.... I want to know what you guys think as far as where "budget" gear turns to "crap" gear. Preamps:
RME Octamic/OctamicD
Focusrite Octopre Platinum
Sytek mpx4aii .....

All of these mic preamps IMO, fall into the "crap" category ... Of them all, the Syteks are the best but can still run out of headroom ... Syteks are electronically balanced and IMO, don't "sound" good ... pretty neutral (I hate that, others love it) .

Pres with transformers, like 3 stage Neve clones (Great River MP2NV, Vintech) & Sebatrons, "sound" good but are expensive. No real inexpensive solution ... if you cant afford the best, just get a Mackie mixer for mic pres, they are as good as anything else (that is inexpensive) out there.

As for monitors ... the only inexpensive ones I will recomend are the Yamaha MSP5's (not the MSP10's). The good news is they do sound pretty darn good ... KRK's and Haflers are pretty decent and don't cost a lot .... but not as nice as the Yamahas.

I've discovered this is not the place for newbs.....anything under about a grand gets pissed on, by this guy especially. Go to homerecording.org, much nicer people.

You know what, "Imissthewar", I couldn't disagree more. I find that this place is respectful of budgets and people just getting started and of people whose needs aren't those of multi-grammy winners.

If something is garbage and you're considering buying it, wouldn't you want to know, or would you perfer to just get pat on the back buy people that don't have the professional standard or interst to know the differences?

I think most people come into recording after some level of acheivement in some musical craft, guitar, bass, drums keys, singing, or whatever. We all know our own craft and hold ourselves to a high level, when entering recording I hoped to eventually acheive the same level of knowledge and skill that I have musically. I know with sub-standard gear and sloppy techinic and a lazy approach no one will get far on guitar, and no one will with recording either.

Instead of knocking the advice he got, offer your own. Shilling for another website because they're more tolerant of substandard equipment is kinda lame.

Thanks for the tip on the MP5. I see it listed on Yamahas site as the MP5A, but on some music store sites just MP5. Is the MP5A a recent update or something? And if so, should I seek that one out.

Wow I really didn't expect a recommendation that only cost $250, but I'll take it!

As for the preamps, theres really no noticeable distinction between the mackie pres and the pres I listed that go for a lot more (when you consider the other features in the mackie mixers and # of pres)?

Anyone else have an opinion? Anybody use the sytek, or is it not up to snuff for anybody here?

musicalhair wrote: You know what, "Imissthewar", I couldn't disagree more. I find that this place is respectful of budgets and people just getting started and of people whose needs aren't those of multi-grammy winners.

Maybe it's just this Cedar Flats guy then. I've seen him completely trash the Digi002, and now the Sytek is crap??!? If you're running on a budget of 5k of course you can afford a Great River and a Soundelux U195, but that's gonna be it.

musicalhair wrote: If something is garbage and you're considering buying it, wouldn't you want to know, or would you perfer to just get pat on the back buy people that don't have the professional standard or interst to know the differences?

Sure, I'd like to know if something is garbage. But 'garbage' is subjective....and depending on your budget, you gotta get what you can afford.

musicalhair wrote: I think most people come into recording after some level of acheivement in some musical craft, guitar, bass, drums keys, singing, or whatever. We all know our own craft and hold ourselves to a high level, when entering recording I hoped to eventually acheive the same level of knowledge and skill that I have musically. I know with sub-standard gear and sloppy techinic and a lazy approach no one will get far on guitar, and no one will with recording either.

Instead of knocking the advice he got, offer your own. Shilling for another website because they're more tolerant of substandard equipment is kinda lame.

They aren't more 'tolerant of substandard equipment'....it's a forum completely geared towards the HOME STUDIO OWNER, like our friend here. It's all about the entry and mid-level stuff, which is what I personally can afford, and can also make some great recordings using.

I'm just perplexed that now the Sytek MP4 is a piece of crap now and you might as well get a Mackie. To my ears there is loads of difference.

Thanks for your input "imiss" - I'll still check out the sytek then.

I have a (probably stupid) newb question. When I connect the monitors to the motu, and the motu to the powerbook, does all of the sound from the computer go out to the monitors, or just the audio from Logic? For example could I listen to CDs and mp3s and stuff through the monitors?

Sytek

I agree there is a diffrence between sytek and the mackie. I Have the Sytek 4 channel with burr brown mods on 2 channels and I think it is a great investment.

