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freightgod 6 April 2015

God bless us, everyone! o_O I might give take a crack at this one myself, but I am not a ME and definitely do not play one on TV. I think this tune will pose a challenge to some of you. Definitely not pop...not sure what it is. Have fun!

I did have this one professionally mastered back in February, but I won't offer up a link to it until all interest has died away. But I think the comparisons will be interesting (original ME will not mind, he rightly has confidence in his abilities). (y)

This is a great idea for a sub-forum, I'm thrilled to be able to offer up the first guinea pig for experimentation.

Have at it, gents! :eek:

http://recording.or…

Attached files If I Didn't Care.mp3 (6.9 MB) 

Comments

pcrecord Mon, 04/06/2015 - 17:01

Here is my shot at it ! If it was for a real production I would have address the noise we hear on and off but here it is. (specially at 1:28)
Used ITB only, Ozone 6, Fabfilter Pro L and Valhalla vintage reverb to add a tinny bit of ambiance.
Of course, If I had the whole CD to master, the decisions could have been different depending on the other songs.
I tried to compress and limit it at minimum to keep it alive.

Tell me what you think !

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files If I Didn't Care_pcrecord.mp3 (6.9 MB) 

pcrecord Tue, 04/07/2015 - 03:13

freightgod, post: 427685, member: 48902 wrote: I might have left the 'reverb' off the spoken count-in, though.

This is why a discussion with the artist is in order to make a plan before starting a mastering. You might have want to cut the counting, make the song sound like it was recorded in a specific space (pub or live venu etc...) or have a fade out. Communication is a must ! ;)

I have chosen to put less then an hour on it and as I said I could have gone forensic on it. But I think the essence of what I do is there, I like to keep things natural and just enhance what the artist has already put in the song while trying to make it more alive.

I'm glad you like it.

KurtFoster Tue, 04/07/2015 - 09:03

PC has done a good thing ... the reverb addresses a couple of issues i had with the recording which were the un natural cut off of some of the midi instruments.

i love the song. i love the arrangement. i do wish it was performed with real strings and horns .... but i love the Tuba / Bone parts .... just excellent. both of youse!

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 10:55

I've been playing with this as well., what a fun and well produced track.

From a technical POV (Track Talk), I'm noticing a few inconsistencies on the vocals/harmonies relationship, plus... , tone and volume/sss which make it hard to pin it down to how to increase the overall clarity in some spots, while avoiding more sss that"will" increase as its worked on (after that fact). I could spend a day shaping this better, or get it done in a master of minutes if those tweaks would have been caught/ addressed in the mix.

This is a tricky master if we want to do it the way one would hope. Musically, its brilliant!

If I was Mastering this for you, as pcrecord said as well... I would ask for the stems or ever better, suggest you do some tweaks before the mastering. There are some area's that would have been ideal to fix in the mix, which I also think separates a good Master (Mastering Engineer) from one that misses a few tips or suggestiones before "we master this"
Its a win win when you get it close to right before it reached mastering.

In this case, a few key tweaks would be easy to do, to make this amazing! I'm working on it as well. Hopefully I can do better than pcrecord, yours sounds great Marco!

That being said, this is what makes it all the more fun!

freightgod Tue, 04/07/2015 - 11:35

I'm glad you like the music, now I wish I had spent more time in the mix...

My ME did have me re-record the acoustic guitar track, the original was waaaay noisy with hum. Other than that I just mixed it to taste.

Of course for the purposes of this exercise, I'll have to pretend I don't have access to the original tracks...or do I? (n)

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 12:10

(ADDED NOTES:)

Here's mine. I used Sequoia 13. I suppose I could make it brighter (but at this point (hypothetically) I'd rather get you (the client) to fix the upper issues in the mix, so I could increase the (overall) clarity without adding more ss)., and that would be a personal request that I would ask my client at this point, if you wanted that.

I like it a bit warmer which encourages us to use our volume knob ;)

But, here is an interesting approach. I'm referencing this off a TV (the built in ones :) and headphones/ laptop/> 100% ITB. I'm making excuse's for some insecurities of this being a completely insane blind way to master or mix. I think this adds some interesting discussion into this.
Oh.. to match Marco's volume, I used a Fabfilter ProL and chopped 3.8db off the top.
Tell me what you think !

More Compression
[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…
Less Compression

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files freightgod-audiokid2.mp3 (6.9 MB)  freightgod-audiokid3.mp3 (6.9 MB) 

pcrecord Tue, 04/07/2015 - 13:57

audiokid, post: 427709, member: 1 wrote: In this case, a few key tweaks would be easy to do, to make this amazing! I'm working on it as well. Hopefully I can do better than pcrecord, yours sounds great Marco!

