Kathy - Is the -6db peak on the 0404's input channel meter, or Audition's input/playback track meter? Are you needing more input level, or just wanting a hotter final product?

To bring up the overall level once recorded you need some compression (but not too much). If delivering to a production house, I wouldn't compress it at all - just get a good solid read and clean edits. If going direct to air/final product, then compression and EQ is needed to get a typical "radio" sound.

Let us know if that does or doesn't answer your question.

Hi Kathy -

Welcome to RO!

To add to dterry's advice, let me ask a few questions.

First, is this the device to which you're referring?

If so, how far up are you setting the gain? (The knobs at the bottom left of the device).

Other than the lower gain, how is the sound that you are getting? Do you feel it represents your voice accurately?

Also, how far are you positioned away from your microphone when recording?

Sorry if I'm asking some elementary questions, I don't know your level of skill in the audio world and don't want to make assumptions.

Cheers-
J.

Thanks so much for the responses and the welcome!

Here’s what’s happening. If I turn up the gain, the meters on both the pre-amp and the one in audition hit red, but the wave form on the playback track is limited to -6 and shows lots of flat clipped edges at -6.

Here’s what I’ve been doing to record. I set the gain low, so there’s no clipping. Then I normalize to -1, edit, used the compander preset, then normalize again.

I’ve messed around with EQ, but need to learn more. Any suggestions?

J....That's my pre-amp in the picture! And I am a little bit experience, so I know how to adjust the gain and where to stand. Although it was not that long ago that those questioned loomed huge in my mind!!! I have been working for about a year now and have done a considerable amount of work on the internet and a few local radio and tv ads. So I am pleased with my career so far. I just know there's room for lots of improvement and want to move up to the next level. So I'm writing to you all hoping to learn some new technical skills.

Again Thanks, Thanks, and more Thanks! PLease let me know your thoughts.

Kathy

Is this the waveform before you've compressed it?

The E-MU's soft limiter engages at -12dB.

In the control panel, turn it off if it's not already.

Try recording again, that should fix the clipping.

Yikes.

There's some serious distortion in there. (See the non-linearity of the waveform??)

This is interesting. It's as if the preamp is being overloaded by the input of the mic but the signal isn't that hot.

Is that your take on this too Bent??

This is an unprocessed wave form--no compression. It's just straight out of the mic.

I've played with the soft limit button on the control panel of the Emu. It is off on this take. It actually seems to be worse (to me) when I turn it on.

Kathy

Well, it looks to me like you are clipping the preamp, but have the output level set low. (Though I'm not sure I understand what an output level knob means in relation to the digital output.) Where do you have the output knob set? At any rate, your gain is about 6dB too high. See what happens if you turn that down and turn up the output,

KathyB wrote: ....If I turn up the gain, the meters on both the pre-amp and the one in audition hit red, but the wave form on the playback track is limited to -6 and shows lots of flat clipped edges at -6.

Does someone who knows Audition know what meter would hit red and then produce a wave form at -6dB?

Kathy - Are there any plugins operating when you are tracking?

Bob

I'm not sure where the output knob is. Can you look at the image posted by J and give me some help?

I don't think there are any plugins operating. In fact, I thought you could only use plugins after recording. This is an education for me!

Kathy

Bob - Does someone who knows Audition know what meter would hit red and then produce a wave form at -6dB?

I was thinking it could be a software limiter in Audition set at -6.

Though, reading through the manual I don't see one.

I'll look again at the E-MU manual and see if there's something else there that might be the culprit.

Looking again at the waveform, it sure looks to me like the soft limiter at -12 (does it look to you guys like there could be 6dB more on top of those clips?)...

Kathy, the output knob is at the top right - but I would think that would only affect the actual analog outs on the back, not the signal going into the software...

I could be way off base here so please bear with me. You keep referring to the 0404 as a preamp. You are using this device as your main sound interface right? That is you're going from the 0404 directly into Audition and not by way of the outputs into your existing onboard soundcard? Sorry, I know it's kind of a stupid question but I have to ask. :P

Kathy - it's the Main Output on the upper right of the 0404. Where is the level on the input channel of the 0404 when you are recording? Bob is suggestion you turn the input gain on the 0404 down and the Main Output up to compensate.

Audition's main level meter should show the input level as well as playback, so if it is also limited to -6db, then it's limited at the 0404.

Yes, Ben

That knob says "main output" and I've used it many times. It controls the volume to my speakers, which are plugged into the back of the preamp.

