Do the right thing and ask permission and pay the royalties first. You can get what you are looking for that way, generally speaking. Some of us get really pissy when we hear something that's ours.

I am not going to steel the stuff just use it for personal use and try to make similar sounds.

get your own ideas, including sounds.
stealing sucks, i hate ordinary sampling for that!

axel wrote: get your own ideas, including sounds.
stealing sucks, i hate ordinary sampling for that!

that's a bad atittude dude... first of all, born and raised on hip-hop all i knew was sampling... you either sampled a drum loop, a guitar riff, bass line, or whatever... sampling is an art within itself...

ALSO, arranging a variety of samples is considered REMIXING...

either way mjatas, most producers (yes, even the ones who put records and cds out) sample from other peoples work... it's an easy explanantion for trends in the sound of a genre ie distorted kick drums, tight loop points, high hat loops, etc...

my advice is to try digging through all of your favorite music and capture your favorite moments ie cool break down, banging drum loop, a single snare hit, a vocal snippet, whatever... just get the sounds...

NOW, what should you use to get the sounds? try out Sound Forge:
http://sweetwater.com/store/detail/SoundForge/ ask for Art Hill

It's a great app, fairly cheap and will take care of everything you need to create your sample library from scratch...

Some may suggest Recycle, but this is really good once you have all your sounds first...

Don't be affraid to experiment... i write dance music but my collection of samples run through funk, 80s, house, 60s rock, whatever... as long as i like it... i SAMPLE IT...

as for you trying to extract the sample from its original audio, EQ - but that still doesn't help that much... when you wish to do something like this, the best way is to SAMPLE IT and put it in your program and play a virtual instrument along with it to recreate it...

hope this helps :) get sampling kid 8)

OH, one last thing... write whatver you like using anyone's work that you wish... inspiraition and creativity should not be held back by formalities that will later be settled (sample clearance) by the labels licensing your potential hit song... just don't press it or mass copy it for sale

fontane wrote: just don't press it or mass copy it for sale

By law, you still can't distribute any copies (free or not) until you receive clearance from the rights administrator. Period.

BrianAltenhofel wrote: [quote=fontane]just don't press it or mass copy it for sale

By law, you still can't distribute any copies (free or not) until you receive clearance from the rights administrator. Period.

Period? that's quite defintive.

what law is this brian? i work with several career producers and if they wish to create a song which may include a sample, they go ahead and do it. Once the song is finished, they bring it to a label or shop it to a label. If the label decides to buy or license the recording, the label then proceeds with clearing the rights through the appropriate channels. at this point, the recording is now ready for pressing and distribution.

i am not so familiar with the industry that you work within, but coming from a hip-hop background and growing up within the nightclubs of nyc and participating within the the dance music business, i am unaware of any such laws that prohibit an artist/song writer etc from creating new works to showcase their talent to secure jobs, contracts, etc...

i wouldn't know where either genre of music would be if it wasn not for dj promos, underground remixes, etc that get pushed through the night clubs. there are many white label records out there. there are DJs who may remix a song the night before they go and play it at a party for thousands of people, they by no means clear copyrights at this point.

i am not trying to sound challenging, but in all due respect, you sound as if you speak from the books and not from personal experience within such genres that i discussed.

i am familiar wih copyright laws, and i also do believe - it is fair game for talent to create works for their portfolio or demos that may contain works of others - be it a photograph for a backfrop of a "mock" ad to secure a gig as a designer at an agency or be it an upcoming remix artist who may have borrowed accapellas for a demo to showcase his arrangement and production skills to secure a release or contract.

i also believe that there are civil and criminal differences in regards to use of copyrighted material ie the use of copyrighted material for personal financial gain (criminal) vs the use to showcase one's talents to a label (civil).

at the end of the day, i think the point here is that if you decide to include pieces of coprighted material within your own works, and then wish to use these works to generate financial gain for ones self... you should be aware of licensing and how it works within your industry.

also, in my personal opinion, i don't think it's causing any financial loss to the owner of a copyright from which you are using portions of within your works to secure a job or to play as a remix within a club.