Can't wait to get to the studio and listen to your master, Chris. I'm sure you can do better than me, I'm not pretending one minute to be a ME... Althought, give me a day and I also can do better than me ! ;) I wanted to spend a very short time on it, like someone was on a budget... I also have my music to work on, you know !!

KurtFoster Tue, 04/07/2015 - 14:06

personally i like both versions. i guess i wouldn't make a very good ME ... i lean to much to the let's just get on with it approach .... yeah, that sounds pretty good. next! a good mix is a good mix. if i can hear everything and the balances are good ... well i'm happy.

a dozen recordists will have 3 dozen different takes. it can drive a bloke to drink! when i listen to music, what i hear more are performance issues.
so with this i do hear one thing (sorry). the first chorus, the harmony vocal is a little late. in the second chorus it's perfect. maybe a little edit or go back to the original multi and slide the track to match? other than this .. i just love everything all of you are doing.

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 14:07

pcrecord, post: 427726, member: 46460 wrote: Can't wait to get to the studio and listen to your master, Chris. I'm sure you can do better than me, I'm not pretending one minute to be a ME...

I'm not an ME either. Never want to be or claim to be. Which is going to become more relevant as this new forum evolves. I love it!!!

I like to think of myself as a hybrid musician who mixes into a master. It removes 2 steps and imho, produces a mix that sounds better.

pcrecord, post: 427726, member: 46460 wrote: I'm not pretending one minute to be a ME... Althought, give me a day and I also can do better than me !

Isn't that the truth!

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 14:52

Kurt Foster, post: 427728, member: 7836 wrote: personally i like both versions. i guess i wouldn't make a very good ME ... i lean to much to the let's just get on with it approach .... yeah, that sounds pretty good. next! a good mix is a good mix. if i can hear everything and the balances are good ... well i'm happy.

Thanks.
But, there are significant difference between them. And, those difference could NEVER, be accomplished via hardware. Whats interesting to me on this... rather than me all excited about my actual mix (both sound great or good enough), I'm more ecstatic how I am able to do this listening through headphones and a Large Screen TV as the monitors. LOL! The age of the DAW is screaming wow to me.
What a great song too. It really is about the music.

KurtFoster Tue, 04/07/2015 - 15:08

audiokid, post: 427733, member: 1 wrote: there are significant difference between them.

yes there are significant differences. but to me, they are apples and oranges ... and if i were to master it it might be bananas or strawberries! the same song from 2 different mixers will always be different. it's not like there's a correct answer to the puzzle. there are many roads that lead to the destination. in the end they both sound good too meee!

audiokid, post: 427733, member: 1 wrote: I'm more ecstatic how I am able to do this listening through headphones and a Large Screen TV as the monitors

it makes sense to me to mix on a system that is going to typify what the recording will be played back on. most music thes days is delivered through TV, EwwToobe or iPods .... in a few years no one will even know what a "speaker" is .... except in cars. isn't that special ?

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 15:21

I bet, these mixes would sound pretty decent on full range systems though. I don't think that's all if this. I actually think small speakers are a smarter size to mix on. And, to play audio a the magic level to where it is optimal. I mix pretty low compared to where I was a few years ago. I think full range can be distracting. That is, until you are "aware" of what not to be focused on. Its a perception thing too. Well, a lot of little things that make the bigger picture. Which is why they do fuss on some things we don't think about..

freightgod Tue, 04/07/2015 - 16:09

Before I comment on any of the above postings, I would like to share a couple thoughts.

This is a huge thrill for me to be participating in this thread.
I consider this process a continuation of a discussion and collaboration experiment .

Since there haven't been too many active participants yet, how about we take this a stage further and I make 'stems' or whatever available, as if this were a pro hire process. Full credit will be given on any future release. I'll mention you at the Grammy's and shat like that :rolleyes:

What say ye? I can export .wavs, there aren't too many tracks, I can Dropbox the files as I did on the previous project.

Now I go read and listen carefully. Note. I wear hearing assist devices (hearing aids, kids!) and listen exclusively on either AKG K701-s or my mono DKnight magicbox bluetooth speaker! So my I do okay with what I got :LOL:

Thanks again, everyone, this is a lot of fun.

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 16:22

I'd love to mix stems or actually all of it but I'm afraid my time is limited right now. I have a feeling though, there are a few others waiting to upload their versions too. I'm sure Chuck is right around the Corner ;)
I suspect Master This Mix to grow slow and then boom. I predict by next year, this forum will have more (unofficial) ME in here doing this.
Right now, this would be a thorn in the side seeing guys do this for free. I tried to get ( big name ME here), doing this years ago and NOT ONE stepped up. Thats when I should have kicked this in but I wanted to respect their sheltered existence.
To my experience, ME are not open and willing to expose themselves like this. So, we are actually doing something here that I would never have encouraged before which is for , the no professionals to Master. I think we are going to see that Mastering really isn't that big a deal anymore. Discussing it like we are doing, and getting a mix better in the first place is 95% of it.

freightgod Tue, 04/07/2015 - 16:28

I understand, I think I read this thread as a total homage to professional ME's. I can't wait to share the pro master with you guys. Anytime, you know, I have previous permission from the ME.

