Dunno, but I am sure Kurt has something to say about it...

I'm not familiar with this model, but I would sear clear of Behringer. I bought several different peices of Behringer gear when I first started recording and have regretted buying all of them. They are far from pro gear and have very little resale value.

Originally posted by anfernee:
Also would it be worth investing a bit more and getting the Yamaha 01V96 ?

Yes it would. But why only those two choices? I think you need to decide first if you need or want the sound and features of analog or digital as a format, then decide which mixer best suits your needs and budget.

I have been a life-long card-carrying member of the "Behringer Basher Union", and have avoided buying anything with an eye and a triangle on it.

That being said, I have owned a DDX3216 for the last 6 months, and must admit that I am absolutely thrilled with my purchase.

Hate Behringer or not, the DDX has equal or better sound vs. the 01v96, although it only goes to 48K. It has much better features (including individual meters).

I personally do not pass any signal through the mixer that gets sent to tape. I use outboard mic pres that go directly to tape, and use the DDX for monitoring, headphone mixes (4 total), and as a control surface for Cubase SX.

If I had a Yammy 01v96, I would not pass any signal through that either!!!

The Behringer has much better specs, sounds better, has better effects, much better ergonomics, etc.

YMMV obviously, but I will state that the hardest part about buying the DDX was getting over the Behringer name.

They have been making better products as of late. The reviews of the DDX have all been surprisingly positive, including comments in most of the reviews that they reviewer was surprised at the quality of the sound.

Everybody that I know that have tried the DDX (I know of at least 15 others) are all thrilled, and surprised that this product was made by Behringer.

Rant over! :)

Well the boys at B didn't likely create the DDX3216 without copying it from someone else? Find out who they copied it from and buy that product.

Usually that's true, but I'm not sure always. I've never seen another company with a mic quite like those inexpensive 8000 omnis that Behringer makes.

This is not to be interpreted as a Behringer endorsement.

People !!!

Thanks for the repiles. Maybe if I tell you what I sm going to use it for I can get some more opinions ?

I wanted to use it not only as a Digital Mixer but as a control surface for Logic aswell.

I read that Doublehelix uses his for Cubase SX how do you find it as control surface ? How did you hook it up to your computer, did you the ADAT options ?

AudioGaff: I haven't found anything that sit's in between these two mixers in price and specs, do you know of any ? The only other option I have found in the TASCAM

A

AudioGaff: I haven't found anything that sit's in between these two mixers in price and specs, do you know of any ? The only other option I have found in the TASCAM

I can only think of the Tascam as well. I'm not really up on the digial mixers. I guess I would eyeball an older used 02R as I would expect it to have higher quality and flexability than the newer cheaper stuff. Just a thought...

Have to agree there. There is a big difference in wanting to use something for the name that is on it then wanting to use it because you really like the sound coming out of it. I think Behringer is getting bashed a bit too much on this site. It might not be the best gear out there but not everybody has a truckload of cash to buy an 02R for his monitoring purposes. For ppl who have producing music as a hobby mainly and don't want to spend thousands of dollars on it Behringer really is a nice thing. They offer gear that works and has acceptable results even if they aren't in the range of the very expensive gear out there.

The Behringer Composer compressors for example are used by some of the top dance producers from Europe and they all like it very much. It has actually become a standard. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Behringer gear is any good for mastering or for the producer in a big studio but for the hobby producer and musician these products really provide some nice options.

And ofcourse it's also a very personal choice what you like and what you like to pay for it...

:D

Originally posted by Marik:
Dunno, but I am sure Kurt has something to say about it...

:D Yep! I do ...

My main problem with Behringer in whole, is their labor practices. They are suspected of using forced prison labor in China. No one is allowed in the production facilities and any one who tries to ask questions about what goes on in them, is treated as if they were trying to obtain (as George Dubya would say) "Nucyaleer" secrets. So in light of this, I really don't care if they come up with a product that can be a Neve, SSL, and a MCI all in the same box, doesn't spontaneously combust in the rack, fall apart after a year and actually had some resale value. I still wouldn't buy it, or recommend it to anyone.

