Well. Here is my take. I went to the Recording Workshop and Full Sail. I learned a lot at both, however once I got into the professional world I really put it all to work. Schools can give you a solid foundation, but don't let it get to your head.

Cheers,
-Ryan-

would one school give you an advantage to the other. Put it this way, if you were to apply as a recording engineer or w/e and lets say you went to Full Sail would they most likely chose you over other aplicants because of your schooling?

Ben, I'm not terribly impressed by most of the recording schools. It might be better if you were to receive a bachelor of science degree from a major university in the recording arts and sciences/music? I have numerous friends that followed that route and I find them far more competent than most of the quickie recording school folks, although neither is a guarantee of employment. If I was hiring, I wouldn't be impressed with one quickie school over another, I'd much rather get to know you by speaking to you? If you were swift, I'd know it. If you were stupid, I'd know it. I know a fellow who received a Ph.D. in recording engineering from the University of Maryland! I told him that I did not know of any University that offered a Ph.D. in recording engineering? He told me that at the University of Maryland you could design your own Ph.D. program. LOL!! I was asked by a friend he was recording, to go to University of Maryland Baltimore County to mix her a TV mix of her latest CD without the vocal so she could sing live on a TV show I was doing in New York City. The control room was the biggest joke I'd ever seen from a major educational institution. He had equipped the control room with a Crest PA board. I asked why he did not have a recording console and he gave me some kind of blather about this lousy PA board having better specifications than any recording console but it was completely inappropriate for a recording situation. He also wanted me to mix through an early Valley People Digital limiter on my stereo mix bus. I told him I don't mix through limiter's and he didn't understand how I could possibly get a good mix without one?? He was quite amazed at what I came up with without that crappy Digital limiter! He was incompetent! Today, he finally realized he was a lousy engineer and is now a lawyer. And that was for a major educational institution!

A few years later, I was coproducing a jazz album at Maryland's largest independent studio, Omega Recordings where their chief engineer had gone to Full Sale in Florida. When I requested a ribbon microphone for the trumpet solo and female vocal solo he had the audacity to say to me "We don't have any ribbon microphones. Ribbon microphones are noisy." First off, ribbon microphones are not noisy! Microphone preamplifiers are noisy and the good ones may happen to induce a slight bit of noise but not much when you have a trumpeter or singer just a few inches away from it. And you never say that to a producer if you have a shred of brains. That, from a "Full Sale" graduate. So I was just as unimpressed by that moron as I was the Dr.!

Of course at the Independent recording schools, they will teach you how to play with ProTools and twiddle the dials on a big console. That does not make you a recording engineer but it does give you some working knowledge of the tools you will be using later in your career, if you can make a living at your career? I have been more impressed by some of the students from the community college than I have been from either the large universities or independent recording schools, with very few exceptions.

Very few people make a legitimately good income from recording popular music. It would be more practical to learn something about radio and television broadcasting. That's how I have supported my recording habit most of my life. Although I do have GRAMMY, EMMY and Soul Train music award nominations, that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee from Starbucks. So, talent and passion along with intelligence and a good personality I think we'll take you further?

The bitter old woman at Voice Of America television
Ms. Remy Ann David

I'll just throw out the Institute of Production and Recording. Its equivalent to Full Sail (I have to say better since I am a graduate :D ). Full Sail and IPR are basically #1 and #2, instructors at both will tell you the same.

http://www.iprschool.com

I second what RemyRAD is saying.

I would much rather have someone working for me that had a good sense of him or herself, knew their limits, was willing to learn and had a good set of ears that could be trained.

I have had many people apply for internships here. They come from various backgrounds and various schools. I would say the audio schools 6 week wonders are the worst when it comes to knowing nothing and thinking they know more than they do. Full Sail is expensive and most of the graduates from there say they liked the school, liked working on all the expensive equipment but unfortunately don't have a clue when it comes to earning a living in today's audio marketplace.

Most of them seem to think that every studio is equipped with SSL consoles and Pro Tools HD and and Icon console which is simply not true. They are, in most cases well prepared and have done a lot of different things and if they paid attention and got involved in the classes generally know their stuff.

The interns that have worked out the best are the ones that gradated from a four year university with a degree in broadcasting or audio and have a college background in other subjects like business and accounting.

