That's too low a budget for full length CD - you need to track, edit, overdub, edit some more, mix and master.

No studio worth using can do all of that for 4k. Not unless they are giving away services for some special reason. Even if cut the album 'live' you'll still need to spend about $1,500 for REAL mastering.

If you are extremley well rehearsed, have sparse instrumentation, and can setup and record 'live off the floor' and add an overdub or two after, it is possible. Two days recording, one day mixing. That' would be about as much as you could get. 1500 per day should get you into a decent studio with a good engineer with an assistant. Live off the floor. Add a grand or two for some mastering. Another 500 for a few CD's with artwork.

Prices vary with location.

Even if the whole project fails, the two or three days experience working with pro's will give you some real insight to the whole thing. Then you can spend anothere five grand on some home studio stuff, and carry on with life.

Yeah, the purpose of demoing every song and narrowing it down that way is to hopefully save some time. We will be rehearsed and ready, but we will want to add some overdubs for sure. So I can postpone until we ca raise about $5000, but that's going to be close to our limit.

Any ideas on choosing the studio?

Here's another suggestion. If you have a reasonable home studio and are somewhat proficient, you should record and overdub everything at home. Then find yourself a popular and competent producer/engineer to mix your project, at your "studio" or theirs. Leave the mastering for a mastering engineer before replication. The bulk of your recording comes from the performance, that you already know how to do. Unless you go into a top-rated studio, most affordable studios will have the same equipment you have with an engineer that has the same amount of experience you have. Make sense?

You get who you pay for
Ms. Remy Ann David

Remy,
That's a great point. The biggest thing I'm worried about is not having adequate gear. For example, in my mic closet, I have 3 SM58s, 1 SM57, a pair of MXL condensors and a couple of cheapo large diaphram condensors. As for preamps, I use what is onboard the Tascam FW1884. Still sound like a good idea to do it at home? It does put getting started closer to our reach. Would I be able to shore up the home studio for about half of my budget (e.g. get a couple of better mics for $1500)?

Well you could borrow or rent gear with an as needed fashion.

For instance, you are overdubbing bass tracks, well maybe for a couple days you could rent a kick butt DI or bass rig.

The best thing about a DIY record in a home studio is that you can take forever and a day not have to worry about the clock. yup.

Its a good thing bands dont realize this or more of us would be out of business. :shock:... and I'm only half joking. :shock:

Also, "smart" bands, IMO, do EPs and try to get picked up by a label and let the label foot the bill for a full length.

CircuitRider, I really think you only need to buy a bigger bag of SM57's. I have made a lot of recordings with a lot of bands along with a lot of live broadcasts. I make fabulous recordings and most of the microphones used are SM57/58 and very few condenser microphones. Mostly just a pair on drum overheads which have frequently been Shure SM 81's small capsule condenser's. The TASCAM interface, treated kindly, with gain adjusted for maximum headroom should be more than adequate to make a fine recording. Good recordings, made in good studios, by good engineers always employed good headroom for maximum transients. (Transients, not street people) People frequently push modest equipment too hard. That's what sounds bad most of the time. It's not the $80 microphones, they're good! It's the $80 preamplifiers that's pushed too hard. Avoid that and you will be in the pocket, along with your money.

I actually prefer a lot of rock-and-roll vocals on the SM58 to any mediocre condenser microphone. Plus the venerable dynamic microphone actually offers a certain amount of bandwidth limiting. In that, sound that is mostly beyond recorded usefulness, i.e. the lowest frequencies and the uppermost highest frequencies, are largely eliminated making for a cleaner tighter recording with less leakage and separation problems when you are tracking the whole band together. I know this because I have specialized in mostly live recording with my remote truck. Of course, it's nice having my 36 input Neve console and 16 additional API microphone preamplifiers but I've done lovely work also with broken 20-year-old Peavey PA consoles. If perhaps you wanted better microphone preamplifiers, I've heard nothing but good things about the Mackie Onyx, available as standalone preamplifiers or integrated into their numerous mixers. The Presonus microphone preamplifiers have also gotten good notices. A good investment and less than a studio session at a mediocre studio with a mediocre console.