The whole cheeping out of the audio manufacturing industry only serves to cloud the water (exactly what the bottomfeeding manufactures of cheap gear want) and eventually, in the long run, because no one will have a good job, who will be able to afford these products other than the rich? It's an approach of devouring ones self for short term gain. As consumers, we should be conscious of the ramifications of the purchasing decisions we make. If we don't support the companies that provide good paying jobs under acceptable working conditions these companies will not be able to compete in the marketplace. So I spend a little more to purchase gear from companies with a bit of social consciousness. I think when the whole picture is viewed, the actual costs of such an approach are much less.

These accusations aren't really grounded as nobody enters these facility's or is there hard evidence that they are doing that? I mean isn't it so that one is innocent before proved otherwise ;)

If it is true i will ofcourse burn my tube composer right away! hehe

Hee! Hee!
What a surprise you turned up Kurt. :D
Regards,
Tom
PS:(whisper)...I can lend you some black jammies,
ski-mask,boltcutters & an infrared camera.
Then you can get the real cop on the Behringer factory hey?

:p:

Well they (B word) are cutting corners somewhere. It has to be labor cause it sure isn't in the design department. They are copying even Studio Projects stuff and selling it at half the price. Studio Projects manufactures in China also albit at 797 whos doors, are esentially open. Bword must have something to hide behind all the secrecy and once again it sure isn't their designs. Treena says she has seen some stuff on the web about this. I will see if she can dig it up and post a link.

Tom, Thanks for the nice words! I am glad you and 'da fambly liked it! TMP 8 for the drums, Neve 9098 on the overheads, U87 on the lead vox and SP C3 in omni on the bg vox, both through the JLM TMP 8. Keys and guitars through the Sebatron vmp 4000e. Bass through a Millennia STT-1 DI in the tube setting and the eq and compressor in the tube mode also. Basic tracks for 2 songs 5 hours, including set ups. Another 5 hours in overdubs and mix.. Good gear makes it a breeze! I can't tell you how good it makes me feel to hear that you liked it! Kurt

[ October 24, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

Blimey !!!

I didn't think I would be getting a lesson in Music equipment industry ethics into the bargain !!!!

But thanks again for more opinions, I think I will go and check all three out (Yamaha, Behringer and Tascam) They all offer what I am after so I'll have a play with each of them.

If anybody could think of any other options I would be greatful.

A

Well they (B word) are cutting corners somewhere. It has to be labor

Or maybe the other company's are making these corners a bit too wide maybe heheh ;)

Originally posted by DmDreams:

Well they (B word) are cutting corners somewhere. It has to be labor

Or maybe the other company's are making these corners a bit too wide maybe heheh ;)

I'm sorry but I don't think that is it. I am actually amazed at how good the SP stuff can sound when compared to its German counterparts. I know for a fact that Alan Hyatt is trying to keep the costs as low as possible. Bword cuts corners by not spending money on designs, choosing to steal them from pre exsisting products that use well established designs. This is a well known fact! Why is it so unfathomable to you that they wouldn't also engage in unethical labor practices up to and including the use of forced prison workers? It is obvious that they are not concerned with how they are percived in the marketplace. They have been engaging in this type of behavior since the release of their first products when they were sued by Mackie. All Bword is interested in is putting out products at the lowest possible price point, for people who simply don't know any better or who are so self centered they don't care. I gotta admit, some of the stuff with all the meters and lights and switches and pots looks pretty cool. To bad they don't sound like they look.. I have a feeling, Behringer would have gotton along just fine in Nazi Germany.. BTW, is it Uli or Uri Behringer? I have seen it both ways... ???

afernee,

I'm so tempted to jump right into the "stolen intellectual property and dumped for next to nothing" vs. "slightly modified and now overpriced by a factor of 5" but I guess I won't :D .

Just food for thought,

MisterBlue.

Why is it so unfathomable to you that they wouldn't also engage in unethical labor practices up to and including the use of forced prison workers?

Because there is absolutely no proof of that what so ever. If you show it to me i will believe it Kurt. I'm absolutely with you on the fact that Behringer is far from high quality signal processing but if you have read my former posts on this you know that i like Behringer because they make it possible for all the ppl who don't have truckloads of money to have producing music as a hobby. Please don't tell me that Behringer is the only unethical company around. Mackie just stole the digidesign MBox design. It happens all over the place. Look at software sequencers. They all have similar features. If we should boycot a brand because it's products use designs which already exsist then i don't think we are thinking straight.

