Wow, that sounds pretty amazing.

Hue, how do you like PT 9? I was thinking about buying it today, then thought about upgrading my older TDM version and stopped in my tracks. Now PT10. hmm Well, I guess we were right. Now the rally starts. All those guys that recently dropped cash down on the HD's, The used is going to be flooding Ebay soon.

Looking forward to PT 10 now.
http://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software?intcmp=AV-HP-S2
http://www.avid.com/US/avid-tv/Pro-Tools-10-EuCon-Overview

Wow, are you watching the video's ? This is a nice upgrade. Disk Cache, oh ya...

I was typing as i watched the live feed. I like ProTools for the same reason that others hate it. Real time mixdown to me is essential. With a live mixdown i know what`s going on. Sometimes with other DAWs and offline mixdown, you get artifacting, or worse, you get a mix that sounds nothing like the one you were working on. I suppose it`s mostly a matter of familiarity. Getting around in ProTools is pretty easy for me and generally, I know what to expect. That being said, I find most DAWs easy to navigate. Still I find myself coming back to ProTools for audio. If I was a big midi user, I`d probably go with Cubase.

The RAM Cache thing has me curious. I`d really love to be able to use that but I don`t want to spend $15000 to do buy into an HDX card and Omni I/O or other interface.

Did they mention 64 bit? The Extended RAM Disk Cache was accessing 6 GB of RAM in the demonstration.

EDIT: Here's the deal. It's not 64 bit Native but somehow they seem to have worked around this and can give access to 4 GB of available RAM within ProTools. The 6GB of RAM that I specified above was total system RAM with 4 GB accessed for ProTools.

They recommend 8GB of system RAM.

Absolutely agree. They did mention 64 bit too.

I've tried to download Cubase a few times but its a whacked download requirement. I never get their code sent either. Something somewhere is blocking them beyond my ability to find. You need to buy a key or something too yes?. I'll have to look again because I'm curious.

I will never invest in a big Pro Tools rig again but I will buy PT 10. Its getting so advanced now. Beyond anything humanly possible. What ever happened to performance as it was tracked.
I suppose a secondhand HD rig might be interesting but I have much better hardware as it is.

ProTools 10, here I come.

For the sake of traffic, here's some video:

It looks like good news to me. (Not saying it is good news to everyone.) The FAQ says that this is the last version that will be compatible with the old hardware. The next upgrade is 64 bits. Just a hunch that UAD will upgrade to 64 at the same time or right before. I'm liking my "poor mans HD" system with the UAD DSP cards, the Fireface UFX interface and PT9 software. A smooth transition to 64 in the next year would be nice.

I'll wait a month or so to see the dust settle (and finish up the current project) to evaluate whether to go with PT10 or skip it.

I think it's great news. Looking forward to a used HD system for cheap in the next few months:tongue:.

Ya, its not 64bit. Can you believe that.

BobRogers, post: 377510 wrote: It looks like good news to me. (Not saying it is good news to everyone.) The FAQ says that this is the last version that will be compatible with the old hardware. The next upgrade is 64 bits. Just a hunch that UAD will upgrade to 64 at the same time or right before. I'm liking my "poor mans HD" system with the UAD DSP cards, the Fireface UFX interface and PT9 software. A smooth transition to 64 in the next year would be nice.

I'll wait a month or so to see the dust settle (and finish up the current project) to evaluate whether to go with PT10 or skip it.

I'm with you on that Bob. I wouldn't drop a dollar into any hardware that isn't 64 bit at this point, that's for certain. They are going to charge everyone to upgrade it just like always. And I'm guessing in about 10 months. Its already in place, they are starting this out like all the other templates.

The poor mans is looking better all the time. But wow, this new system sounds amazing.

audiokid, post: 377519 wrote: Ya, its not 64bit. Can you believe that.

This is the good by kiss to all of those (maybe you) who have hardware that can't handle 64 bits.

HD has 16,000 samples of ADC. Not sure if there was any improvement for the non-HD versions.

The [="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CpyeCHjdxSk#"]Sweetwater video[/]="http://www.youtube…"]Sweetwater video[/] has more specific description of the features.

For an HD user with hardware that can't be retrofitted to work with 64 bits, this looks like the end. And they seem to have done some clever programming to help get around the limitations of 32 bits. It looks nice enough that it may help keep the hardware resale price at a reasonable level. I also think we're seeing the long term sales pitch: It won't improve, but it's a great system, still a lot of life left in it.

