Loudness wars debate... again. :d:

Long story short: - Record company executives want to appeal to the masses. And the ME's *do* know which side their bread is buttered on.

Originally posted by falkon2:
Loudness wars debate... again. :d:

Long story short: - Record company executives want to appeal to the masses. And the ME's *do* know which side their bread is buttered on.

Sorry but for these results I don't have to send my produktion to a mastering studio.
I mean, I buy expensive Mics, I try to record the stuff with the best sound I can, I spend days and nights to make a good mix and after I destroy everything.
I know that the Record Companies like that but what's up with the mastering engineers?
I make this Job because I love it and if a Company tells me make the shit as loud as possible without to care how it sounds, then I say **** you.
You know what I mean?

I agree with Vagelis!

But i think it's in the nature of record companies to think like that.

Even the most used mastering enginner here in Denmark make comments like "I could make this louder, but the level has to fit your other songs"

I belive this is a result of bad monitoring.
And bad monitoring is the result of where the musik buisness is today after the sonic mistakes of the 70th, 80th, 90th and still exist in some mastering facilities today as you have experienced Vagelis :(

Best Regards

Originally posted by Henrik Ammitsboel:
I agree with Vagelis!

But i think it's in the nature of record companies to think like that.

Even the most used mastering enginner here in Denmark make comments like "I could make this louder, but the level has to fit your other songs"

I belive this is a result of bad monitoring.
And bad monitoring is the result of where the musik buisness is today after the sonic mistakes of the 70th, 80th, 90th and still exist in some mastering facilities today as you have experienced Vagelis :(

Best Regards

I hear you Henrik.

I don't think that it's got to do with bad monitoring. In the most Mastering Studios they got good Monitors and the good Rooms. If you know how your Monitors sounds it's shouldn't be a problem.
If an engineer, recording/mastering is not able to hear that his Produktion is distorting then.......I really don't know what to say. I still cannot understand why Mastering=Loud? There are 1000 other things to change and to make better.
And don't forget I'm talking of "high End" produktions. Check the Chilli Peppers album "Californication" song "other side".

I don't think that it's got to do with bad monitoring. In the most Mastering Studios they got good Monitors and the good Rooms. If you know how your Monitors sounds it's shouldn't be a problem.

I agree that they must have bad really bad ears to do so, but i don't agree with the "In the most Mastering Studios they got good Monitors".
Simply because that's not the case :)

Check the Chilli Peppers album "Californication" song "other side".

Yes I have the album, it's a sonic mistake :)

But there is also albums that's not distorting but have a litle too much compression(but still the comp-attack), or sound as mono and thin like the newest Michael Jackson album.

That is a case of bad monitoring and incorrect amps.

Regards :) [/QB]

You are right for sure.
I just wonder why they don't hear that? When I can hear such kind of things with my "small" Genelecs?
I really start to believe that, masterin in a wellknown studio is a kind of image. I don't have another explanation about that.
Cheers-vagelis

Henrik,
I do not believe that it has anything to do with bad monitoring & amps. Along with Vagelis, I think it Is a result of conscious decisions on the part of the M.E. in combination with the Artist (who is deathly afraid of being any less loud than the loudest product out there) and the record company (who are also caught up in the loudness wars).

All thse projects, and the ones you mention are big ones, have been auditioned, both by the artist & the record company many times & revised as necessary to their taste. These are not slip-ups. Perhaps they are creative decisions taken by the band in order to get a certain effect.

I don't think there is a mastering engineer who would turn down a job because the client wants the program to be very loud. If the RHCP's walked into your studio & said:"please master our recording, but you must make it loud as all heck", would you turn down the job? I do not think this makes you a bad person. You can reccommend & demonstrate, but in the end they pay the bills. Let's not be falsely innocent here. Again.

Has anyone on the forum ever tried to contact the Red Hot Chili Peppers or any of the usual suspects to find out what they were thinking first-hand? I do not have the "in", but perhaps someone does....

I agree with Don, many people think it will sound louder on radio or sell better. But...there ius still an analog part in most systems, nomally designed with a unity gain-type and a +headroom for peaks. If you feed it with a avarage programlevel wich is 8-10 dB higher than it was designed for...it will run quite hot....
Also...the people at TC-Electronics has a couple of white papers called +0dBfs, how overload builds up in the digital domain causing servere peaks and distortion during playback on consumer CD-players.

