i've seen this happen before, although it is rare, esp with cassette decks.

First, I'm assuming you're talking true phase-reversal, and not just heads that are badly out of alignment. (With that phenomenom, you lose high ends and get all kinds of 'swishy" phasey sounds when stereo signals are combined to mono. Different animal entirely....)

What you're talking about sounds like truely phase-reversed signals from one channel relative to the other.

What probably happened was that during the dub, somone had an XLR cable with a mis-wired connection - pins 2 and 3 were likely reversed. (Most of the Tascam Pro Cassette decks - includin the MKIIs have balanced, XLR inputs and outputs, yes?) You'd still hear signal through this line, but it would be in fact out of phase with the other channel. Perhaps the original dupe/copy room didn't have very good monitoring - if at all - or perhaps this was a one-off copy that somene just threw together.

In any case, the music got printed onto the tape with one channel completely phase-reversed from the other. Anything in common was positive-going on one channel, and negative-going on the other. Hence the "Cancelling" effect when combined to mono.

Once he identified the problem, your guy may have fixed it the old fashioned way, with his own BALANCED, reverse-wired cable going into his A/D convereter. (Pin 1 ground, pins 2 and 3 are the actual audio +/- signal). (Take a moment and read up on Balanced vs. Unbalanced audio lines, including something called "common mode rejection" and why it's used in pro audio.)

You could do this yourself, with two XLR (mic) cables; one of them should have pins 2&3 reversed on ONE CONNECTOR only. (Assuming you have a Tascam machine with balanced ins/outs - XLR connectors. Take a look in the back; are there RCA jacks AND XLR jacks there? If so, you're good to go. You CANNOT do this with just the unbalanced RCA jacks alone).

Mark this new XLR connector so you won't forget it's been altered, and remember to undo it aftewards, or keep it around for future use, as long as it's clearly tagged. (I have one 3-foot XLR on my rack of special cables for just this sort of thing....)

If you don't have XLR outputs on the deck, you'll need to convert the RCA (unbalanced) outputs to a direct box or unbal/balanced converter before you go into your (XLR/line level) A/D inputs.

If you don't have any of that, your software MIGHT have a phase reversal toggle/switch for one of the channels. Import the (out of phase) Left and Right channels from the cassette deck as separate, mono channels, and work from there. Depending on your software, you may be able to pull it off that way as well with something as simple as phase-reverse.

As you know by now: always sum to mono to check your work!

Good luck with it. 8-)

REAPER has a real easy phase reversal toggle, and stereo splitting, etc. If it's only for one home project, I'm sure Justin wouldn't mind you using it. It's got a 30 day trial period after all.

Wow, thanks for taking time out of your day to explain that to me
Yes my tascam has in and out XLR double ports, the inputs can be switched from balanced to unbalanced

u say to be able to correctly do this at home I would need two XLR (mic) cables; one of them should have pins 2&3 reversed on ONE CONNECTOR only.
could you perhaps link me to those to buy on ebay etc? ive looked on the net and I am unsure as to what they are as I am a novice in this field
Will these leads be XLR to RCA, so they go straight into my line ins on my soundcard?

Again apology's for my lack of knowledge, The cassette I am currently digitizing when it is saved on my harddrive is played as ''surround sound'' for some reason? this RME HDSP soundcard is new and very complexed for me to understand it features a global record feature so I can monitor levels and allows me to set the sample and bit rates, but it dosent allow the change to mono stereo etc, what am I doing wrong here? when Its finished recording and I go to save it give me several option ie: save all channels, save multi file, 2 channel files etc..

should cassette & vinyl be digitized to mono? and then changed to stereo when dithering down?
I have no pre-amp in my setup, the cassette goes into my soundcard and the monitors out for playback

would relaly appreciate some understanding to this, thanks so much thus far, this is a woinderful forum

I know the quick fix, I don't know the pro audio version, I think Joe has laid it out enough that it's doable and will turn out nicer his way, but if you want a quick and dirty bit, I can get you started... Hit Radio shack, pick up a cheap RCA-1/8' adapter, or a nice one, but no sense in putting too much money into it, wire that into the output jacks of your tape deck, then from that into the *LINE* in on your soundcard - NOT THE MICROPHONE IN. Pull up whichever program you're using to record, audacity or kristal or reaper will work fine for this. Start recording off your line in jack, punch play, dub it over to your computer, and go to town digitally, splitting it from stereo to two panned mono tracks, flip the phase, and put them back together. You might lose a lot of quality, but it'll get you started at least. Good luck!