A couple of reasonable price compressor/limiters I think is a good investment for you also. Good for tracking when "less is more" is employed. I personally feel it's better to track a little compression than none at all on vocals, basses, snare and kick, keyboards, saxophones, I guess I like tracking a lot of compression. I have DBX's 160's, 165's (old and rare) and 166's (inexpensive and plentiful). I also have fine old vintage UREI LA3A's, LA 4's and numerous 1176's but I use those interchangeably with the 166's. They are all different but they're all good. Unfortunately those older vintage units are a little harder for a smaller studio to justify the expense of but that wouldn't stop me if I didn't have them.

You say you have a pair of MXL's and a pair of cheapo large diaphragm condensers? And you don't think the MXL's are cheapo's? So you're talking about NADY's? Or some other Russian or Chinese thingies? Either way, you have the tools necessary to cut some good tracks. If you contract an engineer to mix and they're not happy with some of your tracks, I'm sure they could fix you right up with the equipment you have on hand. If you need help when tracking, we'll be here to help you through the process.

Looking forward to hearing your tracks.
Ms. Remy Ann David

I can take that job

I'm not that close to the Southern East coast of the US, but I'm not in Europe either, I work a bit down south, in Valencia, Venezuela. But I'll be happy to record your proyect at a price inside your budget limits if you're willing to come down here. My email is cosmeliccardo@hotmail.com, you can write or add me in msn messenger whenever you like and I can show you some of my work and tell you a bit more about the studio.

Assuming that you're doing contemporary type music that will actually qualify for airplay (ie: Coldplay, Aerosmith, Train,3 doors down etc) Then basically you're wanting to create a better demo than what you can do at home. (which I guess we could call the Demo of the Demo) This puts you in a better position to shop the project to labels and in the meantime, sell to fans, get some airplay etc.
You're in competion with a lot of other artists doing the same thing. In the end you're going to spend close to 8K. Oh,you might start out spending the 4k as planned, but somewhere between the final mix and the pressing, you'll realize that a lot of details got overlooked. Some things need remixing, replayed, maybe you finally realize why the studio was so inexpensive. Now you want to redo things in a better studio.And if you discover these things AFTER you've pressed the CD's, .... Well... may your diety of choice have mercy on your wallet.
Anyway, Do this, and you'll sleep better at night.
1- Pick 2 songs that are similar. And pick 2 studio's in your area that you feel comfy with.
2- Record basic tracks for the songs in each studio(1 song each). Concentrate on a good drum take. Scratch bass and voc, or gtr and voc can play along, but concentrate on the drums.
3- Take this back to the home studio and fill in the rest of the parts and mix.
4- Compare the 2 mixes, and pick one of the studios.
5- In that studio, Record basic tracks for half the songs.
6- back at the home studio, fill in the rest.
7- Go back to the studio and record the vocals for a couple of songs. (don't try to do marathon sessions- at this level of production it's all in the details and you just can't keep up that level of concentration all day long)
8- Get good ruf mixes, and start replacing in the studio any tracks that just didn't cut it from home.
9- continue this process until done and happy.
This is A LOT OF WORK to be sure. And it will take patience and time. Hopefully, during this time, finances will continue flow in and you won't need to outlay a pile of cash in a weekend.
Now, in the end, you're still going to spend close to 8 grand. And if we're talking about a typical 14 song Cd, that comes to less than 600.00/song.
And I say, that's very economical for a quality production.

As usual, Remy, your post was DEAD-on, right on the money. I wish more people thought that way. With all the gear-snobbery out there, it's no wonder people think they can't record with simply GOOD gear, vs. outstaning, top of the line stuff. (Frankly, IMHO most "Good" gear available today has better specs than some "Great" gear of 20 years ago.)

My first live pro sound gig in 1976 was limited to 10 SM57's and 6 SM58's, plus a couple of really banged up condensers. We made it all work, indeed. I had a friend open a studio around here a few years back, and his budget only included a handful of mics, most of them SM57's. Didn't matter; the guy KNEW how to make it all work, and the tracks sounded great.