LOL, never mind, I realize that in the post I linked to the culmination is the professional master, so what the hell, here's a link to the Soundcloud final post:

[MEDIA=soundcloud]if-i-didntcare/20150216-if-i-didnt-care-master

Mastering Engineer credit to Cass Anawaty of Sunbreak Music
http://www.sunbreakmusic.com/

freightgod Tue, 04/07/2015 - 16:43

Guys, both masters, all three, actually, sound great. I would have been totally happy with any of them.

But I am totally happy to have paid for Cass' services as well. On the third hand, if you guys got decent rates...mwahahhahaha. Let's talk...

On the fourth hand, Cass kicked ass on that, actually.

On the fifth hand, my final mix wasn't tooo shabby, was it?

pcrecord Tue, 04/07/2015 - 17:15

Hey Chris I just had time to listen to your master. Great job, specially considering your monitoring situation. I feel you have pushed the compression and/or limiting a bit more than me and it's brighter bassier as well.
I just wonder if it would translate well on any systems (specially with the bass)
When I initially worked on it, I wanted it to sound a bit retro, so a bit less HF and more dynamic than pop music. But your approach is very appealing.

Going back between the files, I realise that I should have kept a bit more of HF in the center and tamed more of the sides to make the lead vocal be equally bright as the back vocals which are on the sides..
Here's a new version I made (15min of work added to the previous 30) ;)

I like getting comments on that kind of work, please keep at it!

[MEDIA=audio]http://recording.or…

Attached files If I Didn't Care2_pcrecord.mp3 (6.9 MB) 

pcrecord Tue, 04/07/2015 - 17:22

The big problem I hear with the track that Chris might have address better than me is the fact that many lead vocal sentences are dark then becoming bright at the end of the sentence. I'm guessing something happened either at the recording or mixing stage that is not normal... Something like a multiband compressor that resorbs on some words or a bad deesser work...
And the electric noise we here the pro ME kept. I feel going back to mix would simplify the mastering phase greatly ! ;)

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 17:51

pcrecord, post: 427750, member: 46460 wrote: The big problem I hear with the track that Chris might have address better than me is the fact that many lead vocal sentences are dark then becoming bright at the end of the sentence. I'm guessing something happened either at the recording or mixing stage that is not normal

Cool, A bit of Track Talk too:

freightgod
The tracks sounds like a lot of punch-ins using different gain staging. The results of what happens when you go back to tracking a mix that has already engaged into mixing. Am I correct? Did you start mixing this, and then redo some vocal parts?

pcrecord Also, the level inconsistencies cannot be addressed without savage editing. In the case, I hear a clearer overall vocal balance to what I did, to yours. (round one that is, which I've not listen to you current). I noticed my step as a very important step to do, regardless of how it effected other area's preconceived as compression (which I don't hear as a bad thing actually) I love the creamy Vox sound.
I'm a vocal mixer, Vocals is where I look before anything else.

I' guessing :) I used the same amount of ProL as you did, Marco? Which was 3.8 db gain smash ?Am I close?

I used very little compression, What you are noticing is me using s surgical method to de-esser which I hear better in my master ( at least from my perspective).
I think I have the the vocals better. Its a trade off always.I added around the same amount of upper mids you did but not quite as much in the mids. I also reduced the low end freq on the sides.
If I spent a day on this, I could improve it another 50% in the metallic detail of the edginess of the vocals. But, getting the stems would be a huge advantage.
Overall, like kurt says, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Part of the picky side of mastering. :):coffee:

Thanks for the kind words and the opportunity!.

pcrecord Tue, 04/07/2015 - 18:39

Chris, you had a bit more volume to your master compared to my first attempt. My second one might still be a little be lower in volume but I used a bit more or limiting.
My process :
I used M/S EQ, I used a EQ curve guide to try having a result the flatest as possible and then droped the HF on the side a bit, which I think has a bit more mids and less bass and HF. I also used M/S multiband compression (2-3 db max) to compensate back vocals being brighter than the lead. No stereo compression, just the pro-L at the end.

My thinking is, if I need to take more than 1-2 hours to master 1 song. I feel, the mix has issues that should be resolve in the mix.
I bet it would be better to offer the mix services to resolve those issues instead of fighting them at in the mastering phase.