Kathy

The output knob I was referring to is the one on the upper right. My guess is that it just affects the monitors, not the digital output. so it's probably not the culprit. What we are trying to figure out here is the "gain structure." You have three gain knobs, input (lower left), Level (upper middle), and Output (upper middle). I'd guess that one of these is turned up too high and is causing the signal to clip at the converter. (And without a block diagram that's just a guess.) Where were those three levels set when you made the recording in the picture, and where did the meters hit on the e-Mu?

At some point we might stop saying the same thing...

:wink:

I didn't mean for that to come across as it might have, sorry guys!

Bob - You have three gain knobs, input (lower left), Level (upper middle), and Output (upper middle).

The 'Level' knob is actually a mix knob (here it's called 'Direct Monitor'), as on most boxes of this type, it mixes the input level (mics / instruments) with the signal playing back from the software, to your phones and / or master (monitor) outputs.

Hard to type when I'm eating my lunch. :wink:

bent wrote: ...Looking again at the waveform, it sure looks to me like the soft limiter at -12 (does it look to you guys like there could be 6dB more on top of those clips?)...

It doesn't look very soft to me. More like hard digital clipping. Now why Audition would read those as -6dB....

Lunch here too!

I don't know, but I cannot find the info in Audition's manual...

In Vegas (and protools, IIRC) the levels at the ADC should perfectly coincide with the levels the software sees. Clip on my MOTU = Clip in Vegas, -1 on MOTU = -1 in Vegas...

I have no idea why this would be happening differently here. Could be the 'soft limiter' on the E-MU is nfg?

bent wrote: ... Could be the 'soft limiter' on the E-MU is nfg?

Kathy - Could you post one clip with the limiter on and and one with it off? Let us know what the meters are showing on the e-Mu? (My ideas on the level and output knobs were clearly wrong. They are not in the circuit before the converters.)

I've got to say I'm in awe and totally overwhelmed by the help you all are offering!!

I checked Audio Hardware set up in Audition and there are three tabs. For Edit View and Multitrack View the Audio Driver is ASIO E-Mu 404/USB. But for the surround Encoder it is set a Audition Windows Sounds.

Here are all the settings on The E-Mu: Sync status is internal: mono is on: SPDIF is optical: The Direct Monitor light is set at Main.

I will record with the limiter set to on and post. I'm keeping all knobs at the same settings.

Thanks again
Kathy

KathyB wrote: I've got to say I'm in awe and totally overwhelmed by the help you all are offering!!

There are several factors which play into that.

1 - You are/were polite. (This goes a long way on this forum)
2 - Your descriptions are accurate and responses timely (again, goes a long way)
3 - There are a few of us who are on lunch breaks and are bored by the traditional "What's the best microphone for Rap" or "What's the best pair of monitors for under $2?" questions that we normally get.

My first inclinations as to the problem are identical to all of those which have already been brought up including the soft limiter, the accidentally enabled software limiter within Audition, overloading the preamp (which I'm convinced is still happening somehow but how this correlates to a brick wall at -6dBFS I have no clue!)

Let's take a step back and examine the entire picture.

The mic - how close is it to your mouth? Popscreen? Is it aimed in the right direction (sorry, I know this is a dumb question, but if we overlook the obvious, it's our own fault for chasing our own tails)?

The non-linearity of that waveform is something I'm used to seeing on moderately distorted guitars, loud trumpets and saxes and a faulty or slightly out-of-bias tube. Since none of these things are occuring, something else has to be happening prior to the input stage of your interface.

Oh - by the way, don't worry about the surround interface within the software. Since you're not accessing any of the surround features, it will not tap the internal sound card for that.

Also, where (relative to a clockface) is your preamp's gain set?

Clipping at the mic? Gain set at -6 and too close to the mic? I know. It's recording 101. I'm just anxious to see it resolved. I'm a sucker for puzzles.

Cucco - the accidentally enabled software limiter within Audition

Jeremy is right on.

Thanks to Kathy for not asking us what's the best mic to get the sound that 15 Cent has!!!

:lol:

Limiting in the software.......

That's what I'm trying to find, but there's no mention of such in the manual.

So, the only other thing I can think of is that (like Vegas) when you insert a new empty track it has 3 dynamics in it's chain - gate, comp and eq (all normally set to bypass).

If Audition does this, and they are mistakenly on with a preset to limit to -6, then that would give Kathy the result we are looking at.