There are a lot of company's all over the world which are very, very inethical and kill ppl for profit. These company's make products which we all use every single day of our lives. This world works that way. I don't like it at all but there's no escape from it and this will get worse even. (hehe i could go and walk around with a sign that says "The world is gonna end" :s: )

Dreams,
I am searching and looking for some facts to back this up. It is a bit difficult as Mackie and Samson have just settled their differences, and since this has happened Mackie has closed down the links to much of this info. There is a very interesting thread on this topic at Talk Bass .. you might check that out. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.talkbass…"] Talk Bass Behringer thread[/]="http://www.talkbass…"] Talk Bass Behringer thread[/]

I actually do boycott many companies that do things I feel are unethical. I don't use products from Dow Chemical, Farber, Benz Dalimer, BMW etc. because they were supporters of the Nazis and I stay away from many other companies for the other reasons. I questioned Alan Hyatt about his labor practices also. I am not singleing out Behringer in this quest. I think that by nature of the rumor, there is something to be concerned about, where there is smoke, there is fire and I personally would rather err on the side of caution rather than attempt to gain from such a situation until it is proven. Once again, why is Behringer so secretive on this subject? They must be hiding something...

I don't know a whole lot about the ethics issue, I just know what I've experienced myself. I bought a shit load of Behringer stuff when I first started putting my studio together becaus it was cheap. I got rid of it because it was all crap. And barely got half of the original price for it. There is a lot of better quality gear out there in the same price range. even if you have to buy some stuff used, it'sbetter than buying crap.

Hi MisterBlue,

I have thought about that (Getting the Logic Control unit) but it won't allow me to hook my S1000, Drum machine and M1 up to it. I have also thought about getting the new Yamaha 01X (Control Surface and Digitial Mixer) but the release date has been put back so many times and it will be entirely new technology (possibly highly buggy!)

So I came to the conclusion that a straight out Digital Mixer would do what I need to intergrate everything I have. I can see any other way to get everything I need and in working order....

Thanks again

A

Understood. Makes sense.

Looks like you have only very limited options to fulfill all of your requirements unless you want to spend a LOT of money ...

You can't judge long term quality this way but if you have the option to get one of the units that you are considering (whichever brand), take it home and try it out for a week I would go down that route. I would think that there are stores in London that have a liberal return policy ... :roll: ?
You are the best judge of what works for you and what doesn't.

Just my point of view.

MisterBlue.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.mojopie…"]DDX3216 Review[/]="http://www.mojopie…"]DDX3216 Review[/]

It's a good mixer in my opinion.

Warren

Well I don'y like B products because........
All the Eurodesk line is niosey, brittle, built like a crap.
They break easy, there pre's sound like garbage, there EQ's sound like garbage.
Their Tube pre. Once again it sounds bad, brittle, noisy, overly hot, made with cheap parts including there tossible tubes that if you were to buy one you'll replace, bad power supply, harmonic knob sounds horrible not plesent distortion but very harsh. The pre's in a 001 sound better.
There compressors aren't that bad, anything that goes through it loses lots of deffintion, can''t push the compessor or the compession is very noticeable, not as noisy as some of there other analog stuff, theres gates are some of the worst I've ever heard, but once again its built very poorly.
There mics sound overly hyped in the top, noisy, brittle, distort easy, and sound very annoying when an agressive singer gets on it, reminds me of the lower line MXL's most likely because they both have cheap chinese capsules and parts.
I've never used there digital desk but from evereything else that company has made I doubt its nice, or even worth looking at.
B, as you can tell by the practices of the company aren't really out there to make good procucts at a decent price there out there to make cheap products that are cheap in everyway, your really paying for what you get.

Originally posted by Warhead:
[[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.mojopie…"]DDX3216 Review[/]="http://www.mojopie…"]DDX3216 Review[/]

It's a good mixer in my opinion.

Warren

Just keep in mind that the person who posted this link to the review is the writer of same review. He has no real record credits listed and is using the mixer appearently with a Fostex analog narrow guage multi track. Not the best scenario to be recording on when a review is in progress.

Kurt, I was using a Fostex 1/4" 8 track (M80) years ago. If you would have read further, you'd find I've been using it with a Fostex D160 hard disk recorder. The review is a little old, I am now using an RME Hammerfall card into Nuendo.