If you take a sample beat, hi-hat or other sound it's okay, however if you take a specific melody or sound that a particular artists made himself and added it to his/her song and you take that composition then it is stealing. Only if you get that artists permission and pay to use it. That artist might get a percentage of rights from the song.

fontane wrote: [quote=axel]get your own ideas, including sounds.
stealing sucks, i hate ordinary sampling for that!

that's a bad atittude dude... first of all, born and raised on hip-hop all i knew was sampling... you either sampled a drum loop, a guitar riff, bass line, or whatever... sampling is an art within itself...

ALSO, arranging a variety of samples is considered REMIXING...

either way mjatas, most producers (yes, even the ones who put records and cds out) sample from other peoples work... it's an easy explanantion for trends in the sound of a genre ie distorted kick drums, tight loop points, high hat loops, etc...

my advice is to try digging through all of your favorite music and capture your favorite moments ie cool break down, banging drum loop, a single snare hit, a vocal snippet, whatever... just get the sounds...

NOW, what should you use to get the sounds? try out Sound Forge:
http://sweetwater.com/store/detail/SoundForge/ ask for Art Hill

It's a great app, fairly cheap and will take care of everything you need to create your sample library from scratch...

Some may suggest Recycle, but this is really good once you have all your sounds first...

Don't be affraid to experiment... i write dance music but my collection of samples run through funk, 80s, house, 60s rock, whatever... as long as i like it... i SAMPLE IT...

as for you trying to extract the sample from its original audio, EQ - but that still doesn't help that much... when you wish to do something like this, the best way is to SAMPLE IT and put it in your program and play a virtual instrument along with it to recreate it...

hope this helps :) get sampling kid 8)

OH, one last thing... write whatver you like using anyone's work that you wish... inspiraition and creativity should not be held back by formalities that will later be settled (sample clearance) by the labels licensing your potential hit song... just don't press it or mass copy it for sale

yes, man but how to take a sample out from a song and use it? I need sampling software. I do have soundforge I think version 7 or 8, but does it take a certain instrument or part out of a song? And if so how to do it exactly? I am not familiar too much with soundforge.

that's a bad atittude dude... first of all, born and raised on hip-hop all i knew was sampling... you either sampled a drum loop, a guitar riff, bass line, or whatever... sampling is an art within itself...

yes it is an artform in itself... i have never said it is not! dudes READ propperly before you complain!!!

axel wrote:

get your own ideas, including sounds.
stealing sucks, i hate ordinary sampling for that!

ORDINARY Sampling! right!!!

if you use just the pure sounds, within sampling, then i agree, using whole loops, sorry i don't agree... sampling is fine IMO when you actually create,and not just puzzle other musicians creativity together... (my neck hairs stay up when i hear the word fruity loops or junglelator or reason!!! and yeas there are people who making whole albums withit!)

mind you millions of people eating mc D everyday!!! that doesn't make it any good!!!

i like Hip Hop, but for example not that kind of taking a 70's funk loop and putting a street beat underneath... sorry it doesn't work for me!

sampling single notes of an instrument (or using them from a sample CD, and actually writing a piece of music e.g. beat, bassline or melody, YOURSELF fine...

but that's only my 2two cents!!!

ordinary Sampling SUCKS! even there are platinum albums sold with stealing...

or people like DJ Shadow, sorry guys NOT my cup of tea!!!

so i have bad attitude LOL

p.s. i am totally into electronic music, all forms and own even a hardware yamaha sampler and a MPC.

I agree with you, however if you do use a sample or loop and you get consent from the artist or whoever made that sample/loop and you make millions off that song, why the hell not use it?

to make millions, it's just not my cup of tea, i am in the game because i love music, and really don't care if it sells or not, of cause i am happy if it sells, but it's not the driving force why i write and produce music...