For a non-HD user its not clear that this upgrade is worth it. We know the next upgrade is 64 bit, so we (at least I) will definitely shell out for that. It will probably be with a big rollout of new HD hardware - so maybe it won't be that soon. But it can't be all that long, and it's not clear that it's worth $299 to use the new features for the next six months or a year.

Update: I wasn't paying attention. The [[url=http://="http://www.sweetwat…"]64-bit ready hardware[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]64-bit ready hardware[/] has already been introduced. This makes me think that PT 11 is coming out very soon.

PT 10 is the last release that will support the old hardware. That means all the old HD, Mbox, Digi xxx hardware will be obsolete very, very soon. Well, they are already but you know what I mean.

Yes the ADC is a large improvement even for standard PT 10 but............................

The worst thing is that Disc Cache and many of the other substantial updates (including the improved ADC) are ONLY available in HDX or Complete Production Tool Kit. That's another $1500 investment for the standard PT10 users!

Cubase is starting to look very good now.

hueseph, post: 377530 wrote: ....The worst thing is that Disc Cache and many of the other substantial updates (including the improved ADC) are ONLY available in HDX or Complete Production Tool Kit. That's another $1500 investment for the standard PT10 users!...

Why only $1500? Isn't it $9,999 for HDX?

I just paid for PT9.
Now i'm buying a house...
I'm sad to see that i won't be "up to date" for a long time!!!!

N.

BobRogers, post: 377533 wrote: Why only $1500? Isn't it $9,999 for HDX?

PT10 NON-HD users need to pay an extra $1500 FOR CPTK in order to get the extra features.

What really pisses me of is that this is all cach up. For $600 you can get Cubas 6 which already has many of the new features and more. Disc Cache is apparnt in Cubase 6 in the way that it operates. They just aren't tooting their horn about I because many other DAWs already employ this.

Are they talking about 64bit / 392 interface/converters? So this means we have reached the best of 24/ 196 realm now.

Stellar converters and Disc Cache are the biggest improvement here and finally I say! Converters are everything when it comes to digital. All the best hardware in the world still sucks if your converters suck, plain and simple. Its catching up to high end analog more and more. This is a serious step towards great sounding music and performance for hybrid DAW systems too. Its only gets better.

For those stuck in the 24/196 world... its still ain't bad and its definitely looking great for the majority because we can safely say goodbye to crap across the board. The level of everything will be improved from their benchmark. Thank goodness! Top 40 will sound better. But what about MP3 and internet audio after all is said and done?

There will be something to compensate for us using all the fine 24/196 DAC if its that big an improvement.

As always, get the latest and greatest Avid , will always be behind with your CP trying to keep up, thus needing Avid hardware to compensate and make it all work. The new lines are always lacking something too. So, its all wonderful news but its a long ways off before it reached perfection once again. Its a constant chase.

Disc cache is going to be the big performance step for everyone else. This is the great divide and what keeps Avid on their toes.

What a blast.

Notice how Mitch Gallagher says in this video, you should never have issues with clipping and headroom on your master bus anymore. I thought they said that when I bought my TDM Mix system 10 years ago, and with the HD system :) . Each upgrade , tons of headroom. I guess they haven't been watching Dan's tutorial on how perfect digital summing is.
I know I know... just having fun here ... ROTF

This is all due to 32 bit float point. This is "new" and a breakthrough for ProTools but it's old hat for any other DAW. Cubase VST5(not Cubase 5) Circa 1998(?) was already 32 bit float point. 13 years later, ProTools finally catches up. The disc management system is a throw back from SAW studio.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the hype is all about things that should have been standard years ago and have been standard in most other DAWs for quite some time now.

Don't get me wrong. I really like using ProTools but, I hate the company. I hate their standards and the fact that they will drag their user base through to mud in order to wring and much money from them as possible.

Oh, and they aren't talking about 64 bit engine. Rather 64 bit architecture. Just so they can finally address the full RAM capabilities that most other DAWs have been capable of for at least a few years now.

Hey, are we able to get PT 9 from stores that have them in stock for less money now?

Good question. That would give you an instant free upgrade to 10.

Since PT9 came out I have thought of upgrading my 7.1 Academic. Now with 10 I may actually do it. Cause I need another DAW. Not to muddy the thread but the new Reaper was a pretty impressive upgrade too so something must be in the DAW creation waters these days.

audiokid, post: 377556 wrote: Hey, are we able to get PT 9 from stores that have them in stock for less money now?