Olle

Originally posted by Don Grossinger:

I don't think there is a mastering engineer who would turn down a job because the client wants the program to be very loud. If the RHCP's walked into your studio & said:"please master our recording, but you must make it loud as all heck", would you turn down the job? I do not think this makes you a bad person. You can reccommend & demonstrate, but in the end they pay the bills. Let's not be falsely innocent here. Again.

Has anyone on the forum ever tried to contact the Red Hot Chili Peppers or any of the usual suspects to find out what they were thinking first-hand? I do not have the "in", but perhaps someone does....

Hi Don,
Well don't get me wrong. I didn't mean that the Mastering engineers are Idiots. No!
You know I don't work with millionseller acts or something. That's why if a Band would ask me to make the songs as loud as possible, without to care of any distortions etc, I would say: Guys, there is the door, don't waste my time.
For me every Produktion is my promotion. The people who realize the mistakes or my future clients, don't care why and how. They listen and the say: Don't go there.
That's just my way of thinking.
I built up for the future and not only for today.
Greets - Vagelis ;)

Originally posted by siolle:
I agree with Don, many people think it will sound louder on radio or sell better. But...there ius still an analog part in most systems, nomally designed with a unity gain-type and a +headroom for peaks. If you feed it with a avarage programlevel wich is 8-10 dB higher than it was designed for...it will run quite hot....
Also...the people at TC-Electronics has a couple of white papers called +0dBfs, how overload builds up in the digital domain causing servere peaks and distortion during playback on consumer CD-players.

Olle

I hear you!

I had 2 guys from TC here. The reason was that......Finalizer distorts! In the beginning they didn't even hear that. Until they said ok we take your box to Denmark and we check it out. I got tha box 1 month later and the answer was: You may be have phase problems on the guitar tracks and that's why you got this distortion problems.
Aha!...Hm......Aehm....What?? :d:
Such an answer from TC? Thanx alot! :s:

Well I can agree that I wouldn´t accept that as a serious answer... on the other hand I think it´s in the same category as saying that the problem is bad monitors in mastering.
So wther you like TC or not...the topic is interesting.
http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=2015
...as the say...worth reading...

Olle

You're a cool guy Vagelis! :D
That was also the answer i got from a well known mastering engineer here in Denmark when i noticed small transistor errore(grain) in the compression. he he :D

Well you're all right the engineers can probably hear something.
But I think if they had a better system they would realize that it was pure shit they was doing!
With better systems you realize that some degrading options like severe compression just isn't posible unless you master it only visual in your DAW without your amp/speakers turned on.

Don, If one asked me to make it louder than anything I would invite the person or company to a session and teach the person(s) about music and audio.

Regards

I think that soon there wil be a revolution in the recording/mastering buisness.

It has been known to real music lovers for years that the way the music buisness was going was the wrong way.
Music albums have been degrading in sound quality ever since the transistor started to "distort" the marked.

Some people(very few for now) in the buisness has started looking back to were it went wrong and then start from there to follow the right path.

I think this will follow on to rest of the buisness and some of the firms that have a name today in audio-gear will probably have to gear down or perhabs shut down their buisness when peoble realize the difference.

-Henrik Ammitsboel

Originally posted by Henrik Ammitsboel:

Well you're all right the engineers can probably hear something.
But I think if they had a better system they would realize that it was pure shit they was doing!

Hey Henrik thanks! You're cool too! :D
Ok a very expensive ear training but it works! :cool:

Cheers - Vagelis

The answer is quite simple and has been posted before. The loader the volume of the music is, the farther a radio station can broadcast it. It's something like: amplitude X power = distance. So radio stations would use limiters and compressors to boost the volume on their output. The more they pushed the volume, the more it screwed up the sound. You simply can't apply one limiter setting to every song and expect it to sound good. The record companies obviously want their product to sound good on the radio or the record sales will suffer. So they instruct the mastering engineers to make it as loud as possible without totally destroying it. If the CD is loud enough it will pass through the radio stations limiters untouched. So the shit quality you here is the mastering engineers compromise between the killer mix you made and the total disaster the RS would have made of it. Unfortunately this trend is not likely to change until the radio stations all go with digital satellite transmission.