Today if you want to be in the audio business full time you are probably going to be working for yourself with maybe a partner or one employee tops and you need a well rounded background in subjects that are not covered at Full Said or the Recording Workshop. Things like accounting, marketing, business and psychology (you will need that to understand some of your clients)

If it were me I would go to somewhere like Peabody, MTSU at Murfreesboro , Ohio University, Cal Arts, or any of the top rated colleges that have music recording programs. While at college I would get a good general education and try to get in as much business subjects as you can.

Get a good education at a good college that has an audio program and you will be in a much better position to get a good job and stay with it.

FWIW

I hope the experts like Remy are still reading this thread...

I'm also tinkering with the idea of getting into the music/movie/TV recording industry but unlike most of the "Kids" who ask these questions, I'm 36 and have been in the workforce for 13 years.

Here's a little background on me: I have been in the Semiconductor field for 13 years, starting out as a basic technician building small simple robotics for wafer transfer, I didn't have any real basic knowledge or schooling for such a job but I was a quick learner and got lots of OJT from work. As the job went on I became a Quality control guy for the company and then becoming what I do now, I do field work. Now I'm installing much larger systems worldwide. It's a good paying job but the industry has way too many ups and downs and another fact is I'm usually away from home 80% of the time.

So by mentioning all of this I can attest to getting lots of hands-on experience is 75% and class/training will just help get a knowledge of how to set things up.

My plan of action if I want to change careers is to go to Foothil College here in the bay area of california. Luckily I already live here :P Here's a link to their site: http://www.foothill.edu/musictechnology/
How does their intinerary look compared to the other schools?

Now my biggest worry is will there be job availability when I'm done with the coarse? Will I have the intiative to get things going? Those are my biggest worries, but I believe doing at least one year of internship will help get you started. But where do seek Internships?

I do play guitar and have various equipment to play with but I would love to turn a love/hobby into a career, think this is a wise move in my position?

Dear RockmanXPR, it sounds like you already have a solid knowledge and concept of most things electronic? Ain't on-the-job training great?? We don't need no stinkin' English! ".....when I'm done with the coarse?" LOL! Let's hope that course isn't that "coarse"?

In your region of Silicon Valley this particular school seems to offer some fairly comprehensive entertainment oriented production offerings? With a reasonable introduction to audio/video production facilities this educational institution provides, that, coupled with your already working knowledge will get you up to speed quickly I believe? Of course nothing can replace actual experience but you already know that.

Can you make a living in the audio business in Silicon Valley? I would imagine you have a better chance there than in Altoona Pennsylvania? A lot of your success will depend upon your sense of business, marketing, self-promotion, who you know or get to know and never turning down a job related to the business of audio.

I would love to record more quality rock and roll along with operas and musical theater but most of what I record these days are foreign language news programs for the Voice Of America television (formerly USIA). But hey, I'm still sitting behind a substantial audio console just so I can present to people of other nations around the world some really terrible sounding audio, for which I am not at fault for nor can do anything about. Most people know it as "garbage in equals garbage out" and so there is no quality-control amongst field shooters and video editors. But it's a job in the audio business that won't get you wealthy, will keep you from being poor, won't get you any major words, royalties but it can provide you with a sense of well-being, accomplishment, professionalism, doing a job you love. I still try to go after the kind of creative recording opportunities that make me proud enough to want to play it for everybody. Unfortunately there are only so many hours in the day and so I'll just have to be happy getting paid quite well for delivering really bad sound. This had started just as a part-time freelance fill-in position back in November and now has expanded into full-time with from 6 to 14 day weeks. I'm lovin'it! What I'm not lovin' is one of the few places across the street to get something to eat, home of the "Golden Arches" and their newest advertising slogan "I'm lovin'it!", quite frankly, it's giving me gas.

To pooped to pop a microphone
Ms. Remy Ann David

that's the second reference to mcdonald's in a matter of a few weeks.

I'm so sorry. Would you rather "have it your way"? Ya' know..... you could "Eat Fresh" audio too?? But there's no way I would include a "Sub" way in my monitor system. Sometimes folks want their mixes super loud. So loud that my eyes pop outa' my head but that's another Phish story...