I think it is one of those units that comes as close to a high end pre as you are gonna get without forking over an additional 2,000 .

Does a Great river, Chandler, API sound better, yes...

But I would put the Sytek somewhere between the High end and the Mackie.

I'll throw in my two cents (I recently put together a project studio on a budget of 7.5k)

Mics....you're on the right track, but I'd skip the B1 and go for the C1 if you're doing vocals. I personally like the ATM on kick...it is a beat cheaper too.

Pres....I'd definitely go for the Sytek if you can afford it.

Monitors....I love my BX8s. Even more important than your gear is your ear, make sure you become familiar with your sounds. Play alot of records you like over your studio monitors to get a feel for how they will project. Heck, people say Yamaha NS10s sound like crap yet they're a studio staple.

I'm just getting started too, so ymmv.

I also have the sytek and I do use it. Its pretty neutral in the channels without BB, like Kurt says, but that is not neccesaraly bad. The clean channels sound a lot like the grace 101, though the grace have more top end and airness. The channels that have the burns brown option I find work better for pop vocals.
Add a K2 tube mic to the channels with the BB option and you have a great vocal sound happening!

Thanks for your input!

The reason I was thinking B1 in stead of C1 is that I've heard its less colored and its suited to a wider array of vocal styles (even the website makes it sound like it) even though its cheaper (which I also don't get). Is that a load of crap? I could spring for the C1 if its pretty good for vocals all around. Would it be good for any instruments too? I've been told to try the C4s on some instruments even if I only use one.

What's this ATM youre talking about? Is that a brand or model? Audio Technica?
----
"I think is one of those units that comes as close to a high end pre as you are gonna get without forking over an additional 2,000."

Thats exactly the comment I was looking for!
Sounds like Sytek is the way to go. Now I just have to be able to find that same level of quality in everything else I need :)

----

And can anyone answer the queestion from my previous post? What can I listen to through these monitors using my Motu? Any audio generated in the computer?

imissthewar wrote: I've discovered this is not the place for newbs.....anything under about a grand gets pissed on, by this guy especially. Maybe it's just this Cedar Flats guy then. I've seen him completely trash the Digi002, and now the Sytek is crap??!?

Sorry that you feel that way but I submit that anyone who can hear and has ever worked on a large format consoles or with top of the line mic pres for any length of time, would feel the same way. So I will write your reaction off to deafness or ignorance.. and as you pointed out, "this is not the place for newbs", it is the Pro Audio Forum.

"anything under about a grand gets pissed on, by this guy especially"

Yes, quality costs ... transformers are expensive ... hand built point to point wiring costs ... meaningful power supplies cost, so yes, it runs about $500 per channel (minimum) to produce a decent mic pre .. add in the expense of a case and other costs, by the time it reaches the consumer it could be around a grand.. There are alternatives... API cards are $500 each used and once you purchase the lunch box for $600, to rack and power them, you are in business. Fully loaded with 6 cards an API lunch box can be as inexpensive as $600 per channel. Sebatron makes one of the nicest sounding tube pre I have ever heard, about $900 per channel with shipping and customs .. JLM offers the TMP8 at about $2200 for eight channels! That's $225 per channel ... one of the best audio deals around.

Do Syteks and other "mid level" mic pres sound different than those found in the typical Mackie mixer? Yes, they do but IMO different doesn't necessarily equate to "better" ... it's just different.

To tell the truth, modern day solid state electronically balanced mic pres almost all sound pretty good compared to the ones that were available in the past. The specs on all of these pres are impressive. But that doesn't mean they "sound good" ...

To really get an improvement I think you have to get out of the shallow end of the pool. So I advise people to save their cash and just go for the less expensive alternative rather than line the pockets of manufacturers who exploit the novices desire for quality audio by promising "pristine" or "stellar" performance, while only delivering different or mediocre improvment, if that.

In the past I have been challenged for this opinion. I recived a particular mic pre that was in contention for many months and posted comparisons of said mic pre along with that of a Mackie ... and then asked for opinions... The lowley Mackie vlz won over the $500 stereo mic pre...

I would do the same with the Sytek if someone will send me one for a few weeks. I won't ask for one from the manufacturer because I am tired of explaning to manufacturers why they didn't get a review on their product. What am I supposed to say, that it's a rip off? I would also encourage someone else to do this instead of me .. in fact I think that would be even better. Just use a matched pair of good condenser mics (I used vintage AKG 451's) placed side by side and record a performance of a nice acoustic guitar ...