My Californication CD clips all the way, but I don't think it is the mastering .I think it is how they manufactured it, there are some faulty CDs out there.

A radiotransmitter is, by regulations, limited to allow 75kHz of swing in modulation. Now most stationes will reach thath on soft sections using mild limiting, The louder the music gets the more limiting will be needed. So a hot record will not pass your Orban five band limiter without limiting, it will typically drive the system into heavy limiting.
All digital broadcast will of course help, but still levelling will be needed as different loudness on CD´s still exist. So it might be that something else is pushing the levels up.....i might be that listening in Walkman´s has become the new reference.
Olle

Originally posted by Mundox:
My Californication CD clips all the way, but I don't think it is the mastering .I think it is how they manufactured it, there are some faulty CDs out there.

Wrong! :D

Folks,
I think it is entirely possible to get a nice, loud, competitive level on a CD without going into distortion.

If a big time CD is released with loudness derived distortion, then I must believe that a specific decision has been made for effect. Perhaps it is the style of the specific music that "requires" extreme loudness to make a point. I work on "Industrial" style dance music that is intentionally rediculously loud. It is pushed hard on purpose.

Current bluegrass, jazz & classical recordings are not pushed that hard. They can sound very good. Archival rock reissues such as "Pet Sounds", the Rolling Stones & Bob Dylan SACD dual layer CDs and many others are not pushed as hard as RCHP, and not by accident. These are at a loud, but comfortable, level.

I do not think we should lash out or wonder "what happened" to the various engineers who worked on the REALLY LOUD projects. Let's give the engineers the benefit of the doubt: I'd like to think they said at some point "this is really loud & distorts" and were told "that's the way we want it". I am beginning to think they are that loud to make an artistic point.

It sure got your attention, didn't it?

Mastering is a series of artistic decisions taken by the Artist, Engineers, Record Label & others. If any are done in error, then a release will be recalled & revised & remanufactured. It has happened to me. I must assume (a mistake, I know) that they like the CD that way.

Not all new CDs are obnoxiously loud are they?

Originally posted by Don Grossinger:

It sure got your attention, didn't it?

Hi Don!

Yes it sure got my attention but 100% not in the positive way. That's clear
It's easy to make a mistake and after to say: I wanted it like that.
I mean provocating the attention of the public with doing wrong things, is the wrong way.
It's not a wrong tone the guitarist played or the singer sang. Ok in this case I accept an answer like: I wanted to have it like that.
I got nothing agaist new ideas and new sounds....but in the other case we're talking of a sound disaster. :d:
If they really wanted like that, then.......they got to inform the people about that cause when I pay 15-17 € for a CD, I want a none-distorted CD.

Then we can forget the whole diskutions about Micing, recording, mixing etc. when at least..... it sounds shit anyway.
Just my opinion :w:

Hello Vagelis & all:

I love good audio & strive to give my clients a mastering job that reflects their wishes and vision of a project.

I am just playing devil's advocate here on Halloween. Trick or treat!!

Perhaps the assumption on your part that all audio should be a correct, undistorted, accurate representation of a musical performance is not entirely what some artists desire. Maybe we have to accept that sometimes a distorted clipped signal is what the artist wants. I wonder how many copies of Californification are out there. Do you think that the RHCP would allow the presses to continue to run if it was all wrong? I would hope they would have the power to say stop this at once.

It may not be what you want. This does not mean that it is not what they want. I wish they had released 2 versions: 1 with a clean but loud signal, 1 with a hard, overdriven sound for impact.

You know, I'm not saying that it's good. I'm not saying that it may have offended you that it does not follow the logic of their previous releases. But if enough people refuse to buy that sound, then next time it WILL change. If it succeeds in the market place then they may be forging a new (and to you unacceptable) artistic direction. Will you buy the next RHCP release??? Your opinion is valid! Buyers opinions are what drive the market. If enough people feel the same way & the NEXT CD tanks, then perhaps they will tone it down.