Nathan

one of them should have pins 2&3 reversed on ONE CONNECTOR only.
could you perhaps link me to those to buy on ebay etc?

No, Joe stated that one might have the polarity flipped in your setup currently - that's the problem. Both cables should be identical (not phase flipped).

Neither should be flipped (or reversed, depending on your nomenclature).

Edit> OK, Joe did say to flip one of them - as a test.
(Sorry Joe). Anyway, I'm guessing that one is already flipped - or whatever method you used to interconnect the gear is the problem.

Could be a balanced / unbalanced mismatch, in that case use the exact same cables and adapters on both channels as I mention below and you should be right as rain.

For further info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29

should cassette & vinyl be digitized to mono? and then changed to stereo when dithering down?

No, record them in as either discreet (separate) L/R tracks or a stereo track.

Go out of the XLR line outs on the back of the player into the main L/R inputs of the sound card - you may need an XLR to RCA adapter (or 1/8" stereo adapter as stated above).

Depending on your setup, along with the XLR cables, you'll need two of the following:

RCA Inputs:
link removed

or

1/8" Inputs:
link removed

my sound card has L/R Line ins so i take it this would be ok? XLR female - RCA male
http://www.teptronics.com/pyproppdu5ft1.html?productid=pyproppdu5ft1&channelid=SHOPC
btw I never made these cassettes they are from interscope & priority records etc, official demos and samplers

really appreciate that bent & basilbowman, so always record as stereo (got it)
this particular cassette is turning out to be a nightmare, i had noticed changes in the sound quality from time to time and didnt realise what it was, but discovered that on my tascam cassette deck dispaly its changing every 5 minutes or so to cr02 and then back to normal cassette, normal being the setting it should be set at and the best sound quality for, any ideas what this might be?
many thanks

I think you guys are all confused?

Back in the day, because head azimuth was difficult to maintain, especially for cassette decks. Another company out West, called Pacific Recorders, or something like that decided to MS multiplex the left and right signals for their NAB cartridge machines. This solved the problem with mono compatibility and poor phasing. It was probably also utilized for cassette archives to maintain proper phase alignment. So what you have there is an MS encoded cassette.

Poor azimuth then becomes wondering stereo with solid phase & mono compatibility. So try decoding these tapes as if they were recorded MS. Left will most likely be Middle. Right will most likely be Side. If you don't get a solid sense of center, try reversing your left and right prior to matrix decoding.

If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask me.

MS girl
Ms. Remy Ann David

this could be a very good call from Remy

these cassettes
" ... mainly demos and in house record label references etc ... "

what sort of program material is this ?
pop music
or acoustic classical sort of stuff ?

if this is an MS recording
then qudos to a very wise Remy for seeing past the too obvious
8-)

Ya be makin' too much sense, Remy :)

The MS-encoded theory is a nice idea but it doesn't quite fit the reported symptoms. The OP said when he sums the channels to get mono, "most of the center information disappears". MS-encoding when summed to mono gives 2L if the encoded tracks were in phase or 2R if they were out of phase, never L-R, which is what you get from summing conventional LR with a phase inversion on one channel. Now it may be that the monoed sound actually is 2L or 2R, and the OP got the impression that the original centre image was missing rather than a whole L or R channel. I think I would try a phase reversal on one replay channel first to see if that restores the correct sound image.

The second thing that worries me is the recommendation to feed the Tascam 122 XLR outs directly into a computer sound card. The +6dBu level at these outputs is likely to overwhelm a standard sound card, irrespective of the balanced/unbalanced question. My memory of when I last used a Tascam 122 is that it has additional outputs at -10dBV on RCA (phono) connectors, so I would say the best thing to do is to use a simple stereo RCA-RCA lead into the soundcard, digitize the tapes as they are and then perform the phase flip or whatever is required as a post-processing operation. It doesn't take sophisticated software - even Audacity will do the job.

