My immediate impression here - and I'm posting this to start the conversation some because I'll come back to this a few times over the next week or so - is that the track is very 2 dimensional in space. It's full - but it's packed up and presented in 2D. And this opinion sounds counter-intuitive to what I know I'm hearing because you got lots of different layers - a whole collage thing going on - but that's my take away in my listening space right now.

The rap part of it of course is fancy dress - so that element drags down my overall impression of what I'm hearing -- it's got a salad cream element to it as opposed to a pickle -- but that's on me to overcome so I'm trying to hear/listen beyond that....

Some of the collage was fairly inventive.... I wait still before i offer more specific feedback on what I'm hearing...

But getting back to the idea of 2D vs 3D --- I'm thinking Portishead as a starting point in comparison... I'm looking for depth and dimension in the spaces in this that I'm just not hearing today -- but Like I said - I'll revisit this for another day - just wanted to start the conversation.

Welcome to the forum mate - Rob from Vancouver here.

Dear DogsoverLava Thanks for taking the time to listen, most appreciated.

My first review and It’s salad cream not pickle, well that’s a thing...look forward to hearing more from this forum.

Regards

Rich

cowparsleyman, post: 464711, member: 51959 wrote: Dear DogsoverLava Thanks for taking the time to listen, most appreciated.

My first review and It’s salad cream not pickle, well that’s a thing...look forward to hearing more from this forum.

Regards

Rich

Hey Rich - looking forward to listening to this tomorrow... going to make some adjustments in my listening environment first. Cheers.

DogsoverLava, post: 464712, member: 48175 wrote: Hey Rich - looking forward to listening to this tomorrow... going to make some adjustments in my listening environment first. Cheers.

That’s interesting, how did you listen to it first time round?

cowparsleyman, post: 464713, member: 51959 wrote: That’s interesting, how did you listen to it first time round?

In my little home studio through the speakers - a fairly neutral setup which is good - one I know fairly well but I didn't have the volume where I wanted it.

OK - @cowparsleyman So - I listened with headphones and through my monitors -- #1 - this track is very loud - too loud for the settings I usually use when I listen to music on headphones. And when I talk about 2D vs 3D - some of this comes from that loudness - all your instruments are the same volume - this places everything on the same plane aurally. There are no dynamics to take me to different planes in the mix. You have all these interesting figures and motifs coming from several instruments - but everything is up front and in your face in the mix. It's all very forward for me. On your vocals I get the sense that you are way too close to the mic and that there's this proximity effect going on. Everything is mixed so far forward and in your face that there's no space - you've taken up all the bandwidth. I think there's some sculpting you can do with the EQ to make some room/space for some things --- I'll leave that to others to comment on or check if they get a chance.

As I listened to this my first thought was What would Trevor Horn do here? I thought of Yes in the 90215 and Big Generator era, and his work with Seal. Those are packed mixes but they have way more dimensionality and lightness....

As always - I'm just one guy listening and there are others here with way more expertise than I have that might be able to add something (or disagree with me). Do any of these ideas or thoughts land with you when you listen?

For my taste, it's over compressed over processed for no reason. Some instruments come to loud, drums need to be more in your face to make people dance..
72 tracks seems over the top for some simple song as this one..
I don't know I'd like to have it disconstructed and rebuilt with minimal effects and trickery..
Most of the sounds seems to be virtual instruments and those aren't needing much work to make them sound good.. they mostly are already mixed and mastered.. (most of the time)

Thank you pcrecord for taking the time to listen.

72 tracks is what was needed, Intro - this had 2 Vocoders on some of the Vox, each vocoder needs a MIDI track to fire it, so for 4 BV and a Lvox in that section that's 7 tracks, plus a subbuss that's 8.
The Hey Ho's were 8 BVox tracks plus a subbuss, so that's 9, have at least 1 BFD3 drum kit, a Spark2 kit, I think there's also a Air Boom 909 kit in there too, each with the commensurate amount of tracks required. A hammond B3 at the begining and a different organ at the end, the prince guitar section had I think at least 6 BV's, the bass line is an OBX, plus a Pigments plus a real Yamaha bass Guitar mixed into sub buss...tracks are starting to creep up, the ePiano was a Lounge Lizard EP4 another 2 for the samples, another 1 for the MIDI to drive stutter edit over the siren sample...(from memory)

There is also an AllInstrSubBuss and a LVoxSubBuss.