But I digest........now

Fat@50.nut
MS Remy Ann David

I'm with both Remy and Tom on this one.

I've had numerous inquiries for both employment and internships at my studio by numerous Full Sail and other quickie school grads. I've hired 1 and she lasted about 4 weeks. She was fully aware of the fact that she new more than I did about recording and was constantly amazed that I was not using limiters on each recording channel for the orchestra I was recording. She was also blown away that I had chosen to use Grace preamps on an orchestra over something better like Focusrites or Avalons...

There are some EXCELLENT college programs which can teach you recording and audio engineering. And, if you're smart, you can parle that into a career upon graduation. Whether it be at a studio or at a church (this is probably the biggest employer of audio engineers in the country - not only that, the job and the pay are relatively steady. I know many folks who have been the AEs at their churches for 20+ years!)

A couple programs to consider -

MTSU
Peabody
Berkley
Memphis

Another way to go would be to major in music (either performance or ed, or hell, even pedagogy). I find that most successful engineers are musicians first. The degree in music versus the degree in audio arts and sciences is about equally as useless, but they truly do educate you, so that if you are one of the fortunate ones to land a job in that field, you at least won't be a fish out of water.

Good luck!

J.

RemyRAD wrote: Dear RockmanXPR, it sounds like you already have a solid knowledge and concept of most things electronic? Ain't on-the-job training great?? We don't need no stinkin' English! ".....when I'm done with the coarse?" LOL! Let's hope that course isn't that "coarse"?

In your region of Silicon Valley this particular school seems to offer some fairly comprehensive entertainment oriented production offerings? With a reasonable introduction to audio/video production facilities this educational institution provides, that, coupled with your already working knowledge will get you up to speed quickly I believe? Of course nothing can replace actual experience but you already know that.

Can you make a living in the audio business in Silicon Valley? I would imagine you have a better chance there than in Altoona Pennsylvania? A lot of your success will depend upon your sense of business, marketing, self-promotion, who you know or get to know and never turning down a job related to the business of audio.

I would love to record more quality rock and roll along with operas and musical theater but most of what I record these days are foreign language news programs for the Voice Of America television (formerly USIA). But hey, I'm still sitting behind a substantial audio console just so I can present to people of other nations around the world some really terrible sounding audio, for which I am not at fault for nor can do anything about. Most people know it as "garbage in equals garbage out" and so there is no quality-control amongst field shooters and video editors. But it's a job in the audio business that won't get you wealthy, will keep you from being poor, won't get you any major words, royalties but it can provide you with a sense of well-being, accomplishment, professionalism, doing a job you love. I still try to go after the kind of creative recording opportunities that make me proud enough to want to play it for everybody. Unfortunately there are only so many hours in the day and so I'll just have to be happy getting paid quite well for delivering really bad sound. This had started just as a part-time freelance fill-in position back in November and now has expanded into full-time with from 6 to 14 day weeks. I'm lovin'it! What I'm not lovin' is one of the few places across the street to get something to eat, home of the "Golden Arches" and their newest advertising slogan "I'm lovin'it!", quite frankly, it's giving me gas.

To pooped to pop a microphone
Ms. Remy Ann David

Yea yea, I keep getting Course and Coarse wrong! At least I know the the difference between Then and Than, good old Texas high school education :P

On a serious note, yes the Bay Area has some good studios here, the one I'm looking at even for just Intership is Skywalker Ranch and Praire Sun Recording. Well I'm no complete expert on things electronic that's for sure.

Glad you gave some positive feedback on Foothill College's audio curriculum, makes me feel a bit more assured to apply there.

Thanks Remy!

Did somebody mention the Recording Workshop? Is that the one in Ohio?

I'm living in OH and am looking for a good school also. I know it's not gonna guarantee me the world but I am interested in learning in a classroom teacher/student environment. I've been teaching myself stuff from books and online for awhile now and feel like I wanna TALK TO SOMEBODY. Most of all it seems exciting to me.

I checked out Recording Workshops website and they seem very simple, affordable, and straight-forward. They're not flashy, hot, or expensive like Full Sail.

Can anyone else recommend any schools to look into? I am in Ohio but I got friends in LA, SF, Boston, San Diego, NYC...in other words, I'm willing to relocate for a year or two if it could pan out to a job in the music industry.