Just Say NO

Originally posted by Don Grossinger:
Hello Vagelis & all:

I love good audio & strive to give my clients a mastering job that reflects their wishes and vision of a project.

Hey Don!

I know very good what you mean.
I don't know if RHCP would stop the Pressing if they could.
I cannot find another situation (of life) to compare it. Music it's not a Produkt like cheese you buy and you just realize that the date is over.
Do you know what's sad but true? The people who bought the CD didn't even realize what's wrong.
Then what are we gonna do? To wake them up? The other question is if they want to.
Don't get me wrong, I don't play the Audio Papst :D .
I'm just a peanut.

If I'm gonna buy the new RHCP you ask? No! The reason? I don't pay money to People who got no respekt of their customers.
When I make a Produktion in my Studio I make many mistakes which my Clients cannot even hear. So, for me and only for me, I fix it. It doesn't matter how long it takes, it dosn't matter if my clients tell me: "Hey let it, we cannot hear any mistake. What the **** do you mean?"
Call me idealist or "stupid" but I really do it like that.
If the new trend is a clipped CD, then I say I'm oldfashioned.

Greetings :c: Vagelis

Hey Vagelis, I think the californication CD does have a manufacturing defect.Why? Because my friends have the same album that plays perfectly smooth.And the CD I got was actually a freebie from some charity event!
:D

Originally posted by Mundox:
Hey Vagelis, I think the californication CD does have a manufacturing defect.Why? Because my friends have the same album that plays perfectly smooth.And the CD I got was actually a freebie from some charity event!
:D

Hi!
I don't think so. Get the CD and listen to it carefully on your Monitors. I'm sure it's just the same.
Or import the file in your hardisk and have a look.You'll see that that it clips there where it's hot. You see it and you hear it.
If a CD is damaged sounds pretty different.

Cheers - Vagelis :c:

Vagalis,

The other possible solution:

Time to stop buying hardcore / metal & graduate (make a huge jump) to John Coltrane! Try tackling "Ascention" & tell me what you think...pretty out-there stuff.

Happy Weekend!
Don

I think Don has a very good point here.
I'm sure that the bands and labels has some(if not all) to do with the limiting/clipping or as i call it "Trash Art".

It maybe a dissision now but later it will go over in history as the sonic dissastor from the 2000'th.
We are looking at albums that has been made with dissisions rather than ears.

To improove the sound in mastering I'm looking at:
1. History/how did it start.
2. Where it got better/why it got better.
3. Where it got wrong/what got wrong.

Because i belive we have to go back in time to gain the right path and get music that sounds more real and has a dimention.
Don haven't you thought about this?

Best Regards

Henrik,

Yes, of course I've thought about that. But another thing I have learned in doing mastering for all these years is not to force my tastes & sensibilities on my clients. I am here to make their vision a reality, not to decide what the final sound should be. Even if I do not agree with the sonic direction a project is heading in.

In other words, if they want distortion, I make the nicest sounding distortion I can.

I can suggest & recommend, but not force the client to change their ideas by refusing to go with the flow.

Pop culture is a funny thing. It keeps changing. Elvis Presley sounded like pure noise to those who listened to "big band" music in 1956. The Beatles sounded like pure noise to some in 1963. Charlie Parker & John Coltrane sounded horrible to "pure" jazz buffs in 1948 & 1961. Later all these artists were considered to be geniuses. That is not to say that RHCP will ever be considered the next Beatles or Coltrane, but the sound they make these days is theirs to choose. They have lots of control over the final sound.

We move on or are considered to be dinosaurs.

Hi Don

I surdently do not force my clients to change ideas, but I will tell them about the consequences of their choices.
But in the end they have to decide not me!

Don I think you have misunderstod my statement.
this is not about someones opinion, or my taste as you wrote.
This is about seing what we can do with audio!

I would like write it all down for you but I'm at work and it's a long story...
You will get it later ;)

Best Regards

Henrik,

I do understand what you are getting at: You would prefer if the good quality audio that might have been present in the '50s through the '80s (before the level wars began) would return.

That way, all of us who really care about sound quality in recording & mastering would be valued and our caring contributions would be important.