I have no "real" record credits indeed, I'm not sure the fellow looking to buy one of these mixers has record credits either. Apparently you've got plenty of credits yourself with your excellent reputation around here? I've done some assisting in the past and this is my second project studio, so no I've never worked on anything you would have heard, that's for sure.

Whether I have record credits or not, and whether anything I record sounds "good" would be up to others to decide. Here's a clip recorded with the DDX3216, you yourself might enjoy it...?

Please realize this is me (a Beatles fan) just screwing around. I think you can hear the overall decent clarity and punch from the preamps etc.

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://artists.iuma…"]Me Screwing Around (Beatles...drums and piano no vocals)[/]="http://artists.iuma…"]Me Screwing Around (Beatles...drums and piano no vocals)[/]

Warren

OK, I am d loading right now to take a listen. I didn't mean to offend, I was just making some obsevations. I will say that this kind of gear is most uninteresting to me and I personally feel that just about all budget gear is a waste of money. If you ever got your hands on some great mic pres, you would understand what I am saying. Now I know this last comment assumes you have never used good pres but that is the only explaination I can come up with as in my expierence, anyone who has worked with great front end, never goes back to the budget stuff. I will listen and get back to you here, giving you my impressions. Kurt

Thanks Kurt! Again, I'm just a Beatles fan bashing away...

The last project I worked on was assisting Mark Williams, a grammy nominated engineer / producer based out of Charlotte NC. This was the first time I had a chance to use API pres (3124+ unit) and was blown away. The Manley unit he had was quite nice as well. He also mixed on a Neve VR console at Reflection Studio and I had the pleasure of sitting in on some of that as well.

I've used real gear, I have heard real gear. This mixer can make a record, but no it's no API or Neve! :) A real bargain in my opinion.

I've got a Speck 5.0 in the studio right now by the way, love it! Great bass DI as well.

Take care.

Warren

Warren,
Yes the Speck 5.0 is a remarkable piece of preamp. I liked it quite a bit.

I took a listen and Treena wants to play bass to it. This is a very well played performance and that goes a long way to making it sound good regardless of what was used to record it! What kind of piano was that and were the drums sample loops, real or electronic? I did detect some high end brittleness to the piano and cymbals and I suspect it has to do with the mic pres. These cheap pres always spec out well but in real world applications, they sound harsh.

I would like very much to publish your review and sound clips in the RO E Mag if you would allow me to.. Kurt

Originally posted by Kurt Foster:
Warren,
Yes the Speck 5.0 is a remarkable piece of preamp. I liked it quite a bit.

I took a listen and Treena wants to play bass to it. This is a very well played performance and that goes a long way to making it sound good regardless of what was used to record it! What kind of piano was that and were the drums sample loops, real or electronic? I did detect some high end brittleness to the piano and cymbals and I suspect it has to do with the mic pres. These cheap pres always spec out well but in real world applications, they sound harsh.

I would like very much to publish your review and sound clips in the RO E Mag if you would allow me to.. Kurt

Kurt, I'm glad she likes it! Feel free to use the clip however you like, it was an investment of 10 minutes on my part, I played piano and drums. I laid down the piano tracks first, then drums which is a bit of a bugger at times.

The complete chain:

Alesis QS8 keyboard via lightpipe to DDX3216--->RME Hammerfall / Nuendo

Arbiter Maple 9mm Drums (22k,14x5.5s, 12/14/16f)
Zildjian and Sabian mix of cymbals

E/V ND868 (kick)
57 (snare top)
AT4033 (snare bottom)
E/V ND468 (toms and floor)
Shure KSM32 (hi hat)
SP C4's (cardioid overhead)

into DDX3216 preamps, into RME Hammerfall via lightpipe. Some DDX3216 compression used, low end rolled off of various tracks in varying degrees, reverb added (Nuendo) C4 compressor with a quick tweak and burn.

This was a fun project that a friend and I did on a Saturday night, 12 cover songs and a couple of originals. Here's one of my " [[url=http://[/URL]="http://artists.iuma…"]Idea Tracks[/]="http://artists.iuma…"]Idea Tracks[/]" consisting of the piano and drums again. Any comments are welcome, I'm trying to make a real song out of this idea.