The point is, one CAN make great recordings - even if they're only demos - with some pretty basic stuff, at least while one is learning. I'd take Stickers advice, and do it yourself, at least for now, get a good demo done, and then see where you're at.

I think I'm convinced, Remy. We had a long discussion last night, and agreed that we don't want to spend the entire budget tracking in a studio only to find that we could have nailed it better in the living room. We have actually found a couple of places that have some basic equipment and some good room treatment that we can use for cheap where we may do some tracking. We'll probably bring some mics and our own gear and put in a few days that way, but we'll basically just be paying for space and an isolated no-distraction environment. We can kick down for two or three more 57s and maybe get a pair of 81s for over the drums. I'll look for a deal on at least one dbx 166 compressor. That allows us to get started much sooner. I'll probaby have lots of questions and may see if a couple of you could listen to a raw track of a vocal or the drums, but I'm confident that we can produce a good product this way.

CircuitRider, I don't think you will fall short of your goals and ideals? You are starting the right way, on the right note.

Thanks again for your support JoeH! I love ya'!

And just think, after you cut all of your tracks, and you know the performances are good, you're mixing engineer may choose to jump into his own ProTools rig, slap on a bunch of cool plug-ins and give you a product that you thought was impossible. There are lots of microphone emulation plug-ins that frequently require a SM57/58 to be used as the source microphone. From that microphone, they have the ability to model almost any popular any "high-end" microphone sound imaginable. So if you're on the right track!

Check back regularly for tips and suggestions while you're in the process.
Ms. Remy Ann David

I'm not that close to the Southern East coast of the US, but I'm not in Europe either, I work a bit down south, in Valencia, Venezuela. But I'll be happy to record your proyect at a price inside your budget limits if you're willing to come down here. My email is cosmeliccardo@hotmail.com, you can write or add me in msn messenger whenever you like and I can show you some of my work and tell you a bit more about the studio.

What kind of desperate spam is this? Why would they spend half their budget getting the band members and equipment down to Venezuela? :roll:

Anyway, I think I will go against the prevailing wisdom so far in this thread and recommend doing your album in a real studio. It will be faster, you can focus on the performance part rather than trying to get all the technical details right, the pressure of the studio clock running can sometimes invoke extra "magic" moments of the performance by causing you to take on a more serious mindset, and I'm willing to bet the end result will be a good deal better than DIY. You should be able to find deals in scheduling large blocks of studio time; maybe find special deals for late night blocks. If you rehearse your songs a ton so that all the parts are tight (if not, maybe don't bother with a studio?), I would recommend recording drums/gtrs/bass all at the same time to seperate tracks. Of course you will need a studio that has enough iso rooms for this, but a lot of times this gives the parts an extra bit of cohesiveness with eachother. Then go back and do a few overdubbed instruments if necessary, and vocals of course. If you can't get all that done for about $2000, either the talent isnt there, or you went to a studio that is way out of your league, or you just got a crappy deal. Then put the rest of your budget towards mixing and mastering.

...

I'd like to know your definition of a real studio, have you ever even seen the studio that I work for?, have you ever heard my work to know what I do? and the quality of my work?, my price doesn't describe my work, it's just cheaper because everything is cheaper here than in the US, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't make destructive crticism about something you know nothing about. I was only making a suggestion, it's not desprate, I just saw that their budget fits with my price AND their travel costs.

Is this album something you want to sell on?

If so, track the kit professionally (in a good space, studio etc) on analog tape with someone who KNOWS DRUMS and get it transferred to whatever format you're working on. It will be less expensive than the weeks spent trying to emulate the sound.

Then track whatever other shit you like wherever and get someone who has MIXED RECORDS to look at the results.

Hand the finished product to someone who KNOWS MASTERING.

If you don't know people like this or can't afford to hire their time, your record will go down the pan sonically, and be at best a good DIY attempt, not in any way a "killer sound", or something a label will pick up on.

No offense, but I doubt you will get releasable results with that gear. (I'd love to be proved wrong here). If the record is the real issue put the funds into that, it will be there forever, to hell with the rest.

good luck!

