. If down the road the API or more UA (probably next on the long term goals after this little set of upgrades is done) do the job more often than not, then that is a good thing. I could see two 6176' s or a 2610 at the coffee house recording a gig. I guess I could rent for each show I want to record and make my decision that way.

Thanks for adding Millennia and Grace and Earthworks to my vocabulary! A lot of you guys might find it tedious answering neophytes as they ask essentially the same question over and over, but really I gain from picking up on the nuanced differences in what surfacially appear to be the same answers. Then when I hear my gear (like when I finally got a 421, especially) the things I read here crystalize into knowledge.

But, no one want to touch the compressor end of the question,
:wink: , do they?

AudioGaff wrote: If API was the best or even the only mic pre's I had, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on any source for any application and for any style of music.

Let's not do this Gaff.....we both know blanket statements like this won't hold up in the professional audio community.

I do agree API makes some great pre's...but I'm not sure classical guitar is one of their strongest applications...

musicalhair wrote:

I just can't have fletcher ship me back and forth every mic pre (can I?).

But, no one want to touch the compressor end of the question,
:wink: , do they?

Call Fletcher...I'm sure he'd be more than happy to send you a test unit....or two.

Considering the compressor question....I don't do live sound....but I would imagine they use a fairly good amount of compression....it's more about level control than it is in the studio (where compressors are used for many things)

If I can be so bold as to throw you another option........

Please check out the Buzz Audio MA2.2 (dual pre) and the SOC1.1 (optical compressor)
Unbelievably fast and clean, and top quality to boot.

http://www.atlasproaudio.com/buzz.html
http://www.buzzaudio.com

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djui5 wrote: [quote=AudioGaff]If API was the best or even the only mic pre's I had, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on any source for any application and for any style of music.

Let's not do this Gaff.....we both know blanket statements like this won't hold up in the professional audio community.

I do agree API makes some great pre's...but I'm not sure classical guitar is one of their strongest applications...

Let's not do what? There was no blanket statement. All I was saying was that if API was the best quality mic pre I had to use or even if was the only mic pre(s) I owned, I surely would not hesitiate on using it on anything. It doesn't have to be the best or the most perfect mic pre for classical guitar for me to use and still get fantastic sound. A lot of people just use or think API is only for drums. Those people are idiots...

The Millennia and Hardy share the same bed in my book as they both are of the 990 opamp type. Either one will serve well. Add the API and some sort of Neve type clone along with a strong tube from UA or DW Fearn and you have a full basic color chart to choose from. Then fill the other slots with stuff that fits in between them like Focusrite, Manley, Daking, Chander EMI, Great River ect...

Hey AudioGaff, that last post helped further organize the way I see these things, thanks. As I get close to closing on the new house or past it and I actually pick up the new pre I'll post back here on my happiness with it or whatever my impressions are.

I guess sometime in the future I'll post the question on compressing while recording a live show in stereo, unless someone wants to tackle it now.

I have Earthworks, UA, Great River, API and Sebatron.

I use the Earthworks routinely for:
- almost all my acoustic guitars, pop, rock or folk.
- any small string ensembles
- almost all drum overheads from folk to metal
- on-site classical and ensemble recordings.

Great stuff.

Steve

Hey Steve-- and everyone else of course-- am I like pointlessly sweating the potential differences between say the Earthworks, Milenia, and Hardy's? As the variables like where I'm recording, my mics and such will create unique sound that ultimately must be judged on it's own merits and not by judging the differences between pre-amps?

musicalhair wrote: Hey Steve-- and everyone else of course-- am I like pointlessly sweating the potential differences between say the Earthworks, Milenia, and Hardy's? As the variables like where I'm recording, my mics and such will create unique sound that ultimately must be judged on it's own merits and not by judging the differences between pre-amps?

Yeah....precisely.

musicalhair wrote: Hey Steve-- and everyone else of course-- am I like pointlessly sweating the potential differences between say the Earthworks, Milenia, and Hardy's? As the variables like where I'm recording, my mics and such will create unique sound that ultimately must be judged on it's own merits and not by judging the differences between pre-amps?

Of those 3 the Earthworks is probably the most transparent but yeah you are splitting hairs. Moving a mic 1" will have a bigger impact than which pre you select.

Make sure you like the pre's interafing and the people that make it.

Steve

AudioGaff wrote: The Millennia and Hardy share the same bed in my book as they both are of the 990 opamp type.

I learn something new every day ! I was unaware that the Millennia HV-3 was a 990 op amp pre. Of course there is a bit of a difference to the Hardy because the Hardy is a transformer balanced pre, isn't it?

There must be something else different too ... because even when I kick in the transformer on my Origin, it still sounds nothing like APIs do (I wish it did!).

The Hardy comes in a one space rack that can accomodate 4 990 pres .... you can order it short loaded and then purchase more channels as you can afford them ..