"I've seen him completely trash the Digi002
When did you see that? I have nothing against the 002 .. other that I am not a PT advocate in any sense of the word ... The pres in the 001 and 002 are not premium mic pres .. they are Focusrite Platinum pres ... but other than the pres, I am sure the 002 works just fine, even though it is over priced IMO.

I get a lot of flack for this position but that's ok .. I sleep well knowing I am offering the best advice I possibly can and not simply schilling for the manufacturers and gear pimps..

Cedar...

Cedar, can you point me in the right direction on where I can find API's used at 500 per channel. Are we talking 500 series or the 200 series?

Also have you had experience with both and is their a huge diff in sound between the 5's and 2's ?

Thanks..

You need to subscribe to a publication called "Pro Audio Marketplace"
( http://www.proaudiomarketplace.com ) Used 500's are in there for 5 or 6 bills all the time ... as is a lot of other great gear. I have found this publication to be invaluable for learnig what kind of gear is out there and in demand ans well as what stuff I have is really worth on the open market... No auction bullsh*t .. just the real prices..

CEDAR...

Also have you had experience with both and is their a huge diff in sound between the 5's and 2's ?

Thanks..

Cedar Flat Fats wrote: long ass rant

You're right, this is the PRO audio forum....I doubt I'll be visiting here much again. I don't doubt any of your opinions on gear...believe you me, if I had the money I'd be going API and Urei all the way, but I'm a broke kid that makes no money doing this, it's a hobby.

My problem with your posts was the fact that you completely disregarded the fact that this guy is a newb....maybe he was in the wrong forum, but he doesn't need someone telling him he's gotta spend $1000 a channel or he's wasting his money.

Engineering skills and the original source sound are actually the most important....so I hear. Maybe that should be preached a little more?

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. Cheers.

imissthewar,

First, you never responded to my question as to where I was slamming the 002?

IMO, all the Focusrite Platinum, PreSonus, Sytek and RNP type pres sound closer to the small mixer pres than they do to the Neve API etc. types ...

.... you completely disregarded the fact that this guy is a newb .... he doesn't need someone telling him he's gotta spend $1000 a channel or he's wasting his money.

Let's ask , who does my saying that hurt? IMO only the gear pimps and manufactures who market marginal products designed to a price point. Perhaps he does need someone telling him he's gotta spend $1000 a channel or he's wasting his money. Besides, I offered several alternatives that were considerably less than $1000 per channel. Some of these offerings are actually less expensive than some of the "budget minded" pres that are available. You seem to be ignoring that for the sake of argument.

I think that if someone can't afford a great pre, perhaps they should not waste their hard earned cash on something that really is only at best marginally better and in most cases only different.

I have been moderating here at RO for over three years now and I have seen this a hundred times ... First people ask about mid price - mid grade mic pre improvements ... and others respond with the standard answers for junk / crap pres that are marketed and hyped as being better than those found in small mixers. The problem is, these pres aren't really significantly better, just slightly different sounding. Those who have never worked with really good pres don't know any better (ignorance) and sometimes perceive these differences as better. But if they ever compared these mid grade pres with a large format console or Neve or API outboard pres, they would come to understand ... that the cheap stuff all sounds pretty much the same and is no where in the league with the great designs.

Case in point; I have a Yamaha MLA7 mic pre. I have had it around now for over ten years. I used to think that it was better than a Mackie pre because it was much "warmer" sounding... then one night during a session I decided to compare it against my MCI consoles mic pres. I was astounded to hear that the MCI was as warm but much clearer sounding. When I switched back and forth between the MLA7 and the MCI it was if a blanket was being lifted off of the speakers (with the MCI) ... I later spoke with Jim Williams at Audio Upgrades and he told me that the MLA7 was a very slow pre amp ... (slow slew rate).

Then these same people come back to us here and ask how we get "that" sound ... and we have to tell them that a lot of "that" sound is coming from boutique designs, tube types, Focusrite Red, API, or Neve / clone pres and eq and quality comps and mics... These people are then disappointed because they feel they were suckered into buying some hyped up product and take it out on me by lashing out and personally attacking me with off topic rants about how I don't like anything that costs less than $1000 because I had the audacity to point it out to them ...

Engineering skills and the original source sound are actually the most important..