I've seen several ebay sales of PT9 full version for 375 unused....startup disks and everything. If you buy PT9 after Oct1 2011 PT10 is free.

TheJackAttack, post: 377560 wrote: Since PT9 came out I have thought of upgrading my 7.1 Academic. Now with 10 I may actually do it. Cause I need another DAW. Not to muddy the thread but the new Reaper was a pretty impressive upgrade too so something must be in the DAW creation waters these days.

Ooh, John, the new version of Reaper is nice! very smooth too.

Davedog, post: 377561 wrote: I've seen several ebay sales of PT9 full version for 375 unused....startup disks and everything. If you buy PT9 after Oct1 2011 PT10 is free.

Hey Dave, thats what I wanted to hear!!

Davedog, post: 377561 wrote: I've seen several ebay sales of PT9 full version for 375 unused....startup disks and everything. If you buy PT9 after Oct1 2011 PT10 is free.

If you buy from a registered dealer. Be sure about those eBay sales. I can't find the link, but a Digi rep said on the DUC that they would continue to support PT9.

John - If you have not upgraded since PT7, I think you'll find anything after PT9 significantly better.

BobRogers, post: 377563 wrote: IfJohn - If you have not upgraded since PT7, I think you'll find anything after PT9 significantly better.

It's worse than that Bob. The last PT version I actually used was 4.7ish back in the Corps. As a civie I wanted way more out of a DAW than PT could provide me. Still behind some others but now I'm getting interested again.

audiokid, post: 377553 wrote: I guess they haven't been watching Dan's tutorial on how perfect digital summing is.

Perhaps my video reminded them that their mix engine was inferior to every other DAW on the market...

Dan, this very interesting. Please elaborate as much as you can?

And, I know you use Reaper. I just downloaded the new version, it is so clean and smooth. Do the UAD plugins and card work well with it?

audiokid, post: 377566 wrote: Dan, this very interesting. Please elaborate as much as you can?

Basically, the "infinite headroom" example I posted would not work in the current version of Pro Tools: the audio would actually clip internally as soon as it exceeded 0dB.

As an illustration: FabFilter Pro-Q is a "clean" digital EQ with no saturation or non-linearities of any kind. Because it uses floating point math internally it has literally thousands of dB of headroom above full scale, and basically it cannot clip or distort in any way. The first version therefore had no conventional level meters at all (not counting the RTA analyzer): no need for them, right?

Well actually there is one DAW that requires it: a later update added a tiny little level meter + clip light in the bottom right corner of the interface, because exceeding 0dB at any point in the chain in Pro Tools will cause hard nasty digital clipping.

So, everything they say about PT 10 having much better internal headroom is absolutely true. Thing is, every other DAW has had this for YEARS! And they haven't even caught up yet: many (most?) native DAWs now use 64 bit floats rather than 32 bit.

audiokid, post: 377566 wrote: And, I know you use Reaper. I just downloaded the new version, it is so clean and smooth. Do the UAD plugins and card work well with it?

I don't have any UAD cards so I can't really comment. However there is a specific "UAD-1 synchronous mode" in the plugins settings page, plus a warning that "anticipative FX processing" in the audio buffering may cause problems with "certain FX(UAD)". Cntrl + P will pop up the setting page for you, and you can then search for "UAD" in the find box at the bottom left.

IIRs, post: 377570 wrote: Basically, the "infinite headroom" example I posted would not work in the current version of Pro Tools: the audio would actually clip internally as soon as it exceeded 0dB.

As an illustration: FabFilter Pro-Q is a "clean" digital EQ with no saturation or non-linearities of any kind. Because it uses floating point math internally it has literally thousands of dB of headroom above full scale, and basically it cannot clip or distort in any way. The first version therefore had no conventional level meters at all (not counting the RTA analyzer): no need for them, right?

Well actually there is one DAW that requires it: a later update added a tiny little level meter + clip light in the bottom right corner of the interface, because exceeding 0dB at any point in the chain in Pro Tools will cause hard nasty digital clipping.

So, everything they say about PT 10 having much better internal headroom is absolutely true. Thing is, every other DAW has had this for YEARS! And they haven't even caught up yet: many (most?) native DAWs now use 64 bit floats rather than 32 bit.

Its starting to make more sense to me. Thank you.