I don't make music to make millions either, but if some miracle does happen and I do make millions, then why not?

yeah, hey why not!
i don't see a reason on that either, the more people like my stuff the better...
i personally love the fact that some people really getting big by doing it out of pure love and creativity... nothing wrong with that.

i just don't like "manufactured mass music" which is born and created out of a how to sell / PR mind and not out of an artist / musician mind, and than became ridiculous successfull, for shure in my humble opinion nothing wrong with the second case, but with the first one, as already mentioned!

well, at least we all seem to agree on one thing... write music cause you love it... but hey, just because i like to play the opposite side of the fence sometimes, even those who are "selling out" love music, they just write music for people not for musicians...

just think, even those who "sell out" and write "hits" must have talent or love because it is still years of dedication and hard work not to mention talent and skill...

as for reason, fruity loops, etc... i agreed with you for the longest time but once i realized the point of making music is to express yourself, then by all means - whatever you use and however you use it as long as it works for you... is all good...

i personally use DP, K2, MX4, etc and like to get granular with my work, but this could also be because im a techy geeky guy whereas the kid in his bedroom or the producer in his studio is more concerned about the feel and groove and not so worried about the tick or the opportunity to adjust a frequency by 3hz...

i dunno, i think all music is a blessing and anyone who shares and or participates in this community or industry is amazing for what they do... be it loop based work or compositon work from the ground up... it really doesn't matter does it? our ears can't tell the difference... only musicians with education on the process complain about such... you never hear someone grooving on the dance floor saying... hey! they stole that vocal and then used that guys drum beats and what a lame decision to use that bass line... if that's what you think while the beats are rocking, something is wrong... just feel it...

it's like the digital dj vs the turntable dj or analog vs digital or whatever... the point is tools evolve to make our life easier and more productive and different genres of music will forever be the off spring of such technologies... and so be it...

don't hate, just create :)

mjatas wrote: [quote=fontane][quote=axel]get your own ideas, including sounds.
stealing sucks, i hate ordinary sampling for that!

that's a bad atittude dude... first of all, born and raised on hip-hop all i knew was sampling... you either sampled a drum loop, a guitar riff, bass line, or whatever... sampling is an art within itself...

ALSO, arranging a variety of samples is considered REMIXING...

either way mjatas, most producers (yes, even the ones who put records and cds out) sample from other peoples work... it's an easy explanantion for trends in the sound of a genre ie distorted kick drums, tight loop points, high hat loops, etc...

my advice is to try digging through all of your favorite music and capture your favorite moments ie cool break down, banging drum loop, a single snare hit, a vocal snippet, whatever... just get the sounds...

NOW, what should you use to get the sounds? try out Sound Forge:
http://sweetwater.com/store/detail/SoundForge/ ask for Art Hill

It's a great app, fairly cheap and will take care of everything you need to create your sample library from scratch...

Some may suggest Recycle, but this is really good once you have all your sounds first...

Don't be affraid to experiment... i write dance music but my collection of samples run through funk, 80s, house, 60s rock, whatever... as long as i like it... i SAMPLE IT...

as for you trying to extract the sample from its original audio, EQ - but that still doesn't help that much... when you wish to do something like this, the best way is to SAMPLE IT and put it in your program and play a virtual instrument along with it to recreate it...

hope this helps :) get sampling kid 8)

OH, one last thing... write whatver you like using anyone's work that you wish... inspiraition and creativity should not be held back by formalities that will later be settled (sample clearance) by the labels licensing your potential hit song... just don't press it or mass copy it for sale

yes, man but how to take a sample out from a song and use it? I need sampling software. I do have soundforge I think version 7 or 8, but does it take a certain instrument or part out of a song? And if so how to do it exactly? I am not familiar too much with soundforge.

there is no true extraction method... you need to either:
a) buy the sheet music and play it yourself into a sequencer that you can later edit

or

b) transcribe it yourself then play it into the sequencer to be edited later

this is where basic music theory comes in handy :) i would suggest getting a basic theory book, your favorite cd and sit in front of your keyboard and play along until it "sounds right"... then note what it is or record it and later look at the staff to see your composition...