Altought the song we use in this thread is so cool and enjoyable, it's great (for the sake of learning) that it has some defects we could exchange about.
No disrespect intended to the artist of course...
Thanks again to the OP to participate in this!

audiokid Tue, 04/07/2015 - 18:47

pcrecord, post: 427756, member: 46460 wrote: I bet it would be better to offer the mix services to resolve those issues instead of fighting them at in the mastering phase.

+1.

I'm sure we could really make this mix pop if we got the tracks! Or stems that had the vocals and the background separated. The "Tuba could be lifted up as well.

DonnyThompson Wed, 04/08/2015 - 01:56

freightgod, post: 427747, member: 48902 wrote: But I am totally happy to have paid for Cass' services as well.

Cass is a great M.E.

I've known him for many years now, and he's mastered work for me in the past; I've never been unhappy with anything he's ever done for me.
Every time I've used him to master something for me, I've always been very happy that I did.

audiokid
Chris, I don't know if you remember, but you have "met" and "spoken" with Cass before, he's one of the gang of pro's over at The Other Other Place Forum (TOOP) that I invited you to a few years ago.
He was very interested in your hybrid workflow at the time.

Cass is a very knowledgeable guy, ( a very nice guy, too) and also a great musician. He has some very nice gear, and he knows how to use it. He's one of the few pro's that I send my stuff to, if it needs to go that far.

I'd love to invite him here, but I think he's so ridiculously busy right now, as he's in the process of moving both his home and his business.
I don't know if he is staying in Oregon, or moving out of state, but, moving is moving - LOL - it doesn't matter whether you are moving 3000 miles or 3000 feet, it still sucks. LOL.

Anyway, after the smoke clears for him and he's settled in to wherever it is that he ultimately ends up, I will extend an invite to him - he'd be a serious asset here.

Matt Wed, 04/08/2015 - 20:33

Just wanted to tune in that I am enjoying this new and more interactive thread that we can all learn a lot from. I won't yet submit a version as I am not an ME and am struggling now working with compression on an overall mix, but I am enjoying this and I find that a lot of discussions always come back to the mix and that is my passion as I find a good mix will make a ME's job easy with not much to do

LarryQualm2 Wed, 04/08/2015 - 22:12

audiokid, post: 427800, member: 1 wrote: Chuck, I think you nailed this on the clarity but I feel you slammed it too much. .

You new version sounds great too Marco.

Kudo's.

I keep hoping others will participate. I hate to let the fun go...

Thanks, Chris! I did squash it a bit more than I should have. I'm looking at the compressor wondering why I set the threshold a few DB lower than I normally would have for this song. It was a about 3:30 in the am so maybe I was half asleep. !! :^(

Yes, as we know from Tony's thread, these can get real fun to participate in!!

-Chuck

pcrecord Thu, 04/09/2015 - 03:16

There is many things that can be done by the ME. Notice I said done and not fixed...
Their first goal is to place the songs at volumes and EQ that won't force people to change settings on their listening device when played against other songs.
After that, he/she might work on the sens of space and dimensions and make the song more alive and belivable.

With a multi instruments recordings, there are things that even the ME cannot do. Pitch problems, drums and bass note locking on, burried noises, bad sounding instruments and poor creativity or performances. When this happens, the ME have to decide to inform and discuss problems with the customer or not. And if he/she does, it often leads to mixing corrections. but even then, some things can't be fixed in the mix. That's why, it is so important to track good performances accuratly without creating problems from the start. To me a perfect recording leads to an easy mixing and an easy mastering.

Of course when you listen to a mastered song, you could be incline to say, oh, I would have worked on this and fix this etc...
But with now a day competitions, if he's charging 500$ for mastering an album, you bet he won't work on it for 12 full days even if the album needs it.
Many limits their work to 1 or 2 hours a song but some are more generous...

freightgod Thu, 04/09/2015 - 04:07

Just a question about 'stems', a concept I'm really unfamiliar with. Are we talking submixes, basically? Are stems supplied routinely to ME's? How are things like mix-wide reverb handled when supplying stems? There are 9 virtual instrument tracks and 7 audio tracks involved in this mix. I realize this might be a separate discussion, but maybe not. As the virtual 'customer' in this situation, what would be the ideal 'stem' supply and how would I provide it while still keeping the essence of the mix intact?

pcrecord Thu, 04/09/2015 - 05:04

Sending Stems to the ME usually meens that you send different mixdown of the song. EX : one with the vocal with -3db from your mix, your normal mix and one with the vocal at +3db. Also a mix of the music and then the vocal alone could be handy as well.
So the ME can choose or blend between those 'stems'.

To a mixing person, stems are each tracks exported with a unique starting point (usually without any processing done). Therefore, anyone can import the tracks in any DAW and remix the song.

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