My approach to this particular genre was that the lyrics are the centrepiece, so I held up the LVox a bit more than usual, I listened to a few Rap song before starting to see how the genre expects to be delivered, and this seemed to be the norm.

It is a simple song, and I think that's one of it's assets.

With regard to it being over compressed, this could be...I wouldn't remove the first master buss comp, but I'll take a listen without the Shadow Hills.

With regard to the fx, some of these are hooks (the Sync'd Stutter over the Siren for example) and I'm afraid that's part of the song.

cowparsleyman, post: 464732, member: 51959 wrote: Thank you pcrecord

...
My approach to this particular genre was that the lyrics are the centrepiece,...

Was this a "Hey it will be neat to try a rap song" kind of thing? And - "Hey cool - I did a Rap - that was fun - next I'll do a Psychobilly song" or are you actually looking at this as some sort of commercial release representative of the kind of stuff you want to be known for?

DogsoverLava, post: 464735, member: 48175 wrote: Was this a "Hey it will be neat to try a rap song" kind of thing? And - "Hey cool - I did a Rap - that was fun - next I'll do a Psychobilly song" or are you actually looking at this as some sort of commercial release representative of the kind of stuff you want to be known for?

My impression is that it's for a client.

I feel that the mix could be tonally carved down a little to give things a bit more space. It needs a strong bottom, but it seems like it's a bit stuffy in the low mids rather than beefy down low. I want to scoop out a chunk of the synth bass around 150Hz, and maybe add a little definition somewhere between 500Hz and 2kHz. And I would probably shelf down the LF on the electric piano sound, perhaps around 200Hz (possibly on some other elements as well). If I could download the track I could be more specific about frequencies.

Maybe use less individual compression so elements trade off being up front, letting the master bus compression push them around a little. Although that's the opposite of my normal approach, it seems like the thing to do here. Perhaps that's because some of the elements are highly compressed to begin with. In my mixes I tend to be starting with real sounds I've recorded that are a bit too dynamic, so I have to compress them.

DogsoverLava

Thanks for your reply, in my first post I set out my scope...

I have embarked on a project over the last 2 years called 'Genre Jumping' each song is a different genre, with the aim of improving my mixing and production skills/techniques.

This is the driver, to improve my production, so as a producer I can understand what is involved in a rap song, and at least i can offer a smidgen of expeience from both a songwriter an artist as well as a mixing engineer and producer.

I don’t want to be nor consider myself as a commercial rapper, and it isn’t as frivalous as hey ‘look at me’. It all has a Purpose.

Was this a "Hey it will be neat to try a rap song" kind of thing? And - "Hey cool - I did a Rap - that was fun - next I'll do a Psychobilly song" or are you actually looking at this as some sort of commercial release representative of the kind of stuff you want to be known for?

It is one song, so i would be interested in hearing both critiques for both of te scenarios you put forward.

I am learning, that’s why I’m here, Im after tangible advice as to how to make the song better, in your opinion.

I like your opinion regarding the dimensionality , i can work with that, and eq, i wanted an in your face mix, with little verb on anything, so the upfront approach was intentional. i had the perception that prince used quite dry vox, and couldn’t see where verb would work...

thanks again for your time

bouldersound, post: 464737, member: 38959 wrote: I feel that the mix could be tonally carved down a little to give things a bit more space. It needs a strong bottom, but it seems like it's a bit stuffy in the low mids rather than beefy down low. I want to scoop out a chunk of the synth bass around 150Hz, and maybe add a little definition somewhere between 500Hz and 2kHz. And I would probably shelf down the LF on the electric piano sound, perhaps around 200Hz (possibly on some other elements as well). If I could download the track I could be more specific about frequencies.

Maybe use less individual compression so elements trade off being up front, letting the master bus compression push them around a little. Although that's the opposite of my normal approach, it seems like the thing to do here. Perhaps that's because some of the elements are highly compressed to begin with. In my mixes I tend to be starting with real sounds I've recorded that are a bit too dynamic, so I have to compress them.