Cosme, I wasn't insinuating that you didn't run a "real" studio; it just seems like a rediculous proposal to me that they should spend a couple thousand bucks getting 4 dudes and all their gear down there, maybe have to take time off from their day jobs to get the recording/mixing/mastering process done while they are down there. Typically only larger budget recordings can afford to take an out of state (or in this case, out of country) vacation for a few days(weeks?) in order to work on an album. Or maybe you are willing to work for $20/day and pay for their lost wages or something. As you say, I don't know you; so, whatever dude.

Circuit Rider, check out his work and see if it is worth the hassle to go down there. Maybe it is; I don't know.

Hey, it might be crazy, but it might work. You never know without at least trying; the worst anyone can say is: "Thanks, but no thanks."

When an artist(s) is young, hungry, and fairly unencumbered with family, job, entourage, etc., sometimes things like that (a trip to another country) can happen. It could be an adventure as well, if it's the kind of thing that the musicians could do (Travel on their own dime) for the experience and sheer helluvit. It's kind've an artistic roll of the dice, as well...sometimes recording projects are deeply influenced by locations they're recorded in. (The story about the making of Deep Purple's 'Smoke on the Water' is one that comes to mind, ditto for McCartney's Band on the Run...)

There's a very good case to be made for artists doing their best work while they're still innocent, hungry and willing to suffer for their art. Who knows? I wish I was young and naive enough to take a month off and go record somewhere far far away. 8-)

Unfortunately, going to Venezuela is not an option for us. I do appreciate the consideration, though, Cosme. And it would be one hell of an experience, I'm sure. Hell, maybe the next project. We're going to stay within driving distance for this one. Everyone is pretty attached to their own rigs and we have some pretty heavy stuff. I think we're going to go with a combination of Remy and alimoniack's suggestions. We'll get a scratch track of drums and redo them in a studio if nescessary.

Just a word of warning, I would HIGHLY recommend against rerecording drums to your main gtr/vocal tracks. Any of the bands that I have worked with that have tried, never have good results. It never seems to be as tight as getting your drum tracks set in stone, and then recording the "fiddly bits" over them (or record live all together works too). But I guess you'll figure something out...

Yeah, I've run into that problem before. Ususally we'll record scratch drums or lay a Reason drum track in first if we are planning to re-record the drums.

Just to second Reggies warning...

If you get a better sound with your drummer playing to a click, then fine.

A drummer and band who play well live should lay as many instruments down simultaneously as possible. If you record initial live takes in a decent studio you might be able to keep a lot of the parts - saving hassle/cash and getting a better "swing" etc. Works for every band we track.

It depends on the material and the drummer of course, I had a band in recently where the drummer played to a backing of samples (from Reason, but tracked to analog tape) - he'd done it live at gigs many times before. The guitars went down simultaneously, if they worked they'd be kept, if not, still good as scratches to make sure drums had good tuning & timing etc. In the end they didn't have to re-track anything, couple of takes and they were on to vocals and extras.

As a general rule, make sure the finished live drums sound/feel right first, against scratches of other instruments, then get your killer gtr sounds up. You don't want to track lots of stuff and then go, "Hang on, this seems like it's the wrong speed with live drums on it now!". I suppose you're demo'ing the stuff so that gives you something to go on.

You may have experience of this type of risk already, just thought I'd mention it because I've had a couple of awful experiences with tempo in the past! Good luck.

My band just started recording 2 songs on our own and so far so good. We figured that we would spend about $400-$500 on 2 songs in a studio and decided to use that money and purchase missing pieces we needed to track on our own. We have recorded 2 times before in different studios, and for the price we figured why not try it ourselves. Keep in mind that I already had a G5 mac with Logic 7 and Reason 3--so that helps. But we only spend $410 and picked up what remaining gear we needed to get started. And we are recording 6 drum mics at once on 6 separate channels.

I would recomend this to bands who want unlimited studio time to record and write. It can be really fun, and it can help you develop your music and if you aren't satisfied you simple try again. Anyways, if you want a gear list or anything let me know and I will put a link up when we are finished.