hi fontane,
i agree pretty much with the post you send before the last one, yes it is all about the creation, but i can't help myself that certain "easy" tools lead to so much crap, lots of all in one solutions just bring the crap out, if you are a musician and you use reason that's fine, but even as an absolut non musical person you can get some stuff out of progs like that just try and error long enough with the matrix sequencer presets, and here we go it sounds like hundred other tracks made in R, i just have a very strong quality aproach, and if i can i will try to encourage everyone to stick to the highest quality possible, even if as you pointed out "no one will hear it" mp3s are shite and millions of people can't tell the difference, i do, so that's why i DON'T use them, i even encourage clients to get their hands of that shite... if i can make a difference i will! and i will even fight for it!, because if no one does, we will end up with 2bit 1 khz hyper compressed all preset shit, only because t is convinient and doesn't take hd space or for whatever redicilous reason, yeas i have to agree that the DAW revolution brought over the years enormous quality, just remember the first audio softwares or plugs, horroble, but in our days wow... some stuff is as great as hardware...
hope that some of the "all in ones" will be as well at some point.
most people are like sheeps they "eat" what you give to them, give 'em shite they will eat shite, give 'em truffle they will eat truffle and maybee even learn how to appreciate truffle...

In real terms Brian is right. In fact he doesn't go far enough. If you look at the legalese on any commercially released media you cannot do anything to your CD/DVD except listen to/watch it.

However, there is legal precidence for copying your own CD's for backup - Ahem! have you ever done that??? Also provision for recording TV programmes, although you must destroy these within 30 days by law.

Nevertheless, sampling exists and goes on without too much trouble. There have been several cases where publishers/artists have refused clearance for a sample. It's quite easy to get around this however by re-recording it. As long as it doesn't blatantly 'cover' a track then they have no comeback. Even though it can sound identical, there have been cases where the original artist has lost a legal battle because the sampler convinced the judge that the original song was in fact similar to a previous recording and it was the previous song which was the influence - not theirs!

BTW sampling a loop or a hit, even a kick drum is illegal (although bloody hard to prove :wink: ) . It doesn't matter how long it is, you'll still be infringing copyright.

Sampling is theft - but so is nicking a pencil from work! Many a musical genre would be non-existent if it weren't for this box of tricks (So would all your virtual instuments too!). And no...most cheesy pop would still be god awful even if it weren't for samplers!

Sorry I wen't off on a rant before answering your question.

To answer your question. It is extremely difficult to remove elements of a track.

Bizzarrely the easiest thing to remove is generally the vocals due to the fact that they generally sit in the centre of the mix and other elements are panned either left or right in varying degrees. You can use phase reversal to accomplish this - although it is no way near perfect. Since the melodies in a typical trance track generally involve lots of stereo effects, this solution beomes near to impossible as the L/R signals need to be identical to work..

axel wrote: if i can make a difference i will! and i will even fight for it!, because if no one does, we will end up with 2bit 1 khz hyper compressed all preset shit, only because t is convinient and doesn't take hd space or for whatever redicilous reason

hee hee... that's one of the best things i have heard in a few weeks :lol:

o2x wrote: BTW sampling a loop or a hit, even a kick drum is illegal (although bloody hard to prove :wink: ) . It doesn't matter how long it is, you'll still be infringing copyright.

From what I learned in school during our music business law lecture i was told that you could not copyright a sound i.e. a hit i.e. a kick drum. I even debated with the attorney about signature sounds such as a Phil Collin's drum, or what if i layered a specific clap with a dog barking for MY snare drum. His answer was still : you cannot copyright sounds, only musical composition.