Afternoon bouldersound thanks for taking the time to listen and critique - This is interesting indeed. I'll take another look at the insert fx on each channel and the subs, and see if there's a lot of comp going on, then that would make sense regarding the summing of the comps. I usually start off on the LVox with a light LA-2, and that's about it for Vox, I try to keep the BV's comp less, or if they are a bit intrusive I'll apply subtle comp on the sub.

I'm aware that as I like to master my dance song a bit 'hot' SoundCloud will crush it rather when streaming...

I'll revisit the song, and consider your comments, thanks again

btw the way it's not for a client, it's one of my songs.

cowparsleyman, post: 464732, member: 51959 wrote: With regard to it being over compressed, this could be...I wouldn't remove the first master buss comp, but I'll take a listen without the Shadow Hills.

Feel free to post other versions.. ;)

pcrecord, post: 464744, member: 46460 wrote: Feel free to post other versions.. ;)

OK I will, when I'm done. Thanks

If you're using samples, it might just be that they're already compressed. It's just a guess.

Once you have enough posts you can upload an mp3. I like to pop them into my DAW and use my eq to find the precise frequencies of things I'm hearing.

bouldersound - I don't use samples for my music, only for voice overs,special fx, and solos of instruments that I can't play and don't sound convincing on any VSTi's that I have.

Would you like a pre 2buss mix or a mastered version?

What do you use to analyse the frequencies?

My home studio is pretty busy right now, so I'll be back onto this when I'm able.

Thanks again for the interest.

cowparsleyman, post: 464766, member: 51959 wrote: My home studio is pretty busy right now, so I'll be back onto this when I'm able.

Don't wait too long.... there's a momentum both with learning but also keeping folks engaged. It's easy to lose people if you are not ready to follow through posting stuff based on feedback or suggested corrections. It doesn't have to be real time, but it should be pretty timely. Just a little FYI for you.

DogsoverLava - OK, noted, I just had to finish mastering an album, that's done now so i can attend to this.

I'll try and do it this evening.

I've looked at the items that you mentioned bouldersound and made some changes, there was no Shadow hills 2nd comp on the 2buss, I used the l3 maximiser from Waves, this 06072020 mix has the following amendments

ePiano (wurli) -3db @ between 400 and 800 moved it L, moved the Rhodes to the R by the same amount
Pigments bass synth - distotion fx removed, LFO slowed down, Chorus rate slowed and depth increased, Waves rbass, bypassed
L3 maximiser removed on 2bus
Vocoder on intro on intro reduced by 6db
SPAN on 2buss looks much flatter now
2buss volume reduced by -3db

I've uploaded the mp3 as requested.

Let me know what you think...

Thanks for the critique and the suggestions

[MEDIA=audio]https://recording.o…

Attached files ForumRap 06072020.mp3 (6.5 MB) 

I think it sounds much better. It lost some overall loudness which I think needs to come back to some degree.

The LF issue I was hearing is at about 78Hz. I put a .5 octave 4dB cut on the mix at 78Hz and I think it helped, but I think it really only needs to be on the bass synth (or whatever is the main bass instrument).

I like the guitar accents. Since they're between vocal lines I think they could be more featured.

While playing with the eq I tried a 2 octave boost at 7kHz. I pushed it to +5dB and I liked it. Just to be sure I wasn't crazy, I checked it against a couple of other mixes, Steely Dan's Aja and the new Public Enemy release, State of the Union (STFU).

I appreciate your labours, glad it sounds better, I’ll do the same referencing it with a hip hop song ( like for like genre might be wise, although as i said, i don’t have any...I’ll have to buy one ....) i kind of got a hunch that hip hop songs are a tad bass heavy, hence my approach to the eq of the bass instruments.

thanks again

I agree that hip hop is generally going to be heavy on the bass. Even within the genre there are variations. The PE song I listened to had a bit less density in the LF than yours, but it had more dynamic thump. It's more in your face and less groove oriented like yours, so that makes sense. I just listened to Aja to make sure my sub was set properly and to sort of calibrate my hearing to a known reference.

OK I understand now...

I'd like to hear some other perspectives to balance against mine.