Kev wrote:
what sort of program material is this ?

Hip Hop from 1993-1994

thanks remy and boswell, much obliged
I dont want to do much post processing on these recording as im trying to get the very best sound
their is no harm trying all ways to see exactly what the problem with this cassette is, great advice..

their is a breakout cable for my RME soundcard that I can purchase that feature XLR input, also in my soundcard setting I am able to choose +4db to compensate for the stronger signal

question: will using XLR from cassette to soundcard yield better results for digitizing rather then RCA?

also if anyone has any ideas why this cassette is changing the tape type from Normal to Cr02 on my tascam display? Cr02 being the incorrect setting and it makes the sound awful. I would be very grateful. thanks guys you're wonderfull

Normal to Cr02 switching...

It's probably a dirty contact on the tape-selector switch inside the door of the player.

Do your tapes have an extra bit of gap next to the record protect knock outs on top?

If you use the XLR outs that I recommended, select +4 on your soundcard - and thank Boswell for catching that faux pas on my part.

question: will using XLR from cassette to soundcard yield better results for digitizing rather then RCA?

Yeah

^^ Thanks for the confirmation Basilbowman. and there I was using RCA the whole time, not knowing that XLR would give a better signal for digitizing cassettes. I suppose all the crap printed on the internet is misleading telling people to digitize with RCA, but if your card or cassette deck dosent have XLR ports then I suppose youve no choice
I better buy the breakout cable for my soundcard that has XLR ports, that way I'll get the best volume and signal from these cassettes

bent wrote:

It's probably a dirty contact on the tape-selector switch inside the door of the player.

I just cleaned the switches with some alcohol, thanks

Do your tapes have an extra bit of gap next to the record protect knock outs on top?

no the gap seems the same as all my other tapes, although its completely flat all the way across the rest of the top unlike my other cassettes that have some grooves in the middle. maybe i could fill the record knockouts with paper? might select properly then?

If you use the XLR outs that I recommended, select +4 on your soundcard - and thank Boswell for catching that faux pas on my part.

Ill purchase the breakout cable for my soundcard, and digitize everything via XLR from now on. I know thanks Boswell you're a legend in your own lunchtime

Just remember to flip phase on one side if you're going to use standard XLR cables, otherwise you're no better off than when you started.

Nathan

westy wrote: [quote=Kev]
what sort of program material is this ?

Hip Hop from 1993-1994

mmmm
:roll:
gut feeling tells me that this is probably not an MS recording

get another cassette deck for a test

get a real test cassette to check the deck you have
these test tones can then be transfered to the DAW
allowing you to check frequency and phase (and polarity)
and levels for both the XLR and RCA outputs

if you don't have equipment
zoom in on the wave form to see the alignment of the start of the tone and the polarity etc
there may be a plug-in to show actual frequency of the tones
the DAW level meters should give a good representation of the levels of the tones
might also give you a chance to check wow and flutter

Kev wrote: [quote=westy][quote=Kev]
what sort of program material is this ?

Hip Hop from 1993-1994
mmmm
:roll:
Appreciate your input, but a roll of eyes at a legendary hiphop artist who died over 12 years ago and left behind a lifetime of work in the short space of 4 years is not to be sniffed at.