Maybe the laws in the US are different?

i have an additional question that really bothers me...
appart from all the legal issues that come with the culture of sampling tracks and sounds, does it not somehow touches your proud, when you hear obvious cheap rip off stuff?

what i mean is that, i believe all of us or at least most of the people on this forum are interested in gaining, apart from our musical views and talents / skills to learn and improve the possibility of great productions, and maybee i do missunderstand something here, but is a good production, or at least a big chunk of it not about being able to develope great and uniqe sounds and sounding tunes?

i just get somehow goose pimpels (in a negative way) when i hear obvious sampled stuff, i mean just pure loops not even bothered to change them in whatever creative way...

also just a general statement / opinion, i see this forum as something to push newbies into that direction, i mean the abbility to create uniqe music and productions, so why not encouraging people to look at the highest point possible, this is a pro forum, right? so why do people look into the simple stuff which, yes it does, has it's own right, but i feel it's deplaced here...

instead of pushing things further i feel it's a step backwards to say do it the easy way...

but than again it's just my 2cents.

sorry if i was not able to express evrything i want "spot on" english is not my mothertounge...

any thoughts are welcome...

fontane wrote: [quote=o2x]BTW sampling a loop or a hit, even a kick drum is illegal (although bloody hard to prove :wink: ) . It doesn't matter how long it is, you'll still be infringing copyright.

From what I learned in school during our music business law lecture i was told that you could not copyright a sound i.e. a hit i.e. a kick drum. I even debated with the attorney about signature sounds such as a Phil Collin's drum, or what if i layered a specific clap with a dog barking for MY snare drum. His answer was still : you cannot copyright sounds, only musical composition.

Maybe the laws in the US are different?

Ah yes, but here is where we enter a big grey area. There are two copyright issues to deal with. The intellectual copyright, i.e. the composition, and the mechanical copyright, the recording. By defenition by sampling any sound off a copyrighted recording, you break mechanical copyright. It is not an issue of the sound being copyrighted, but the recording itself.

If you were to sample Phil Collins' drums directly (as in not off any recorded matter) you are not infringing any copyright as he cannot copyright the physical sound a drum makes.

However, i'd much rather sample Phil Collins being beaten to a bloody pulp than any of his drum sounds! :P

in regards to phil: very true... but don't sleep on some old material :) he has some thick sounds and interesting hits to work with... but then again, it would only shine in electro/house or something of a similar genre

axel wrote: i have an additional question that really bothers me...
appart from all the legal issues that come with the culture of sampling tracks and sounds, does it not somehow touches your proud, when you hear obvious cheap rip off stuff?

what i mean is that, i believe all of us or at least most of the people on this forum are interested in gaining, apart from our musical views and talents / skills to learn and improve the possibility of great productions, and maybee i do missunderstand something here, but is a good production, or at least a big chunk of it not about being able to develope great and uniqe sounds and sounding tunes?

i just get somehow goose pimpels (in a negative way) when i hear obvious sampled stuff, i mean just pure loops not even bothered to change them in whatever creative way...

also just a general statement / opinion, i see this forum as something to push newbies into that direction, i mean the abbility to create uniqe music and productions, so why not encouraging people to look at the highest point possible, this is a pro forum, right? so why do people look into the simple stuff which, yes it does, has it's own right, but i feel it's deplaced here...

instead of pushing things further i feel it's a step backwards to say do it the easy way...

but than again it's just my 2cents.

sorry if i was not able to express evrything i want "spot on" english is not my mothertounge...

any thoughts are welcome...

my personal prefence... i agree... patchwork loop beats that are lacking creative anything is not my interest...

i grew up listening to serious musicians such as aphex twin, richie hawtin, jim morrison, and a slew of others which in returned fueled my tastes, but i also appreciated simpler works such as pop due to the complexity involved in other aspects of the creation and production.

i used to be a big, "oh that sucks" guy when i was younger because i would always compare songs to other songs... now, i just listen and feel for the essence of what inspires the song to be a song on it's own merits...