Tony

$5000. Say it with me now -- slowly...

FIVE -- THOUSAND -- DOLLARS...

What shall I buy?

A "mid-grade" set of wheels and tires for a "mid-grade" Porsche? A "cheap" recording console(Maybe an "s", instead of an SSL?).? A "short week" in the Bahamas for two? Sounds, to me, like a veritable fortune, though it "might" get me a new roof for my half a double, house? I know it WOULD NOT get me the single channel mic preamp I want + the mic..... Crap.

If it was me......

Well, first, if it was me I'd call-up any of several friends and tell them what I wanted to spend and ask them what I could do for it and they'd tell me(Maybe the only advantage to being in and around the biz for 30+ years?). For sure, I'd get what I wanted for 5 G's... Nice, too. May have to work "off-times", clear the room for "real customers", hitch hike to the studio, etc., may take weeks or months... or years, but I'd get it done for the 5 G's.

YOU could do the same and you really don't have to know anyone at all. Call around, tell each studio you have 5000 dollars to spend on a "completed" album -- How much? NO! Ask them "How will we do this?" Let them talk for awhile. If you can hold the line and they can turn down 5 grand, they're W-A-Y out of your league anyway... Move on to the next studio on the list.

OR.

Pick a studio, however you want to pick a studio(Best selection of drinks in the fridge!). Go in and record 5 songs - FINISH "the best" 3 songs - you'll have fun picking! Master/cover art/press CD's/put 'em on your website. You now have a NICE 3 song demo, which you can shop around or sell for a "3 song album" price! Better yet, give 'em away to your fans and be glad you have some. It's an investment, it's something you want to do, it's fun, it cannot be a "major label deal"(Not if the budget was 50 grand, sorry.)... If it helps get you get a record contract? Maybe that would be nice - and that, my musical friend, is a BIG "maybe"...

Go to a nice studio, enjoy the experience, make everything "nice". Save lots of CD's for your grandchildren(They'll think it's "really weird". They won't be able to play it, but hey?)...

TG

If you like, tell 'em you want to do it for 3 grand..... Settle on 4 and spend the other grand on a set of really "wonderful" speaker cables for the home stereo.....? At least one for the right channel? Or at least a couple of super-duper connectors?(Have a drawing to see which band member gets them/it.). Sad how far a $1000 doesn't go these days.

John Mayer(Meyer?) has a "3 song album" to listen to(I'm just guessing they're from his new album? Didn't say?), for free, on his website! He has a video, though(More money -- bet those 3 songs, alone, cost more than 5 G's to make!?!? Shouldn't have...). Truth to tell? I didn't need any more than the first few bars of John's work to not sell me..... Too political(Yawn.). For my money, the second song was a waste of roof money.

Hey, Remy. I'm getting a slow start at this, but I'm going to run through a couple of demo versions first. I got an old dbx 166 and an AT4033, so the vocals should at least be a bit more detailed. I'm also using a Digimax for preamps as opposed to the FW-1884 preamps. I have yet to get to trying out different configurations for recording the drums, but I'm a little more confident that I'll be able to get some decent results. Any last minute tips? This 166 seems a little noisy, but I like the sound better than the software compressors I'm used to.

Just an update -

After rehearsing for the past few months and experimenting within my limits, we decided to find a decent facility away from home (and away from cellphones and girlfriends and dayjobs, etc.). So we shove off for Boston tonight to spend a week in a studio where we can cut everything live and come back to overdub the extras. I may transfer the entire project home afterward, depending on how much we get accomplished.

At any rate, as much as I love recording, I'm very excited to have someone else running the session. Pushing the faders and playing the songs all while keeping the band on track is exausting.

Soooo, wish us luck!

Good luck!

Warning: Getting a good home studio recording takes a whoooooole lot more than buying equipment.

I've been doing it since the early 70s and still am figuring out what I'm doing. There's a lot to be said for having professionals guide you.