Kev wrote: get a real test cassette to check the deck you have
these test tones can then be transfered to the DAW
allowing you to check frequency and phase (and polarity)
and levels for both the XLR and RCA outputs

would this suffice? and to also use to adjust the azimuth of my deck if needs be?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150216868410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

Kev wrote: [if you don't have equipment
zoom in on the wave form to see the alignment of the start of the tone and the polarity etc
there may be a plug-in to show actual frequency of the tones
the DAW level meters should give a good representation of the levels of the tones
might also give you a chance to check wow and flutter

many thanks, more great advice

the roll of the eyes wasn't because hip hop didn't require proper treatment for archiving
BUT
it is very likely that MS was NOT the chosen method of recording

if it were acoustic or classical or even some jazz then an MS was very possible

a POP or heavy metal record would also be very unlikely for an MS thang

if one is serious about archival then a spec'd up cassette deck is a must
I have even been known to use a spare cassette deck and deliberately trim it to suit the cassette tape presented
IF the tape was made on a deck that was out of alignment then a correct trim is not what you need

this is just guess work and you trim to get the best sound you can
mostly looking for a good smooth top end and hope the low end stays in tact

once the left and right are in the DAW you can bump and trim one side for a tight centre and then hope the stereo spread still holds true

hope that makes sense
sometimes you just have to use any trick you can

if more cassette archive work is in your future then a couple Audio Cassette Alignment Test Tapes will be useful

I think we've come full circle in this discussion, and have established a few important things now:

1. The Tape deck has balanced In/Out connectors. These are XLR, not TRS, so using of a pair of XLR cables to the RME interface/breakout fantail you show is indeed do-able, downright recommended.

2. The "Phase" problem is most likely inverted material on one channel vs. the other. So, assuming the azimuth is "in the ballpark", things should be ok, at least to get you started.

3. You'll get better results working with professional (+4) levels with the XLR i/o's than you would with the RCA (-10) connections.

Sooooo......you can either fix this problem on the fly - as you transfer - with ONE of the connectors in ONE of your XLR cables phase-reversed,

OR

You can fix it after the fact, by recording each channel as Mono tracks, and reversing the phase digitally, with your software. BOOM! then you're done that part of the process, and then can get down to the biz of TRULY cleaning up and restoring the tapes.

If you have any problems with the terminology, take a moment, crack a book, or go to Wikipedia and look 'em up. You should be conversant with these terms and understand them if you're going to do a proper job with these allegedy important tapes. (ESPECIALLY if you're helping to save someone's legacy!)

You should learn and understand these concepts to do the best job possible for this project:

Balanced vs. Unbalanced (and their related connectors: TRS, XLR, Pin (RCA) and so on.
Professional (elevated) +4 levels vs. consumer -10 levels.
Tape Path Cleaning & Demagetization.
Tape & Head Repro Alignment. (Azimuth, Zenith and Wrap)
Cassette Deck anamolies and pitfalls.

After you've got it all sorted out, you may find the tape is still in it's own world, alignment wise, and you may STILL have to tweak the azimuth a bit to get the best overall high frequency playback (and stereo alignment.) (Welcome to the fuzzy old world of analog tape tech service!) You can never assume the deck used to make the tapes was ever aligned or set up properly. The catch-phrase for cassette alignment standards was: "This IS NO STANDARD." Every deck I ever worked with - including the Tascam series - was FUBAR, alignment wise. You just hoped for the best, but expect the worst.

But that's another topic, for another thread.

I applaud your efforts to learn and DIY, but if these tapes are as important as you say, you may be better off taking them to a professional transfer facility, and having them do it for you - perhaps even while you watch or observe.

Good luck with the project, and have fun, regardless.

excellent post Joe

I'll get out of the way now cos I think Joe covered all of it in a balanced way
:) pun intended

I'd forgotten about the " Tape Path Cleaning & Demagetization "
just goes to show how long it's been since my brain was in tape mode.

big thanks to basilbowman, kev & Joe, excellent advice
i have demagged and cleaned the deck in preparation. i also purchased the RME Breakout & xlr leads with a phase reverse adapter from thoman yesterday, so they should be here soon. I want to do this myself as sending 20 + cassettes to get professionally done will cost alot and i feel i can achieve the same results with the equipment i own (with a little help) I will adjust the azimuth screw on the head to get best alignment possible, and have purchased one of those test tapes in preparation. I heard listening in mono would be best, what would I be listening for to know im finally near the correct azimuth? less hiss & snare portions perhaps?

Question : can one achieve professional (+4) levels with vinyl also?