I will get back to you on using the review, are you talking about the "RO Reviews" at the top of the home page? I'm confused, my post count ought to tell you I'm not here as much as some others... :) I appreciate the comments on my playing. You're right, it's still mostly about the music no matter what! Maybe Treena would like to lay down some bass on my idea track???

Warren

If what Kurt is saying is true, then I think there's a value-based judgement that should be made on the worth of the B* product line. As a whole, unlike Kurt, I don't have a problem with any prosumer line. If it allows a company extra capital to improve in the R & D departments and raise the bar higher on high-end equipment ( could that be what focusrite is doing?) then I think its good practice and smart business. If its their target audience and the audience thinks Shite is shinola then its the consumer's fault for being ignorant. They should do their homework.
But tone is a very subjective thing and it is VERY easy to think something sounds "harsh", "brittle" , "edgy" through our Western-European ears and therefore discredit it.

Because its based on the tones of Chinese language, all of Chinese musical culture has a similar edge to my ears ( I don't think I'm the only one). Have you heard Chinese instruments? Chinese opera sounds like s%$^ if I am listening for Puccini or Verdi. The same goes for Chinese pop music. It makes Michael Bolton sound like Lou Rawls.
Could it possibly be that their gear isn't designed for Camaro drivin',gun wielding, uhmericans? Are americans the only people recording on this planet? The fact that they market it heavily here is a credit to their ability to market all electronics in general at a low cost. Do you think its possible that they market it in Asia as well? If their inexpensive production is accomplished by slave labor behind closed doors, then lets get that out in the open and discredit them. If its a piece of equipment that is unreliable and breaks down regularly, get that info out. If it has an edgy sound and that's not what you're looking for, by all means pass on the info so others who are looking for that euro, analog-type warmth won't buy it. But if it accomplishes a task at a reasonable level at an inexpensive price, why not leave it alone?

BTW - I like warm, fat euro tones so I wouldn't put B* anywhere in my recording loop. But I have used a B* mixer live, stuck with heavy-duty velco onto a sliding rack shelf for the last 2.5 years without even a minor problem. It has been carried sideways, upside down, tipped over, bumped, etc... and still works without error. Its "brittle" edge allows my vocals to cut through a 17 piece big band or any number of combo gigs with an assortment of instruments. I get enough warmth with my mic and JBLs. I'm happy I didn't pay more for a different mixer. But I will have trouble keeping it if the conditions Kurt describes turn out to be true.
my .02 ( seeing as how long this post is its probably more like .06)
Phil

These are serious allegations about forced labor. I have never read such an accusation before this post. If I ever find out that it's true, I'll never buy from them again. For all I know, Behringer and 797 Audio could both be using forced slave labor, I've never visited either plant, and neither would want to admit it.

I'm going to treat this as a rumor at this point, because it's completely unsubstantiated. Rumors and hearsay can be very harmful, and I hope that until any real info arrises that others will leave these rumors alone. Unfortunately, in China, getting information such as this could prove damn near impossible on any of their labor tactics and dealings with fat cat American and German business owners alike who are milking that country for their own profit and nothing more. When we have no more jobs left in the US, and they've got nobody else to sell product to, the attitude of "gee my competitor's doing it so we have to" might change.

Damn I hate getting involved in these overseas labor posts! :)

Warren

Kurt,

This is a recurring issue of great interest to many of us. Sorry if you've done this before, and I missed it. But would you mind posting the source of the slave-labor allegations that you have referred to on repeated occasions?

I'm not expecting you to prove anything, just share your source for the allegations.

Right now the link that I posted to Talk Bass is the best I can do. Treena is actually the one who found this stuff before. However, some of it was from the Mackie site and this last week Mackie settled some of the litigation and they cleared all the lawsuit info off their site. Treena has promised me she will research this tonight and post some info for all of you.

But let me say this. As has been pointed out, at best labor practices in China are abysmal. This is one reason I have a problem with a lot of the Chinese mics and gear. There was a long thread and discussion about Studio Projects equipment about a year ago here. You all can go back and look at that if you wish.