It's better for sure to my ears but vocals and e-piano and organ are all still too low & mid heavy and competing with the bass (and each other). There's still a uniformity to the instrument volumes that make everything (a lot of things) in the mix sit on the same plane. I think you could work on that (and finding a reference mix would be a really good idea to work on this aspect with.) But I did like this better than the first for sure.

As for the rap part - two problems with this as an experiment in genre for you. Your flow is very generic and both the flow and the vocal interplay are reminiscent of Blondie's "Rapture" and that's not a good thing. It was OK for Blondie in 1980 - but this is 2020... this really dates your rap and creates a disparity in the track between your rather sophisticated arrangement/production and the rap.

Second issue with the rap is the diction/accent -- basically you are mimicking an accent in the same way guys who sing reggae imitate a Rasta/Jamaican patois. Now there are some white guys that can pull that off - but it takes living it and being it to get any form of authenticity.... but it's clearly a characterization here and that really again makes is less than the rest of the track aspires to be. In this current age or reckoning with respect to race and stuff like appropriation, this can be a tricky mine field to be wading into.

I'm not a big Hip Hop guy -- but I'd recommend listening to the series "Hip Hop Evolution" on Netflix -- Hip Hop has a very specific vocabulary and regional sub-genres and styles with their own grammar and stylistics..... I think you'd be better off doing some deep diving into a specific genre and getting a feel or understanding for that - then try a track that is itself more in line with that genre than this one.

DogsoverLava - Thanks for taking the time to listen and review.

By the same plane do you mean the same volume or the same spatial position? I kind of wanted a flattish dry background to the Vocals, as they feature so highly in it.

I'm generally satisfied with the delivery of the rap, it's consistent with English white guys singing, I think the characterization comes from the fact that my delivery has an edge/purpose to it, I wanted some anger to come across, it was indeed genuine, when tracking I honestly felt totally drawn into the meaning of the lyrics, as they are semi autobiographical. Since rock n roll began We never sing "Darnce", it's always been "Dance" I take it as a compliment that I can put off a Classic Rap over a contemporary vibe.

I'll consider your other comments and make a decision whether to make any further changes to it.

cowparsleyman, post: 464859, member: 51959 wrote: By the same plane do you mean the same volume or the same spatial position? I kind of wanted a flattish dry background to the Vocals, as they feature so highly in it.

It's a bit of both -- there's Left right in a stereo mix but there's also up down & forward back -- think of a mix in 3 dimensions. This mix is still very 2D to my ears - the experience of the mix. too many of the elements are carrying or competing for the same frequencies and stuff is uniformly loud across the mix -- at least to my ears - burdening it with unnecessary mass/weight. I'm trying to describe it in organic terms as opposed to technical terms.

I'm just one guy though and my expertise is limited (there are guys here with years and years more experience on the tech side - guys I'm learning from too). But I still think you need to selectively carve out frequencies from all your mix elements and possibly limit how much processing you are applying to common buses -- basically free the mix from all the weight & reserve your mastering for mastering on the 2 bus alone. I think others are hearing this too - maybe just not as specifically as I am. guys? (this is how I learn too).

I'll keep my criticism focused on the mix from now on as you are happy with the rest so that's cool. And thanks for posting this for sure - it's how we all learn.

OP,

Really solid rap and flow and the overall synth groove is really smooth and catchy. The opening vocal intro sounds like something Mike Patton of Mr. Bungle would do. The vocal performance is great. It's a straight forward oldschool early 80s throwback rhyme scheme - which is totally cool. You have enough subtle variations going on to hold the listener. Structurally the song is sound. I do agree with DogsoverLava that there is a kind of 2D-ness to the track. It is not egregious, but it sounds as though it's being lo-passed or high end being EQ'd out on the master. The frequencies are all fitting together just fine to my ears, the mix - particularly the vocals - sound slightly muffled as if being lo-passed. The vocal singing switchup at 3:15 is a cool twist!

stevie_m - thanks for taking the time to listen Stevie, i appreciate the precision of your comments, I can certainly work with your comments.

i may (or may not) have put a bax on the 2buss, How did you listen to it? Cans, speakers?

...just thought I'd let you know this song has been accepted to the VIP Soundcloud playlist...not sure what that will bring...Can anyone share their experience of this? I guess not much will come of it...