What I mean is that it seems to me that the audio market has changed. The buying public (mostly the kids) seem to be OK with MP3s & tons of level as the accepted way of reproducing audio. SACD & DVD Audio, it seems to me, are going to be fringe products despite all the quality advantages they are capable of providing.

I think we have lost the battle. With many productions being recorded & mastered in private, home studios, the services of someone who is careful about mic choices & placement seems to be going away. The person who knows how to artfully choose a compressor & set it is being replaced by someone who just overuses it for effect.plug-inshave put all kinds of power in the hands of well- meaning people who are just not trained & have no basis for comparison. It's a new toy &people are pushing limits. Recording and Mastering studios are just "too expensive".

Perhaps this is just gloomy. I hope so. I'm just not sure how to fight the tide. Members of RO give me hope, but I get remixes for major label product that are just poorly mixed. The songs just are not there either with some exceptions. If songs are based mostly on rhythm with little attention to harmony & melody, they are somewhat lacking, but they DO SELL. People are going to have to care about audio quality before anything happens, and I do not see that as a major trend. Look at the Billboard charts.

I'm not sure if it is possible to go back, and I am not sure if the world wants to. That's OK, it's the way things work & move on. This reflects the times we live in. Each of us must do our part to bring high quality audio to today's sounds. Maybe down the road a new trend will develop that encourages really fine sound.

Please pardon my ramblings .........I'm sure I'll feel better later.

Hi Don,

Yes that was what i mented in my postings! :)
To go back in time, gain the right path and then move on to really improve audio.

And that was excactly what you wrote about now... you meaning of all this(right from the heard) :) I liked your writing very much! Thanks

What I think of all this is that it will happen it's just where and when it will happen :)

I'm a man with great hopes and belives, this is also about the right PR to make peoble see this, and it's the same with food. Here in Denmark i don't think McDonnals has a future, they are selling lesser day by day because people have learned to eat better.

This will also happen with music/audio and when it happen I think a firm like Genelec(and many others) will have to make a new way of living or simply quit buisness.

Best Regards

level wars have been around since music became a product. From vinyl, to cassette to CD. That is why compressors were invented. Don is on the money. The most requested thing I get is level. It has to be loud. Now my goal is to achieve this while retaining as much sonic integrity as i can. I even have some clients ask me to push it to the edge and then raise it 2 notches. Now I can turn it away or I can take it. it's up to me. But If I turn it away, someone else will take it. So what are we to do???? work on records that want there music to sound good.... that's one way, the other is to do the best we can and pay the bills while trying to make it better.

there is a revolution happening as we speak. And soon the music will have to speak for itself while marketing takes a back seat.

Originally posted by Michael Fossenkemper:
there is a revolution happening as we speak. And soon the music will have to speak for itself while marketing takes a back seat.

I look forward to that day with great anticipation. :cool:

Me Too!!!!!!

And I hope to still be in the business when it happens.

I'm very glad that we all agree :D
Let's have a beer and chat one day when I come to the states :c:

Best Regards :tu:

One of the problems in the future my friends - as we have to realize....... is that these kids are driving around in cars with sound systems turned up to the point that i can feel them vibrate my home when they are still a 1/2 mile away.......

So by the time they grow up and begin to appreaciate "real music" - they'll be so damned deaf that they will need the volume just to barely make out the song anyway.......

It sucks - but looks like we just might be screwed any way we look at it..... :D ) LOLOLOLOL............

Peace my friends............. :p:

Rod

Yeah and this is why some people don't understand why alot of cheap mics are just scrappy sounding. The first thing that goes in your hearing is high frequencies, so you get a generation of folks who are pushing the highs way up to compisate, all while notnoticing all the artifacting and distortion going on. When these people were younger and heard music better, they git that in their memory and try to recreat it later in life but completely go about it half-assed backwards. The future of music isn't really people anyways, it's computers. All about computers, that's all that will matter. The most popular artist will be a self contained computer and it's fans will be other computers, and their music will be completely un recognizable to us simple humans, it will just sound like a bunch of high-end hissing sped-up clicks and such - oh wait that's like IDM! nevermind....

oh I love IDM btw, as well as old timer's music...

:) :) :) :)