I find this to be a really interesting thread as I am considering various schools such as full sail and expressions. I have 1.5 quarters left at UC Davis and I'll be leaving with a degree in Technoculture (kinda a hybrid between film, audio, and the theory of technology).

I hear the pros here saying that Full Sail is over rated and to just work on your own skills, but here is my dilemma:

I'm not looking for a quick fix. I don't think big schools like full sail or expressions are going to be my golden ticket into the industry (i'm particularly interested in sound design for film). I AM however finding it very hard to really dig in to all of the nitty gritty details. I am a ghost on these forums who checks here every day or so for tips. I read whatever websites and and articles I can. I am a student member of AES. I own Pro Tools LE and an 002 and try to record and mix whatever I can get my hands on...but now that I am close to graduating I am still feeling very inadequate and most jobs (even entry level) seem to require knowledge of various tools and programs that I lack.

I'm writing this long winded post because I don't want to attend Full sail or expressions and later find out that I wasted a ridiculous amount of money. I just want the OPPORTUNITY to strap down and learn the tools of the trade from knowledgable professionals.

So any thoughts on my situation? Is it foolish to look into these schools? Am I really better off learning on my own and hoping that one day some kind soul will take me in and teach me everything?

the schools i am referring too:

http://www.expression.edu/

http://www.fullsail.com

[dan]

Yes, Recording Workshop is the one in Ohio (Chillicothe, specifically). While the program was extremely cool, hands-on, and informative--and I have to assume was somehow instrumental in getting my first "real-studio" position (and, similarly, for the other graduates reporting their work)--I don't know that time spent on Recording.Org and having the $3,000 to learn equipment wouldn't have been just as helpful.

Recording Workshop is really loyal to their graduates and continues to provide resources and recommendations to this day (years later), but strongly consider whether this alone is worth the time and money for the coursework.

How about those "Recording Mentor" programs? The ones where you pay to be an apprentice in a functioning studio...

I've checked out http://www.recordingmentor.com and http://www.recordingconnection.com and they seem alright. Their websites are pretty shabby but maybe they make up for it in substance.

Anyone know about these? They say they can put me in a working studio in my area and can usually get me a job AT THAT STUDIO or another when the mentorship is done.

Here's the curriculum for Recording Connection:

http://www.recordingconnection.com/recording-info-course.html

This is a tricky question these days.......I went to what was probably one of the first schools for audio in the country, College for Recording Arts in San Francisco, in 1976-77. I also went to Institute for Audio Research in NYC in 1983-84 which started as an AES workshop. The former was a well rounded curriculum with business, law, music theory, engineering, workshops, etc....the latter was more technical with acoustics, digital circuit design and so on. I'm glad I learned what I did, but the industry model is changing beneath our feet as we discuss this. Big studios that employ people are folding like card houses. I opened my own one horse town 3 years ago with no plans of hiring any help. I'd say if you truly plan on getting into this field, you'd best go to work for a broadcast company or do your own thing. I second that it helps to have some business background and to be a musician. I've been self employed pretty much my entire life, and been a performing musicican for 38 years. It helps to speak the language.

hey what u al think bout S.A.E. institut?

http://www.sae.edu/

An echo and an advert...

I'd like to repeat something that has been repeated a bit here - but not enough in the world-at-large, I'm afraid: expecting these schools to make you a super-engineer is like beating a wargame on your XBox and thinking you can go win the Iraq war by yourself. (Please, let's not go there with the discussion!!!!) There's more than tech to this...

I have met a lot of grads from these schools and almost NONE of them are working locally. This is because using the gear is only about 30% of what it takes to make it. People skills and a basic understanding of business are crucial - not to mention the fact that you must have a unique and well-formed marketing strategy to stand out. Most of these grads just don't get it.

As a result, the program I have developed for Otterbein College (in Columbus, OH) has equal parts tech/business/hands-on. It's small now, but it's growing fast. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested in learning more:

evan-wagner@otterbein.edu

BTW, one of my students just got a gig as a sound engineer before she even graduated, so we're doing something right! :)

Hey Ben, Did you ever find a good recording school?

Denise

Anybody want to talk about recording schools?

Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro, TN (about 25 miles out of Nashville) has one of the premier college programs in the industry. Business, law, marketing, tech, theory, every aspect of the industry is offered. In addition, they have a vast state of the art studio that rivals anything you can find anywhere.

Slavebell wrote: hey what u al think bout S.A.E. institut?

http://www.sae.edu/

It's a good enough school but you need to work on spelling first. no offense intended if English isn't your first language, but if it is then take it personally!

I'm going to 2nd, 3rd, or whatever MTSU as well.

I graduated there with a degree in Music Business (as opposed to the Production Tech side of the Recording Industry program).

The benefits: You have a REAL University degree....a Bachelors! If you decide not to go into the business or want a change of career, you have something to fall back on. You could minor in Business Administration. Plus having a Bachelors as opposed to a certificate makes mom and dad REAL happy that their education dollars are not going to waste!

And their studios are AMAZING and constantly growing. The program has become quite popular....so if you are thinking about it, don't slack off your freshman year like so many of us did because you need a 3.5 GPA in your "core" classes to make candidacy for the program. And with more and more people trying to get into the program and them only accepting a handful every semester/year....it's getting tough.

I couldn't say enough about the program though!

Hello all!

I would recommend either of these programs to someone considering audio engineering schools:

http://mue.music.miami.edu/index.php (undergrad & grad programs)

http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/recordingarts

Both are affiliated with university music schools requiring an audition, and both are EXTREMELY competitive, accepting about a dozen students per year. (I believe the Peabody program is a five year Bachelors program) Best of luck!

2 years ago I graduated from A.R.T.I in Orlando, which by the way is a great school. There's roughly 5-6 instructors, to the 5-6 classmates you will have the entire time. Somebody mentioned they were intrested in post production. ARTI has the first certified THX studio, equipped with an SSL Axiom, Pro Tools and the whole 9. I am in no way gaining anything from giving you this information, including what I say next. I have yet to hear anything remotely positive about the program at Full Sail. The price is outrageous, and keeps rising faster than any other school that I know of, you don't get on equipment for about 3 months (we were on small consoles within the first week at ARTI), and the average class holds a wapping 30+ from what i've heard. You keep crazy hours the whole way through the course. I've had aquaintances tell me that they've had labs at 3 in the AM! I heard a story about a full sail graduate applying at a studio in Nashville. During the interview, the owner asked the applicant what school he went too. The applicant replied, "Full Sail," then was immediately asked to leave. Could be a nasty rumor, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way. Just because a school advertises in the front and back of every Vibe, King, or Source magazine doesn't mean you should waste your 37,000 dollars on it.

I have a friend who decided to go through the "get a mentor" program....

http://www.getamentor.com/index.html

... so far he loves it. I think the thing that sold him was the rate of job placement after completing the program... they give your mentor a cash bonus to get you a job... which to me makes since as a perfect motivational tool.

I think if I were considering going to recording school, that is one thing that would be critical... job placement rates. That's one expensive piece of paper otherwise...

re: slightlyoffbeat

Don't go to ex'pression. I know people that went there and I've recorded stuff there myself, and I don't think anyone coming out of their audio department knows anything about how to make a decent recording

RemyRAD wrote: Although I do have GRAMMY, EMMY and Soul Train music award nominations

An emmy for remy! :)

I actually dont know how to pronounce remy, but they seem like they would rhyme.

Slavebell wrote: hey what u al think bout S.A.E. institut?

http://www.sae.edu/

I graduated from SAE Singapore a few years back. Didn't get a lot out of it except basic theories (which I guess applies to most kind of schools etc). Anyway the SAE I attended were just so-so, though back then they had a Neve VR, which was supposed to be the WOW console, before they replaced it with 2 x Yamaha O2R...Duh....

I don't think they are professionally managed but not sure of the SAE overseas.

But end of the day, like most would agree or have stated, going to places like SAE will only get you some basic theory and that piece of paper. And those papers, in my personal experience, do nothing. I tried getting applying jobs at studios and the first question is what experience do you have and not what kind of papers do you have. Infact none even bothers asking if I have attended any kind of school.