Even in the best situations, the situation is less that ideal. The use of prison labor is a common practice in China. 797, the company that manufactures Rode and Studio Projects parts to name a few doesn't use prison labor and actually is one of the best companies to work for in China and basically has an open door policy as far as I know. But Behringer has been very secretive and as I stated, will not allow Westerners access to the companies factories. They are hiding something and as we all know, it ain't their designs. I don't think it is a huge leap to connect the dots and come up at least a strong case of suspicion. Now I agree that people shouldn’t be painted with a broad brush unjustly but we are discussing human rights here and I don't know about the rest of you but I personally would rather make an error on the side of caution. I am not the only person who has made these allegations, these rumors have been circulating for a while now. I think it is reasonable to suspect the worse when it comes to labor practices in China and if a manufacturer wishes to prove they are not engaging in this kind of thing, they should reveal, as Alan Hyatt did, the source of their manufacturing and open the doors of their facilities. So far Behringer has not chosen to do this so I choose to think the worst until they prove otherwise. This is a company that has already shown a lack of ethics on many other issues, what would make this any different?

The link at Talk Bass States:

As with many Asian made products. It depends on who is running the QC. If the QC is doing their job properly. Asians can made a lot of very fine products.

Go read some financial news. The writing is stone crafted in the granite face on Mt. Rushmore already.

This is just some guy mentioning that slave labor in China is more a myth than truth. He also believes that Wal Mart in the US is the biggest offender of all. He also states that Behringer gear is fine.

Not trying to flame here, but I'm curious as to how any of this is relevant to Behringer. This is also just some guy, not an apparent researcher or even anyone who's been to China. It's the only mention of slave labor I can find on the referenced post. This guy paints a happy picture of life in China, opposed to making 10x more in the US.

Just my opinion, please don't get flamed up...but I'd like to know how this is evidence of wrong doing by Behringer or anyone for this matter. I would also like to find any other statements even on the web concerning Berhinger's secret factory practices so I could read that as well. Thanks! :)

Warren

Yes that was a reply from a guy named "Slugworth". His answer only confirms his ignorance of forced prison labor in China. I am not going to do your research for you but this is an absolute fact. If you want, just ask Amnesty International. Forced prison labor is a widely implemented institution in China. That is a fact. Treena says you should try following some of the links that were in that thread..

[ October 26, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Kurt Foster ]

I've read about the China slave labor practices in Newsweek and Time Magazines. Does Behringer do this? I don't know. But all of their other businees ethics would lead me to believe that they would likely do this and not have a problem sleeping at night if it meant an increase in profits.

But at the same time there are many other companines, and some of those are big U.S. compaines that do exploit places like China for labor. So if you boycott Behringer for that specific reason it is only fair that you no longer buy clothes, shoes, appliances as well as any other item that is a great bargin because the bargins and cheap prices come from companies that make their products someplace where they can easily take shortcuts in being fare with who and how they use their production labor.

Kurt, I wasn't implying I wanted anyone else to do my research, please forgive me if I came across that way! :)

I did some internet searches and found no connection between Behringer and slave labor. By using the same methods that others are implementing to sling this accusation around (aka "surfing the web"), I have concluded that Behringer is being unjustly held to a different light than PMI, Levi's or NADY. I think the folks who are throwing this around are pure and simple Behringer haters. I find the Talk Bass thread interesting in which many folks ask "Why not be mad at all the Fender ripoffs going on, but Behringer is held to a different light?" Thanks for linking me there, it's a valid point.

I really and truly don't like getting involved in threads like this, but the bashing's got to stop as far as slave labor. "I wouldn't put it past them" is not a valid argument, it's a smear. I have used shitty Behringer gear as well (ended up on eBay!), and anyone who has used a defective piece of Behringer gear has every right to bash it. The problem is, folks that are bashing them are just passing along a message they read somewhere else.

Please don't take me as a "flamer" :p , I truly popped in to give my two cents worth to the original poster! There is a difference between not wanting to recommend gear brands (ie Behringer) and using distortions to steer folks clear. If Behringer were as trigger happy with the lawyers as some other companies, they'd have a field day in here!

Best of luck with your gear purchase!

Warren

Well, it had to happen sooner or latter. I have found the first Behringer product that seems worth owning. I might just break down and buy one. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.musician…"]Check this out.[/]="http://www.musician…"]Check this out.[/]

I bought one when they were much more expensive...$4.99. It's a cool item and is cheap enough to throw across the room to a drummer and if he doesn't catch it, oh well.

Warren :)