Also does anyone have some good tips for cleanup and compression to really enhance them, what would be the best programme to use? I am pretty skilled with cool edit and have recently got wavearts and iZotope RX which i still need to master, but if anyone has correct settings or suggestions i would be very grateful and again thank you this is a wonderful forum with great members :D :D

vinyl ??

you have a similar issue with some vinyl recording that you want to archive ?

you will need a quality record player
good in tact needle and an RIAA EQ amp

in short this just means a normal record player but with the addition of an amplifier to bring the needle levels up to line level

there are some pro units that give balanced at +4dBu

there are some USB computer sound devices that offer the record player input

otherwise there are some dedicated record play input RIAA EQ amp with balanced +4dBu output

not sure what would be appropriate for you and your budget

as for clean up
generally I would not do any mods for the first archive
but
if you want some post clean-up versions then that's fine
IF you get better software and skills you can always revisit the original archive (digitised)

^^ thanks for that kev, Ive no problem with the vinyls phase, just wondering would XLR give me better results as opposed to RCA, I have a good Turntable and phono premap but its just got RCA in and out on both ends. do turntables come with XLR Outs? or would i just use regular RCA out from turntable into a phono pre-amp with XLR outs and that would give me professional +4dBu output? as for the cleanup process I would never touch the original files and always duplicate to cleanup and burn to cd, i have them hiss free etc but haven't been really able to give them compression to achieve that professional sound.

Good job on getting the RME, Westy.

But let's take care of one thing at a time, ok? ;-) Get your chops going with the cassette transfer, and see where you stand. You're going to learn a lot and have fun in the process.

As for the vinyl; a couple of things for when you DO get into it, although KEV has pretty much nailed it for you.

The general rule for vinyl transfer is this: if the material is commerically available elsewhere - CD remaster, etc., then it's not worth wasting your time doing on your own. If, on the other hand, you have some real need to transfer someone's private, old, or out of print vinyl collection of non-public stuf, then sure, go for it.

It's rare, though, that people ever archive their material on vinyl alone; most would at least have a reel to reel master somewhere, or even a cassette. Still, if vinyl is all you have, then you've got some work to do, as KEV has already pointed out.

From what you're asking, I suspect you still don't quite get it regarding RCA outs vs. XLR. That's not the point here. Yes, chances are you'll see RCA outputs coming from the turntable (the signal coming off a phono cartride is in microvolts, VERY Low level stuff - it has to go to a preamp first, with proper EQ). You'll also see a green "Ground" wire. You'll need to connect this to your phono preamp chassis.

If you're serious about vinyl transfer someday, then you'll need a professional Phono Preamp. In addition to the RCA inputs and ground wire lug nut, it will have balanced level outputs, perhaps a pin block, or an XLR, or even 1/4" inch TRS outs. (Although it DOES sound like you could get by with what you already have, if it's quiet enough, and you can get enough signal out of it. )

It also SHOULD have various EQ settings for various RAIA curves, from 78 RPM to 33 1/3 to 45 RPM. (Yes, there were different EQ curves for different types of vinyl recordings, depending on their use.) You can of course try to dial this in after the fact, there are some software programs that will give you these curves, or you can reproduce them from a little research on the web and Wikipedia.

Kev also mentioned proper needles - to do it right, you'll need a different stylus for 78 than you would for 33 1/3, and so on. It's not something to be taken lightly, if you're going to do it properly. (This is a whole nother thread: Conical needles vs. truncated, etc. etc.)

Once you've picked your turntable, cartridge, needles and preamps, set your levels properly and made the transfers, then you'll work on tick and pop removal, overall cleanup, etc. in the digital domain. (Personally, I would NEVER do any after the fact compression or limiting, unless it was to fix some kind of specific problem.)

Remember that vinyl recordings were mastered by expert engineers who were working in that field specifically, and the main reason vinyl recordings sound the way they do is because they were made to fit into the sonic & physical constraints of the media. Taking the recording out of that domain - by using the vinyl copy vs. a further-back tape copy, etc., you are working with a flawed, later-generation medium. It can sound OK, even great, in the right hands, with a good copy to work from, but remember what you're dealing with, and don't try to re-engineer it, should you get that far. It will NEVER sound as good as the original master tape.