As for the compressor question ... the EL OP and LA2a types are the least obtrisive .. you can take as much as 10dB off the top of a signal with out a lot of audible artifacts.. and compression will actually increase the ambience ....

The Millennia HV-3 is most definitely not a 990 type preamp.

It is a combination of discrete input devices and monolythic opamps
design.

Well done, but not 990.

No, I meant the TT series from Millennia like the Origin. I believe those mic pre's are of the 990 opamp type. Summit Audio also uses their own version of the 990 type opamp in their higher end mic pre's. The API sounds different because it uses the API 2520 Opamp and of course their own custom transformers. The Hardy has an input transformer (Jensen) and an output transformer option.

I may be splitting hairs here, but AudioGaff said "I believe those mic pre's are of the 990 opamp type." I may be making too big a deal out of "990 opamp type", but it seems to be suggesting that the discrete op-amp that is used by Millennia is a type of 990, which it is not. Allow me to explain again about the "990" just to be certain:

The "JE-990" is a discrete op-amp that was designed in 1979 by Deane Jensen of Jensen Transformers. Deane wrote a paper about it, which was published in the AES Journal in 1980. I started manufacturing the JE-990 in the API2520-style package back then. I have always referred to it as simply the "990", thought there are actually several variations of it, the most recent being the 990C.

Others have made 990 op-amps using Deane's circuit as well. Steve Hogan (formerly of Jensen Transformers) made a larger package version. Summit makes one in an API-style package. There was a version that was included along with other circuitry in a cartridge recorder made by Pacific Recorders back in the 1980s.

In recent years things have become confused because Millennia Media, Forssell Technologies and a couple of other companies have come up with discrete op-amps that they decided to call a "990" (plus or minus a prefix or suffix or two), even though the circuit was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the Jensen 990. They are not a "990 opamp type" in any way, other than the package type.

I am happy to say that they have all graciously decided to rename their products to something other than "990" to remove any confusion with the actual Jensen 990 circuit.

If a discrete op-amp does not use the Jensen 990 circuit, then it is not a 990, nor is it a 990-type op-amp. I hope this is helpful. Thank you.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com

Wow, best mic preamp thread I have read in a while. David

Thanks Mr. Hardy for clearing that up. I admit I have often used the term "990 type opamp" in a rather loose and general slang. No offense to you or Deane Jensen intended. Would it be fair to say 990 opamp influenced?

Thanks Mr. Hardy for clearing that up. I admit I have often used the term "990 type opamp" in a rather loose and general slang. No offense to you or Deane Jensen intended. Would it be fair to say 990 opamp influenced?

No offense taken. I don't want to be overbearing here, or getting too crazy about the situation.

Perhaps if you are referring to a discrete op-amp, just call it a "discrete op-amp". If it is in a "990-style package" (or a "2520-style package" - which is actually a package that existed prior to API using it), just call it a "990-style package" (or a "2520-style package"). In that case, you are referring to the package, not the circuit.

BTW, I am not trying to say that anyone else's op-amp is better or worse than the 990, just different.

Also, I'm typing this from a newly established account here, since me previous account is suddenly not allowing me to use the "Search" function or even look at the various forums. It is probably a problem with my browser (Mozilla Firefox). Thank you.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com

Thanks John, ( does anyone call you J W ? )
... we did thrash this about at my old place. :roll:

... and as a result JLM did make a change to the name of their op-amp block. I think in the end all people were happy with the outcome.

from JLMs web site : http://www.jlmaudio.com/JLM99V.htm

The JLM990 has had a name change to JLM99V due to discussion on a forum with John Hardy ,Fred Forssell and Group DIY.

Just for clarity
The only thing the Deane Jensen 990 Design and mine share is the pinout configuration. The JLM99V is more like a Neve Class A Preamp on major Steroids. It is a pure path device with the signal path only travelling through three transistor junctions. It has gain limited to about 60dB with no feedback applied. When setup right the THD with feedback is 0.005% at normal operating levels heading up to 0.5% 2nd Harmonic as its output swing reaches closer to the power rails. It has a 1v DC offset on the output due to the -input of the opamp being an emitter input. It runs best on +/-34v but can run on +/-24v.

Yes, I took the chance to drop a shameless plug for Joe ... and yes, Joe is a friend of mine so you have to factor that in, if and when I may give an opinion of any of Joe's gear. 8)

Kev;

Thanks John, ( does anyone call you J W ? )

I had a neighbor in Alto Pass, Illinois (population 300) back in 1979 who called me "JW", pronounced "Jay-Dub-Yuh".

The JLM990 has had a name change to JLM99V

Perhaps there will be some confusion with the MM99 from Millennia?

In the greater scheme of things, very tiny problems! Thanks.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
http://www.johnhardyco.com