Yes to a point ...and it seems to me that only reinforces my POV that a simple Mackie will do just fine.

Cedar, I'm a small studio owner from Mexico.
I have read and enjoy most of your knowledge sharing here, incluiding the anatomy of a drum mix mp3's.

In my small studio, I use an A-Designs MP2 pre, the Langevin DVC and True's Precision 8. These are the pre's that I'm more customed to hear, because I own them of course. About True's, this one has 8 pre's in a 1U rack, but a very long one. I've read its based on burr brown chips. It is very clean, with some spark on the highs. It also appears to have lots of headroom as my apogee converter clips way before there's any internal clipping on the pre.
Do you have any experience with these? Would you consider them good? I like them so far, been using them for some months now. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something. What about the MP2?...I like its smooth sound, but has a bit of high noisefloor. What do you think about these pre's?

heyman wrote: CEDAR...

Also have you had experience with both and is their a huge diff in sound between the 5's and 2's ?

Thanks..

I'll butt in here.... NO. There is not a huge difference in sound. The only real difference in sound is due to the 200 series using smaller transformers.

And the Sytek does sound diferent and better than the Mackie, at least compared to how the orginal VLZ does, and not nearly as good as any Neotek which I think the sytek were derived from.

does all audio (ie mp3s, wavs, cd audio) from the computer go into the motu via firewire and out to the monitors?

I'll be using a Powerbook G4 if that means anything

mattyg1027 wrote: does all audio (ie mp3s, wavs, cd audio) from the computer go into the motu via firewire and out to the monitors?

I'll be using a Powerbook G4 if that means anything

I don't know about the MOTu gear, but with Pro Tools, Digi created a core-audio driver where all my apps' sound (itunes, safari etc.) is relayed out through my 002r into my monitors. I assume that MOTU, not being as anal and reluctant to create a reliable and efficient driver as DIGI, would certainly have a similiar if not better system.

In Cedar's defense, he doesn't only recommend expensive gear- he pushed me towards the studio projects c4's (319 bucks) over many other more expensive brands, and i couldn't be happier.

However, i disagree with the comments about all cheap pres being equal to the mackie's. I don't think it's that black and white- more of a spectrum. I've recorded my drums in the same spot with the same mic positions (scratch tracks only- I use my better pre when needed) through mackie vlz pres and then through the 002r's pres. There was quite a difference. Probably not as much as if I'd run my OH's through say a neve clone but still, enough to make a difference. Now, I can't lie, I'm saving up for an ISA428 or maybe even a great river (gotta get that g5 and 23" HD display first), but those 002r pres were good enough for me to record a demo on that's gotten me labvel interest and a distro deal. Remember, the music and talent matters too. :)

thats cool that you are happy with your SP C4's - I'm looking into those as well.

What other mics in that price range have you been happy with? would you recommend a SP B1/B3 or C1/C3?

mattyg1027 wrote: thats cool that you are happy with your SP C4's - I'm looking into those as well.

What other mics in that price range have you been happy with? would you recommend a SP B1/B3 or C1/C3?

Yeah the c4's rock on overheads, and on my small tube guitar amp (fender blues junior). I don't record acoustics, so I can't say about that.

I haven't played with many low-cost mics- I mean, I had a marshall v67 when I first got into recording, but after that, I stepped up into a BLUE berry for vox (even though some people may consider that low cost), as well as a few sm57's, a beta 52, and the c4's. All in all, a collection that suits me quite well. I also have a universal audio 2108 pre, which is great, and a couple avalon u5 DI's that I use for synths and vintage keys. BTW, I use the digi 002r's pres for kick and snare with the 2108 on overheads with the c4's- they are very usable and in fact have given me some pretty nice results.

The SP c3 is a nice mic, I played around with a pair of them, and they are a great value for the money- however, i also have been told that the shure Large-diaphragm condensers are nice, I haven't played with them, but I heard a friend's recording with two ksm-32's on overheads and they sounded really good. I don't know anything about the rode's, haven't used one, but I hear an equal mix of apathy, love and hatred about them so I didn't even consider them when making my mic decisions.

I am extremely happy I got the BLUE berry, however, the sound is very silky and even sexy- sounds great on a male singing voice through the 2108- rich and velvety but silky on the top end. That may be out of your price range, but all I'm saying is that the BLUE mics are very, very nice and the baby bottle, which I've never personally heard but I hear people rave about, should be something you check out- it could be a real asset to your studio.