?

I've just had chance to look at the waveform Kathy posted. To me, that looks like clipping, not limiting, and it's being done at the digital level - most likely simple ADC overload.

One thing occurred to me - could the dB scale in Audition be taking a scale factor into account, and what it is showing as -6dB is in fact 0dBFS? If that were the case, everything would be behaving normally (except for the scale), and it would be just a matter of turning down the main gain on the interface so the signal did not clip.

Boswell wrote: I've just had chance to look at the waveform Kathy posted. To me, that looks like clipping, not limiting, and it's being done at the digital level - most likely simple ADC overload.

That's what it looks like to me. It's just to darned ruler straight to be clipping on the preamp, and if it's a limiter its a really bad limiter.

One thing occurred to me - could the dB scale in Audition be taking a scale factor into account, and what it is showing as -6dB is in fact 0dBFS? If that were the case, everything would be behaving normally (except for the scale), and it would be just a matter of turning down the main gain on the interface so the signal did not clip.

But she can bring the signal up to -1 by normalizing.

Wow! There's a mic for 15 cents! (I AM learning a lot today:-)

The preamp gain is at 4 o'clock.

How does this one look to you all? It's still limited to -6db, but there's less clipping. I know I was recording in good proximity to the mic for this one. (And I think I was when I did the earlier recording too, but I'm beginning to doubt everything now.)

BTW I feel like I'm having lunch with all of you. It's soup with dumplings for me today.

As always , Thanks

Kathy

Oh! That last posting is with the soft limit within E-Mu on.

Kathy

4 o'clock sounds pretty high.

Try bringing it down.

How high do the LED's on the E-MU get with the pre at 4'oclock?

That wave looks better, but still it's clipping...

It's definitely lower overall, but what the heck?

Boswell, I think you're dead on about the scale.

Kathy, is this the demo version of Audition, or store bought / bundled software?

Edit> I typed Audacity instead of Audition...

If that is the signal with the soft limiter on, I can't help but think that the problem is in Audition. Is there an option within Audition to set the input level? IE: -10 instead of +4? I know this is usually a hardware setting but I thought I'd just throw it out there.

Bent

It's Audition 2.0. I bought it in June. I'm not too worried about the clipping. I know how to adjust for that. But I'd really like to get a hotter wave form--up over -6, which is where it is limited now.

Right now when I normalize to -1, everything gets pulled up including my breathing and other unwanted sounds.

Kathy

BobRogers wrote: [quote=Boswell]I've just had chance to look at the waveform Kathy posted. To me, that looks like clipping, not limiting, and it's being done at the digital level - most likely simple ADC overload.

That's what it looks like to me. It's just to darned ruler straight to be clipping on the preamp, and if it's a limiter its a really bad limiter.

I agree 100%. However, it's the asymmetry of the wave that's getting me. I've never seen female voice do this before, that's why I'm suggesting something prior to the ADC is distorting.

It's definitely clipping though AT the ADC as well. Of course, the gain being cranked to 4:00 is partly to blame - that's way too high for this mic (unless the preamp pots are just wierd...)

Kathy -
How far are you from the mic?

Is the mic oriented correctly ? It should be so that you can see the SP logo in front of you while recording.

BTW - it's a PB&J day here. I just had to be like my little boy and enjoy a little slice of nostalgia.

Huesteph

I checked audition under hardware set up and preferences and I did not spot an input level.

Kathy

Bob

Enjoy your PB&J and give your little boy a hug! My kids are grown now and I miss the days of hugs!

I usually record with the SP logo at 45 degrees to my left. But I just noticed its smack in front of me. Also the bass roll off switch on the back of the mic is set at 75. I throw that in because you said you've never seen a female voice do this.

What is it that you see?

Kathy

Sorry, just had to go and reset a DM2000 for a load-in tonight...

Kathy - But I'd really like to get a hotter wave form--up over -6, which is where it is limited now.

Yeah, we're all trying to figure that one out.

When you normalize a waveform it brings everything up relative to the loudest part of the signal, that includes your breathing.

When you do normalize it, does the waveform peak at 0 (or -1, which is where you said you were doing it to)?
In other words, does it visually go beyond this elusive -6dB area?

If it does, then why the heck is the software / hardware keeping her peaks at -6 on the in???

I've found a post on the Adobe forums, someone with this exact same issue.

Standby...

Gremlins.

The pages are slow to load.

So far it appears to be a bug in Adobe Audition 2.0