coincidental search

mjatas,

You are not asking a question that will sick the McCarthy-era witch- hunters after you! lol!
BTW Why can't anyone reach you? Your email has rejected me. I am waiting for the second attempt. There is no way 2 contact U or your webmaster at your homepage.
My email is creamtowney AT yahoo DOT com. It's free and always on. Email me with a free hotmail or yahoo addy. Did I say it was free?
I raised the same question (of this/your thread) to Google in 15 different flowery phrases and slapped in "sampling tracks cheap" and got your 'plea' second in line.
I am seeking this technology because I am simultaneously learning music theory and transcribing from class to class with the teacher. Concurrently I have bandleader ideas and am looking for THE most effective ways of transmitting to a band how a riff (et al) should be covered.
Why not isolate the puppy and play it synched alongside the multi-tracked original to confirm that it is indeed the right time signature of the artist and it's not the technologies fault. :shock:
Music is transient. But anyway, untill I learn how to articulate not only my own original ideas but the covers our band will flex with this, locating this software will be a huge time-saver. IF I find it.
And it is perfectly "legal" for these educational purposes.
Gotta love "fontanes" time spent on this. (He's probably a little more-content than mal-content in his field than others.)
This copyright crap will shake out with Syrius, Steve Jobs, XM Radio et al. anyway. Read the permissions you can obtain at the office of copyrights U.S. and check out creative commons.org for perspective.
I don't want to make millions. Successfully extracting the empirical attitude and workaholism I've inherited as an upper middle-class caucasian will suffice in my life. Add a little retirement package and I'm golden. All I need is a terminal illness to wipe out my millions. Why?
Please get ahold of me. I think it will be valuable.

Sincerely,

creamtowney

-------------
longstanding favorite: http://www.lucindawilliams.com/
others: http://www.gusgus.com/

contest

Fontane,
I contest your statement:

"there is no true extraction method... "

What is karaoke technology??

Even if it is just one big edit of the vocal track, they have succesfully
(1) identified a track from some stage of the final mix (the vocal track (or family of tracks typically devoted to the vocals))
(2) isolated it enough to lower the volume to nil.

Co-incidingly, the 20-year-old technology for high-end samplers is 'out there' for the rest of the tracks.

The fulcrum of that technology (in 2005) is probably a small package- I am gambling no larger than 50-250 MB.

This is all to avoid paying $4000.00 for an Akai or some such sampler.

I will return once I have scoured the internet, along w/ my buddy, Reva Basch.

sincerely,

creamtowney

Okay so what is a good program to separate tracks and sample with? Just asking no drama please. LOL

Thanks for the guidance!!

nothing solid yet

I've got email notification of posts here. Hope yall do too.
I have hit on some good stuff lately and am narrowing it down. (the 'ATAINF' program and Dig. Aud. Ext. (DAE) technology should say alot (if not everything.))
I will put out a junk email to share my findings to discretionary inquiries as this, I imagine, is not the sort of thing a website owner would like to host. :shock: However using this tech in a non-distributive, educational venue is copacetic (ok). And cheaper than a $4000.00 sampler. :wink:

-creamtowney

P.S. Email addy provided when I've 'succeeded.'
P.S.S. The 'drama' in here is extremely educational my man. Read quick and sift through the lines. Business is business but the experienced ones have their own colors. Learn to recognize those colors. I am just a newbie to most of the quality of content in this forum.

Re: nothing solid yet

creamtowney wrote:
What is karaoke technology??

Ok...Originally, yes. Karaoke made use of music tracks where the vocal was removed as best as it could be. But the vocal was never completely gone and the music lost lots of it's sound because of the process.

But these days most karaoke music..and by most I mean practically all of it is completely recomposed music sans the vocal. They aren't taking the original tracks and removing the vocals. They are re-recording the tracks without the vocals.

creamtowney wrote:
I have hit on some good stuff lately and am narrowing it down. (the 'ATAINF' program and Dig. Aud. Ext. (DAE) technology should say alot (if not everything.))

?

Actually it doesn't say alot...it says nothing. From what I could find ATAINF is a just a drive analyzation utility used for getting properties of different types of computer drives. It has absolutely nothing to do with audio.

DAE? All that is is a way to extract the digial audio data from a CD....something millions of people do every day on their home computers. You can't digitally extract a melody or instrument from a mix.