I should warn you, I am in no way an authority on this stuff, but these are the things that work for me, and again, when you buy good gear, you only buy it once, whereas when you buy crappy gear...you pay for that and THEN you end up buying the good gear down the road anyway. Four years ago, when I started getting serious, I went to buy a dbx 386 pre from a friend of mine at sam ash and he sat me down and gave me "the talk" about good gear versus crap gear. I didn't buy the dbx, I went home, saved up, got a loan, and bought quality gear, and haven't looked back.

Good luck.

Anybody use the KRK RP8's? I've been told a lot of good things about them.

Cedar you say the KRK line is good but not as good as the Yamaha msp5's. Are the yamahas better overall sound or what? I'd think that the RP8 would get better bass (and probably sound better at higher volumes) because its an 8 in not a 5, but again, I'm a newb. So, have you heard the RP8's and if so, do you really think the Yamahas are better?

Anybody else?

imissthewar wrote: I've discovered this is not the place for newbs.....anything under about a grand gets pissed on, by this guy especially. Go to homerecording.org, much nicer people.

If someone is going to build a studio out, and he/she has to ask what to buy, then they do not know enough to use it. http://www.recordingwebsite.com would be a better place to start for a newby. Once you have some experience, and know what you like/dislike, then your questions become more focused. People don't have time top design your room for a person that they do not know, for a skill they do not know, for a budget they do not know, etc. This is why you should find a local dealer who can support you.

Thanks buddy.

"If someone ... has to ask what to buy, then they do not know enough to use it."

"Once you have some experience, and know what you like/dislike, then your questions become more focused. "

Seems I won't get much experience without any gear! Its not like im not trying to read up on this stuff all over the net. I didn't just come here and expect all the answers from some elite recording pro like yourself.

"People don't have time top design your room for a person that they do not know, for a skill they do not know"

I'm sorry. I thought you might know the skill. This IS a Recording Music forum , no? Other people here seem to know about it.

Oh, whats that? you're talking about ME not knowing the skill? well, if thats the case you need to work on your grammar - in particular your continuity of pronouns. Why don't you stop wasting all of our precious time and check out a beginner grammar users forum at http://www.grammarfornewbs.com

I wasn't trying to attack you man. Sorry. But, to post "design MY studio"...you left yourself wide open. I was merely defending this site. someone stated that Kurt bashes budget gear and that everyone else is a snob.

We are not elitists. Some of us do happen to work for people who move product. We know what we like to use, what our clienetele like to use, etc. We can help if you focus the questions. Don't act like a jerk. Don't get personal. You won't last long in this business if you do.

As far as reviews/opinions are concerned, we all have differing personalities, tastes, views (based on unique exposures to people, gear, gigs, etc). So, what might be right for one guy may not be right for all. Thank God. Can you imagine having the same taste in food, friends, partners (I am being politically correct and it is killing me)?

Don't ask us a question, and expect a glowing answer about gear from MI manufacturers or, sub-par, budget priced pro gear. There will be a few exceptions, but not many.

There is a reason why costs are what they are. It is not until you have used a industry staple unit and had it last 20 years, or an MI/budget unit and had it crash in the middle of a session that you appreciate where that money was/was not spent by the manufacturer.

While we are on the subject of product failures....Yamaha. Someone mentioned Yamaha consoles earlier. There is alot of misleading information from Yamaha about the DSP, engines, etc. George Massenburg has talked to them, posted open letters in forums, etc. Yamaha will not disclose a thing. They do not support their product well. You will get some clinician-type help at the dealer level, but that is about it. When they drop a product line, they are about as bad as Sony and Mackie. Forget about future support.

I have to heartily agree with Kurt on this topic.

$ave up as much as you can. Stay with the VLZ Pro or similar for the value and get a nice pre like the Vintech 1273 (Neve clone) or Focusrite Reds.

IF you want colouration, I think the Neve is a better choice.

"Sorry. But, to post "design MY studio"...you left yourself wide open."

I'd love for you to point out where I said that. I don't think I said that, but if I did it would obviously be a joke. I'm not expecting anyone to run down everything I should purchase, but I listed some of the gear that I'm thinking of buying, and was open to discussion. If somebody said "eh thats garbage" about some of the gear I'll take it with a grain of salt because you guys are professionals, but if anybody happens to LIKE any of the gear then I would know it must be pretty good. You did see that some people like some of the gear I mentioned right?