Sad, but I guess its a fact :)

full sail at orlando florida

If your in Ohio I suggest attending the Recording Workshop

From reading this thread, i gather that most of you guys are from the U.S. but i'll ask anyways: In the fall I will be takin the course at The Audio Recording Academy (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada), and i just want to know if it will be a good starter course to use as experience/education to get into a good college.

Here is the link to the audio recording academy's website:

http://www.taraottawa.com/

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
-Jeff

I went to New England School of Communications. Great school, great teachers. You just have to put up with being in the middle of Maine. At least there are less distractions, right?

multoc wrote: [quote=Slavebell]hey what u al think bout S.A.E. institut?

http://www.sae.edu/

It's a good enough school but you need to work on spelling first. no offense intended if English isn't your first language, but if it is then take it personally!

lol... english isn't my first language. Im learning it by myself so i know its not good but hey...atleast im trying

I don't know how others feel about this school but the one that I went to was The Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences. It is a 9 month program and I enjoyed it. it all depends on how much you put into it. the school offers a lot to those who put fourth extra effort. I learned a great deal there however, a lot of people manage to slide by and graduate doing the bare minumum and make us all look bad. The internship program was great and the teachers are cool enough to answer questions when I call years later. I must warn that the school was for my knowledge and made me better at what I do. It is not like harvard in the sense that the name alone has people beating down my door to have me work for them.

NYU's clive davis school of recorded music

It seems most people don't feel that these recording schools are worth the money. To these people, do you recommend some type of music major at a four year university, or would a degree in some other subject be equally applicable? I am just beginning my college search, and I don't want to limit myself with such a specific degree in such an unstable market

Thanks for all replies
Dylacmac

this is my take on it. I am 17 and just finished all my college apps for recording programs

from what i've heard, full sail and SAE (and those types of schools) aren't worth the money you are paying for. and also, those are 2 year programs with an associate degree or certificate.

from my research and personal opinion, schools that offer a 4 years bachelors of music degree are the best options. you will be most musically rounded which is important in a producer/engineer and can give you a big advantage. this way you come out knowing the technology of producing, but also as a musician as a producer. Also going to a music school gives you awesome connections, because you are going to be recording musicians, and what better place to meet musicians than at a music school. Schools like Berklee, SUNY Purchase offer music degrees in recording/music production.

there are other 4 year universities that have recording programs that offer a bachelors of arts degree. Schools like NYU, Indiana U, Miami U, USC, Columbia College (chicago), American U. These schools give you a full college education with a degree in recording and I think are still better than full sail.

those are the 3 main categories i see from all the recording programs. find the one that works for you. i'm not saying which is best, but i personally find the music degree most appropriate for me, because i think being a producer and a musician adds a lot more to your production than just a person who knows how to work the boards.

also keep in mind if you want to go to college for the college experience as well, then you may want to choose the last 2 of the 3 types.

you also want to keep in mind the connections (and location of the school) you will be making at the school you choose to go to, because after all, connections are one of the most important things in being successful in the music industry. Schools like Berklee that has huge alumni networks can get you a lot of opportunities (Quincy Jones went there). Schools like NYU and SUNY Purchase are right in New York. USC is right by Los Angeles. Full Sail is in the suburbs of Orlando....

might as well get a degree making horseshoes.... probably more future there.

FullSail and SAE are both great schools, and both offer bachelors now too. Im positive FS does, and almost positive that SAE does too. They are alot of money, not gonna say they are not. And pro audio is an unsatable market. Id almost go as far as to say the whole media industry is as well. With exceptions such as gaming and broadcast? N E ways, make sure you really know what your getting into b4 you get into a recording oriented degree. I attended FS 5 yrs ago b4 the prices got astronomical, and dont know if I would pay what they're asking for now. I learned a hell of a lot there, but there are other ways to go about learning stuff too if you're determined. They have all the best gear there to train on, but who gets to really use most of that stuff in the commercial world except for the best of the best and the rich, right?? lol

On a side note, the Chillicothe Recording Workshop in Ohio is only a 4-6 week program i believe. Ive had multiple people intern under me at a commercial studio, and at my private one, and I'd have to say that im far less than impressed with the knowledge they leave that school with. Not that there aren't some people that learn a lot there, but I've had bad experiences with the grads i've worked with from there :( This could be a cool place to go if you just want a general crash course in audio?

Hope this helps..