OK, the absolute cheapest way to record (I should not be telling you this as a studio owner, but hey, I'm in Scotland so I figure it's OK) is like this

1. Practice those songs until you are 100% perfect.

2. Pick a good tracking studio (that is not in the middle of a city where you have to pay for the location) with good kit, no cheap mics and budget desks but good stuff and of course everything that you need by way of instruments and backline. I STRONGLY recommend you look for a studio with Radar-24 for tracking as this will give you the quality and the speed (cut down costs) you are looking for.

3. Track drums and bass first and then do the rest with two goes at vocals on different days.

4. Take the project with you as a series of WAV files on DVD-R.

5. Get the whole thing edited in ProTools or similar by someone cheap and good using their own home stuff. There is no need for a studio for editing.

6. Go to a local studio with good monitors and desk and spend two days mixing.

7. Get it mastered by someone who is good and yet prepared to do it for a set price. Here look out for B&W speakers and a treated room, not some kid in an attic.

Tracking should cost $3,000, editing maybe $1,000 and mastering about the same max.

OK, the absolute cheapest way to record (I should not be telling you this as a studio owner, but hey, I'm in Scotland so I figure it's OK) is like this

1. Practice those songs until you are 100% perfect.

2. Pick a good tracking studio (that is not in the middle of a city where you have to pay for the location) with good kit, no cheap mics and budget desks but good stuff and of course everything that you need by way of instruments and backline. I STRONGLY recommend you look for a studio with Radar-24 for tracking as this will give you the quality and the speed (cut down costs) you are looking for.

3. Track drums and bass first and then do the rest with two goes at vocals on different days.

4. Take the project with you as a series of WAV files on DVD-R.

5. Get the whole thing edited in ProTools or similar by someone cheap and good using their own home stuff. There is no need for a studio for editing.

6. Go to a local studio with good monitors and desk and spend two days mixing.

7. Get it mastered by someone who is good and yet prepared to do it for a set price. Here look out for B&W speakers and a treated room, not some kid in an attic.

Tracking should cost $3,000, editing maybe $1,000 and mixing and mastering about the same max.

The most expensive way to make a CD is to buy a big pile of gear and then try to work out how to use it. That way you get to pay for the gear and for the studio as well!

Come to Detroit...

http://www.backinthelab.net

:lol:

A couple thoughts here.

1 - a budget of $4,000 should suffice. This isn't LA or New York or Cashville we're talking about. In SC, NC, VA, GA, FL, you can get some nice studios for $125 an hour. If you're well rehearsed and good to go, 2 days of solid work and 1 day of editing/mixing should be fine. That would leave you a grand for mastering.

2 - I agree with Remy that even with your modest gear, you should be able to get great results that even a decent studio should be able to work with. Often, mixing is less than tracking (especially in this part of the country).

A lot of good artists out there are rolling their own albums. There's nothing wrong with this. However, it's important for you to be present during mixing or at least work with someone whom you trust.

One question -

Have you been relatively pleased with the results you've gotten by yourself thus far and what would you like to change about your results as of yet?

Boston was great. We knocked out all of the tracking and still had time for some experimenting. I would highly recommend the studio and engineer that we used. I won't spam this board, but if you're looking in the Boston area, contact me and I'll give you the info.

So now we're looking toward mastering. As soon as we raise some more scratch, we'll knock the whole thing out. Anyone have any suggestions for duplication? I've always used Diskmakers for the commercial stuff and Diskfaktory or RL Labs for demo-level. This needs to be super high quality packaging, etc.

$3000 to $4000 dollars can get you into a very nice studio where i live. you can get a pro sounding cd for that amount of money. it wont be as good as songs on the radio, but it will be very close. as far as mastering, you dont need to spend $1500 on it. like he said thats for real mastering and youre going to pay for it. there are many other people who will do it for way less. its still going to be around $800-1000 i think for decent stuff. just look around and ask for samples from the various places before you decide.

however if youre looking into abbey road, disregard all of what i said. theres no way youre going to have enough. BUT, you can get a very very nice sounding cd for what you have if you look around a lot find out where bands you liked the tones from recorded and just keep looking for samples, until you find a place that works.