The type of thing that mjatas is asking about is much more complex.

If you want to isolate a specific part of an audio track, you have to use a combination of EQs, Filters and Phase tricks. And even then the end result will most likely not be satisfactory.

Here is a very simple example. Let's say there is a song where you want to extract the Kick drum from. You first have to find the part of the song that has the exact kick drum sound you want. Now there will probably be other instruments playing over top of it. Most kick drums occupy the lower frequency range, so the easiest thing to do to try and get rid of all those instruments is to run the track through a filter so only the Lower frequencies come through.
But what if there is a bass guitar there. Your not going to be able to separate it from the kick drum.

And what about the high frequencies of the kick drum...you've cut all of them out while trying to cut out all the other stuff. So in the you may end up with the kick drum fairly isolated but it's not going to sound anything like it did in the track.

Using a melody part would be 10 times harder because so many instruments occupy the mid/upper frequencies it would be very hard to isolate a single sound or instrument.

STORMSHADOW04 wrote: Okay so what is a good program to separate tracks and sample with? Just asking no drama please. LOL

Thanks for the guidance!!

There are tons of good programs to sample with.

But as for extracting/separating tracks from an audio file....There is none.

Maybe someone in Area 51 has some alien technology that can do it but for us non-security-clearanced people it doesn't exist.
Contrary to what people see in movies and on CSI, it is very hard to extract a specific instrument out of an audio file.

It's like this. Take a yellow highlighter pen and draw line. Now take a blue highlighter pen and draw a line that intersects with the yellow line.

The yellow line is yellow. The blue line is blue. The intersection is neither. It is now green. You can't separate the blue from the yellow. This is how it is with music. The different sounds/tracks get all mixed together and cannot be separated.

pr0gr4m wrote: [quote=creamtowney]
What is karaoke technology??

Ok...Originally, yes. Karaoke made use of music tracks where the vocal was removed as best as it could be. But the vocal was never completely gone and the music lost lots of it's sound because of the process.

But these days most karaoke music..and by most I mean practically all of it is completely recomposed music sans the vocal. They aren't taking the original tracks and removing the vocals. They are re-recording the tracks without the vocals.

creamtowney wrote:
I have hit on some good stuff lately and am narrowing it down. (the 'ATAINF' program and Dig. Aud. Ext. (DAE) technology should say alot (if not everything.))

?

Actually it doesn't say alot...it says nothing. From what I could find ATAINF is a just a drive analyzation utility used for getting properties of different types of computer drives. It has absolutely nothing to do with audio.

DAE? All that is is a way to extract the digial audio data from a CD....something millions of people do every day on their home computers. You can't digitally extract a melody or instrument from a mix.

The type of thing that mjatas is asking about is much more complex.

If you want to isolate a specific part of an audio track, you have to use a combination of EQs, Filters and Phase tricks. And even then the end result will most likely not be satisfactory.

Here is a very simple example. Let's say there is a song where you want to extract the Kick drum from. You first have to find the part of the song that has the exact kick drum sound you want. Now there will probably be other instruments playing over top of it. Most kick drums occupy the lower frequency range, so the easiest thing to do to try and get rid of all those instruments is to run the track through a filter so only the Lower frequencies come through.
But what if there is a bass guitar not there. Your not going to be able to separate it from the kick drum.

And what about the high frequencies of the kick drum...you've cut all of them out while trying to cut out all the other stuff. So in the you may end up with the kick drum fairly isolated but it's not going to sound anything like it did in the track.