"We are not elitists."

no, not all of you. and I appreciate the down to earth comments from the nons.

"Don't get personal. You won't last long in this business if you do. "

thats just it. I'm not trying to be in your business, so relax I won't be stealing your clientele. its going to be a hobby for me. guess that means I get to be an ass to any other ass I encounter, now doesn't it?

"Don't ask us a question, and expect a glowing answer about gear from MI manufacturers or, sub-par, budget priced pro gear."

Well I guess I won't know if the budget priced pro gear I'm looking at is sub-par until I ask around, will I? You should have said what you meant: "I'm too good for budget priced pro gear". Thats fine, I'm not. Had you said that in the first place I would have just ignored you.

Notice how cedar dislikes most budget monitors, but said the yamaha mp5s sound "pretty darn good" (at least for the price). See? Its possible to be a professional with your own standards for sound quality, yet also offer advice like this that is very useful for someone with my budget.

If you just got bitter cause I'm wasting your time, then petition to have a "10 k minimum budget required for gear advice" notice placed on the member sign up page.

Matty, Let's keep this thread focused. You can lookie-loo all around at sweetwater.com to get an idea of current product and pricing. Your best results for advice are going to be from specific questions. Not every question will be answered or some questions may not have answers that solve your problem or offer much value. Such is life from those that rely on free advice. Search through the archives around here and you will likely find mot of your basic questions already answered.

Keep in mind that most real pro's have very little to no experience in the current product made offerings of cheap/budget gear. You should search for the web for studios that use budget type gear so you can get an idea of what they are using and then email them for advice and their experience on specific pieces of gear.

"You can lookie-loo all around at sweetwater.com to get an idea of current product and pricing."

Yea I have. And according to them everything I want is as professional as it comes. I thought Id try to get some advice from someone who isn't trying to sell me something.

You may be right that I didn't come with specific enough questions, just an open request for comments on the gear I listed. I got what I came for from several helpful people on this thread. Maybe I should have searched the archives here for each piece of gear I listed, but then I also get a bunch of extraneous results.

I'm sorry if I've wasted some of your time by not being specific enough. Thanks to all who looked past the newb label on my forehead and provide me with some real useful advice.

[quote=mattyg1027] I want to know what you guys think as far as where "budget" gear turns to "crap" gear.

Here's what I'm looking at:

Powerbook G4 1.5 ghz 512 mb ram w/ LOGIC pro 6.
MOTU 828mkII

that much is pretty certain. but everything else is up in the air.

Mics:
A couple Sm57s for their various uses (snare, tom, some vocals)
SP B1 or B3 for vocals, piano, guitar etc...
SP C4 pair for drum overheads, acoustic guitar, piano etc...
Audix D6 for bass drum/bass guitar amp

Preamps:
RME Octamic/OctamicD
Focusrite Octopre Platinum
Sytek mpx4aii

I really like the price of the first two at about $110 (RME) and $120 (Focusrite) per channel, but I've heard great things about the Sytek (almost twice as much at $220 per channel). Is it really worth double the cost to me?

monitors:

clueless where to even begin. Yamahas? Whats a good recommendation for brands to check out for a pair under or around $500? I'm sure anything that is "good enough but nothing special" to some of you would be plenty good for my purposes.

Hi, I though I'd jump in with my 2 centavos at this point:

The mac with the motu 828mkii and logic is great. I am partial to Digital performer but that's besides the point. the 828 can give you up to 20 channels at a time and it already comes with 2 preamps that while not stellar are decent enough. I use them to record keyboards all the time but they are a little lacking in Gain for some mics.

Your mics of choice sound good. I might want to go with a c1 instead of a b1. for the extra $100 you get a lot more mic. can't go wrong with the c4's or the 57's. You might want to consider an akg d112 for kick instead but the audix is fine as well

the monitors- yamahas msp5 are great. For about the same price you can get an m audio bx8, which I like. go to GC, listen to the monitors in that price range and let your ears decide.

pramps- I like the syteks and use them. In that price range you might also want to look at the m audio octane as well, 8 ch that you can connect to the 828 mkii via adat optical. that would mean 8 extra ch of preamps into the motu- let me break them down for you:
2 ch 828 prreamps, built in
8 analog channels, you will need preamps (sytek, etc)
8 more channels via adat optical via a box such as the m audio octane

that's 18 channels of input, enough to record more bands and with room to grow! If you do decide sometime in the future to update your Ad conversion with say a rosetta 200, you can commect that to the 828mkii via spdif which will give you 2 more channels for a total of 20 (of course you will also need 2 more channels of preamps).