Does this, or has this given ProTools a "unique" sound then?

It certainly has had ProTools users in a uniquely compromised position. Knowing that most other DAWs arrived at this technology more than ten years ago. I'm sorry. The more I look at this release, the more my head hurts. I'm glad they are trying to catch up but too little too late. And the fact that they are charging exorbitant prices for the upgrade(for example, the upgrade from Sonar 8.5 to XI is only $99) is insulting.

I would imagine a very top heavy corporation. I can't wait for Dan's response!

Air Users Blog has dedicated some time to their facebook page in order to allow PT users to protest the upgrade prices.

https://www.facebook.com/airusersgroup

audiokid, post: 377571 wrote: Its starting to make more sense to me. Thank you.

Does this, or has this given ProTools a "unique" sound then?

As I understand it, if you don't let PT clip internally then there's not going to be much - if any - difference in sound. Most of the sound defects in PT are because of internal clipping rather than the audible difference between floating point and fixed bit summing. So PT users have a "solution" - don't let the track clip. I think the reactions of "it sounds better" when people hear the 32 bit float are because a lot of people with high track counts and tons of plugins are having trouble following that rule. Once again, gain structure rules.

hueseph, post: 377644 wrote: Air Users Blog has dedicated some time to their facebook page in order to allow PT users to protest the upgrade prices.

https://www.facebook.com/airusersgroup

There's only one consistently effective way to protest high prices: don't buy.

audiokid, post: 377571 wrote: Does this, or has this given ProTools a "unique" sound then?

As already stated, if your gain structure is perfect and you never exceed full scale it won't make any difference.

However, it is quite easy to inadvertantly end up with a bad gain structure through a chain of plugs, but not realize because levels are back down below 0dB by the time it reaches the channel meters. Especially if you're in a hurry and working quickly. And even more so if you still think that you need to track as hot as possible!

I suspect this is the main reason that ITB mixing gained a reputation for sounding brittle or harsh.

As a relative newbie to digital recording but a grizzled old analog beast in real time, I can attest to this. My very early tracks had a sort of odd crunch to them and this was due to the gain-staging for PT being all wrong. I'm starting to understand why and I'm also thinking I might have to investigate 'other' DAW's to remedy my bent towards 'whacking the heck' out of the signals coming in.

I'm not really too serious about that but it is something of a learning curve for us people who are used to red lights everywhere and these only making it sound 'warmer' and 'fuller'.....you know, bounce the needles but dont let em stick too long......

I also find myself not really caring about all this stuff. I'm happy to know about it but man theres a lot of intricate details to know about in digital world recording. I guess I'm getting too old to want to bend my brain to fill it up with all this math based who-rah just to make decent sounding records<-------Ahhh....see what I did there? Records. I really really get mic placement and gain staging going to the digital device and then it gets hazy.....

End of rant.....sorry I just feel old today.....But I am doing a session later for the up and coming Franco and The Stingers! We're doing a new song thats going on the Cascade Blues Association compilation album/CD to be released end of year. For those of you I sent CD's to, this will mark the beginning of the next album's recording process. I've heard some of the new stuff and its really great!

Sorry for the hijack. I'm learning a lot. Not sure I want bash PT but damn< I just got the 9 and now all this. Maybe a full scale Reaper will make me happier....something with unlimited headroom at the mix engine would be superb for how I like music to sound. Then I could go back to 'whacking the heck' outta stuff...........Is this what you're saying Dan?? Is this actually possible with ANY digital system????

More from the Air Users Blog. [[url=http://[/URL]="http://www.airusers…"]Even Avid Admit That Pro Tools 10 Is A 'Stepping Stone' - Latest - AIR Users Blog[/]="http://www.airusers…"]Even Avid Admit That Pro Tools 10 Is A 'Stepping Stone' - Latest - AIR Users Blog[/] Avid is basically admitting that this release is a stepping stone to PT 11. It's probably a good idea to hold out one more year.

Davedog, post: 377662 wrote: Maybe a full scale Reaper will make me happier....something with unlimited headroom at the mix engine would be superb for how I like music to sound. Then I could go back to 'whacking the heck' outta stuff...........Is this what you're saying Dan?? Is this actually possible with ANY digital system????

"unlimited headroom at the mix engine" is a current reality in every other DAW!

Reaper is seriously great for mixing though. I would hate to give up "Solo in Front" mode for example... does any other DAW have that feature yet?