Using a melody part would be 10 times harder because so many instruments occupy the mid/upper frequencies it would be very hard to isolate a single sound or instrument.Hey pr0gr4m,

I look to your time spent here in enrichment. It is delightful to hear your rationale and it is thusly thought-generating and value yielding to say little.
It is too much to digest on this day of your post and with the holiday weekend upon us.
Filters are a great subject and frequencies are definitely what we are dealing with (avg. range: 6 Khz -10khz).
The truth be known, I am a sad, sad audio phile burning up my valuable time on this earth for the
highest quality depth of electronica available. I cite Peter Gabriels penchent for quality of sound over the 80s/90's as 1 example. (and those bitchin whirling drum-heads encased in the AKAI samplers)
At this time however, I am just fractionally daunted by your release in this thread and also, more valuably, energized by your counter-points.
I appreciate your direct response sincerely and will be back with a real answer to mjatas query. (Though he seems to have abandoned it himself.)

respectfully,

'creamtowney'

This is a great thread guys... im glad to see that it is still up and running :)

i use to think and wish for the same tools when i first began writing music, but as you become "one" with your production techniques these ideas of extraction slowly fade away, not to black but, enough to allow your current creativity to explore new means of expression...

don't get me wrong, if there was such a tool - i would definitely try it out... but in the real world of music production today, this is just not a possible battle to win...

how come there isn't a sampling tool out there to take the trance melody and use it, let's says for a mix? I want to make a mix and use melody samples.

There are many types of equipmet for sampling melodies and such, no software???? I do not believe it.

:D

Greetings mjatas,

mjatas wrote: how come there isn't a sampling tool out there to take the trance melody and use it, let's says for a mix? I want to make a mix and use melody samples.

There are many types of equipmet for sampling melodies and such, no software???? I do not believe it.

Think of a record/CD as being a cake. There are many ingredients in a cake, which when mixed together in the right proportions (editing/mixing) and baked at the right temperature for the right amount of time (mastering/pressing) produce something yummy.

If you decided, for whatever reason, that you wanted, say, just the butter (or trance melody) without the rest of the cake would you try to extract it from the cake or would you just go to the store/dairy and get some fresh butter?

If you tried to extract just the butter from the cake do you think you'd be very successful?

At the end of the day, no matter how skilled you are in the kitchen, you cannot unbake the cake.

However, you can get just the synth melody or drums or whatever with audio. The way to do this is to go back to the original recordings/master and solo the relevant track(s). Of course, this means having access to the original tracks, which brings us back to contacting the owner(s) of the copyrights (composition & recording) and getting their permission (probably in exchange for a fee and/or points).

HTH

Spy wrote: :D

Greetings mjatas,

[quote=mjatas]how come there isn't a sampling tool out there to take the trance melody and use it, let's says for a mix? I want to make a mix and use melody samples.

There are many types of equipmet for sampling melodies and such, no software???? I do not believe it.

Think of a record/CD as being a cake. There are many ingredients in a cake, which when mixed together in the right proportions (editing/mixing) and baked at the right temperature for the right amount of time (mastering/pressing) produce something yummy.

If you decided, for whatever reason, that you wanted, say, just the butter (or trance melody) without the rest of the cake would you try to extract it from the cake or would you just go to the store/dairy and get some fresh butter?

If you tried to extract just the butter from the cake do you think you'd be very successful?

At the end of the day, no matter how skilled you are in the kitchen, you cannot unbake the cake.

However, you can get just the synth melody or drums or whatever with audio. The way to do this is to go back to the original recordings/master and solo the relevant track(s). Of course, this means having access to the original tracks, which brings us back to contacting the owner(s) of the copyrights (composition & recording) and getting their permission (probably in exchange for a fee and/or points).

HTH

but you can do this with equipment, how come not software?

Mjatas

Mjatas,

Welcome back. Email me. Reverse: yahoo.comcreamtowney.

It might be time to look back at your reasons for posing your first Q.
(1)If you are intent in finding the answer, (2) what applications would bring about (3)what effects?

much love,

creamtowney

Good lord...this is back?

mjatas, you say that this can be done with equipment. What equipment is it that you speak of?

An analog sampler can't do it. A digital sampler can't do it. A tape recorder can't do it.
...and when I say can't do it, I mean can't do it with any semblance of quality.

It can't be done. Your best bet is to find the single or a remix for the song that you want to steal from. Hopefully somewhere in the track they might have just the melody playing without any drums or other sounds. Then you can steal that.