This set up should last you a long time and as you develop your recording chops you will get better and better results with it. Depending on how good you get, the set up should be good enough for basic tracks and most band demos, all based of course in your chops. keep in mind that it does take time to develop not only your recording chops but also your ears

Thanks a lot MT!

C1 it is. The only reason I was thinking I'll start with a B1 is because the SP website makes it sound like the B1 is good for a wider range of vocal styles than the C1 is (and at the price I figured I couldn't go wrong even if I upgraded to C1 later). But I'll start at the C1 now :)

Yea the GC back home had the Yamahas plugged into every one of their professional keyboards/workstations, and they sounded really good, but they didn't have them for sale! And I didn't get to hear them on any full tracks to determine if they get enough bass, but I could tell the sound was very clear. They wanted me to buy the KRK RockIts , but I demo'd the 5 in and wasnt that impressed. Maybe it wasnt a fair demo because they were sitting on top of the Event TR8s which were faced right at me on level, and sounded much better to me. Maybe the Rock It 8 at my level would have sounded just as nice as the Events - everyone there seemed to like them better (who knows if they get a better commision for selling one of the KRKs though). I want to get the Yamaha 5's and try them out at home to see if they accurately portray the whole freq spectrum, or if I should opt for an 8in from somebody else. I sure would like to have the 5's for compactness/portability.

Now, about your comment about upgrading the AD conversion. I'm confused. Would this setup you propose (Rosetta + 2 more preamps) mean improved AD conversion on just those two channels? Or would it somehow replace AD conversion in the MOTU entirely (for all tracks) - I don't see how that would work.

"keep in mind that it does take time to develop not only your recording chops but also your ears"

I look forward to the road ahead :)

oh let me also add this question:

what cables should I get for mic->pre and pre->motu? any particular brand recommendations or companies to make a good custom cable relatively cheap?

Again, I don't need the best cable money can buy, just one that won't be the weak link of my system, and is affordable, if possible.

oh and I guess I'll need two cables for Motu>Monitors. Are they different than any other TRS->XLR cable?

mattyg1027 wrote: Thanks a lot MT!
Now, about your comment about upgrading the AD conversion. I'm confused. Would this setup you propose (Rosetta + 2 more preamps) mean improved AD conversion on just those two channels? Or would it somehow replace AD conversion in the MOTU entirely (for all tracks) - I don't see how that would work.

"keep in mind that it does take time to develop not only your recording chops but also your ears"

I look forward to the road ahead :)

I din't mean to confuse you with the AD thing- I was just pointing out that you could get 2 more channels via spdif. I have a rosetta and a 828mkii and of course i get improved Ad in those 2 channels only- but those are the channels I use to record vocals and instrument overdubs. these do benefit greatly from the rosettas AD. :D The drums I recorded in the other channels do not benefit from this Ad but they do benefit from the rosetta word clock as I am running the clock from the rosetta, not the 828. If I had the money I'd but the 8 or better still the 16 ch rosetta with the firewire card to connect direct to the computer. But that will have to wait until I get a project with a decent budget....

mattyg1027 wrote: oh let me also add this question:

what cables should I get for mic->pre and pre->motu? any particular brand recommendations or companies to make a good custom cable relatively cheap?

Again, I don't need the best cable money can buy, just one that won't be the weak link of my system, and is affordable, if possible.

oh and I guess I'll need two cables for Motu>Monitors. Are they different than any other TRS->XLR cable?

I'm just using regular xlr cables. I supposed you could get into the custom cable thing but I haven't. from the motu to monitors I did get one of the more expensive brand of trs cables (monster?) i forget... Actually, someone gave them to me in trade for a little recording i did for them. I haven't tried putting a regular TRS cable instead to see if it makes a negative difference- i suppose it won't much... but what do I know! :D maybe someone out there with a positive (or negative) story on using more expensive cables can further elucidate us on this... (wow, elucidate, that's a big word- whatsimatter with this guy??!! :D ) :?

lol, that IS a big word.

thanks for the tips and clarification. I went out last night and bought some Monster cables. Lifetime guarantee!