Again, I'd stick with your cassette project first and see what happens. Who knows? You may find a niche career here.....

Once again Thanks Guys.
These vinyls are all 45rpm mainly 90s stuff good quality. they contain exclusive instrumentals and B-sides that were never or will never be released on cd so they're a must for me to transfer.

I have a Hagerman Bugle phono preamp with RCA IN/OUTS and a Technics SL1210MK5 TT with RCA Outs. this is a good marriage and the sound quality is excellent with ORTOFON cartridge etc. In terms of buying a professional phono preamp I would love one but couldn't afford the price tag. So

Question: could I use my Tascam cassette deck to act as an Amp and connect my phono pre to its RCA input and use the XLR outs into my soundcard, giving me professional (+4) levels? and I could adjust the gain?

I will definitely stick with my cassette project for the moment and Im dying to get my teeth into it, I feel I am capable of achieving good results with the the equipment ive acquired and the knowledge ive learned from this thread in particular. But while I have the thread open I just thought id ask some advice on my vinyl collection that ive been putting on the long finger since forever. Thanks Men

sorry to bring this thread up but I am just in the process of ripping that particular out of phase cassette. I am using balanced outputs into balanced inputs of My ADC with only one cable phase reversed, when summed to mono its a huge difference but it still seems to lack volume on one channel
here's a photo of the wave form as you can see one of the channels is smaller

I stupidly only bought one phase inverter on my order from thoman, do you think using another one will increase the volume in the other channel?
any help welcome thanks guys

Which channel is the one that's quieter, the one that's coming in reversed or the one that's coming in straight?

You only need to phase-reverse one channel. If you phase-reversed both, you would be back where you started (at least audibly).

Either the cassette deck used for the recording or your replay deck deck is not correctly calibrated. I would simply bring the level up on your weaker channel during post-processing.

Grab some headphones, and bring up the level of the lower one until the sound is exactly in the middle of your forehead. Listen for the bass, that's often in the dead centre, and the kick, and the lead vocals are almost always going to be dead centre.

westy wrote: sorry to bring this thread up but I am just in the process of ripping that particular out of phase cassette. I am using balanced outputs into balanced inputs of My ADC with only one cable phase reversed, when summed to mono its a huge difference but it still seems to lack volume on one channel
here's a photo of the wave form as you can see one of the channels is smaller

I stupidly only bought one phase inverter on my order from thoman, do you think using another one will increase the volume in the other channel?
any help welcome thanks guys

To the bold question....No. Another inverter will put them both back into out of phase, just reversed from the original. And then you'll be right back where you started, only poorer and with more stuff gunking things up in the path.

If you remove the device with the inverter, and record that song again without having ever touched any level controls on anything, are the levels equal, or are they still different? Is it the intermediate device in that one channel? Is it a level adjustment in your computer input? Is the tape itself recorded imbalanced? Is the TASCAM outputting one side lower than the other, for some reason? We don't know.

Personally, I would have just done an easy flip in a software program, saved some money, and called it done, if it worked. Any time you add a device into the signal chain, there is a chance of detrimental results. There's also a chance for mischief with messing with a digitally-recorded signal, but I would have tried first.

Is it possible to try the BIAS and level procedures mentioned in the manual, to make sure the tape is playing back properly? Is there extra tape without signal on any of those tapes that you could use? Are all the tapes the same brand and type?

BTW, if you will be doing any software noise reduction (or any other processing, however minor), and all the songs on a particular tape sound like they were "finished" about the same, you may want to just get everything set properly, record the entire side(s) of each tape, and apply any processing to the whole thing at once. You may want the tape hiss between tunes to sample to tell a program what noise to remove, depending on what program you will use for noise removal, if any. Then you can separate and trim the songs. IF the songs sound pretty much finished and uniform, this will save time and make it more likely that all the tunes have been processed alike, which may help keep everything more the same.

You may have to process each different tape separately, though.

Just some stuff to chew on :wink:

Hope some of it is helpful.

Kapt.Krunch