Why not call the manufacturers and ask your questions.

i don't get the point to your statement.

edit: nevermind, please don't waste space explaining it to me as i have a feeling you will try (especially being a moderator and all). it was pointless there is no good answer or explination

i will call the manufacturer, thanks for you awesome help and advice. you're making recording.org a great place to seek answers for questions concerning audio give yourself a pat on the back man

just out of curiosity, is that another way of saying you have absolutely no idea?
(feel free to answer that one, it'll probably give you more of a thrill to go the runaround and explain to me why you even bothered to make that stupid ass comment in the first place rather than to just simply ignore the topic if you had no idea what the answer is to my question)

why not just go to prosoundweb.com and ask my questions, you're a joke buddy
one things for sure don't worry because i won't be asking YOU anything ever again, not that i ever did in the first place

**anyone else who has a genuine interest in this topic, please don't let sheet sway you from response, this isn't a personal game it's the pursuit of audio engineering 'enlightenment,' some people forget that sometimes

hey stairway.... why not take a moment and answer a few questions for the newbies.... if imight suggest on a philosphical and ethical basis the way we pay for our own enlightenment is through enlightening others....

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: i don't get the point to your statement.

edit: nevermind, please don't waste space explaining it to me as i have a feeling you will try (especially being a moderator and all). it was pointless there is no good answer or explination

i will call the manufacturer, thanks for you awesome help and advice. you're making recording.org a great place to seek answers for questions concerning audio give yourself a pat on the back man

just out of curiosity, is that another way of saying you have absolutely no idea?
(feel free to answer that one, it'll probably give you more of a thrill to go the runaround and explain to me why you even bothered to make that stupid ass comment in the first place rather than to just simply ignore the topic if you had no idea what the answer is to my question)

why not just go to prosoundweb.com and ask my questions, you're a joke buddy
one things for sure don't worry because i won't be asking YOU anything ever again, not that i ever did in the first place

**anyone else who has a genuine interest in this topic, please don't let sheet sway you from response, this isn't a personal game it's the pursuit of audio engineering 'enlightenment,' some people forget that sometimes

No you smart butt. It only seems logical to call the people that design, manufacture and sell the amps in question. When I have a question about my studio gear, I don't look on a message board to see if someone can walk me through something. I go to the source, the manufacturer, to see why things are the way that they are, THEN I go to the boards to see what others are doing to work around issues/limitations.

The question is moot. Neither Orange or Hiwatt guitar amps (except for the little BS practice amps they market from China) use "monolithic' circuit designs. They use a device called a "tube", and they probably 'stack' them in some sort of dual-triode arrangement to heap lots of gain on the input...

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: the channel driven amps like the 5150, bogner, hughes and kettner, etc., do these use monolithic op-amps for their distortion channels?

As a designer I must say that for the distortion channel I would'nt really care as I would be looking for distortion whatever. Certainly an op-amp makes it simpler and cheaper to create more complex overdrive circuitry rather than the rather ubiquitous soft limiting approach. What is used by any manufacturer is likely to be determined by its model's vintage rather than any particular design philosophy.

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: do most (not multi-fx) guitar pedals (say for example boss, MXR, etc.) use discrete op-amps?

also do the orange and hiwatt multi-channel amps use monolithic or discrete op-amps for the distortion channels?

I think your knowledge is a bit lacking here as these are not the only options. I have only seen "discrete op-amps" used in things such as SSL pre-amp sections etc. I would not consider their limitations and expense in a guitar FX pedal. Many of the pedals use discrete circuitry (but NOT discrete op-amps) - examples Cry baby, MXR compressor, MXR gate, several BOSS pedals. Some FX pedals do use op-amps though - depends very much on the vintage and effect in question.

What beats me though is why do you care? Choose the pedal/amp that floats your boat!

To be certain for any particular amp/pedal you will need to do exactly what sheet suggested so why get uppity? It's the only way you will get a complete answer to your rather nebulous question.

moonbaby; i'm not implying they use monolithic circuit designs. i'm aware they use tubes. i'm implying they used hybrid IC designs with discrete (tubes) and possibly monolithic op-amps. although it make more since to me that the hiwatt and orange in particular would use discrete op-amps or some other form of discrete circuitry for their gain channels. i understand what you are saying but i am highly doubtful that their overdrive channels are created by stacking two tubes in the preamp. it's possible though, i'm not familiar with the circuitry which is why i ask in the first place.

say we are talking about the peavey 5150, well that uses two tubes in the preamp as well, but i'm willing to bet it's distortion channel is higher gain than marshall with 3 tubes or say laney with 4. or what about the newer marshalls that use one tube in the preamp. the point is all the newer channel divided models use less tubes for the most part than the older single ch. models. so hence my questioning, where in the world is all that gain coming from?

my knowledge is limited? okay then mr. knowledgable, what discrete circuitry are you referring to that is used in these pedals?

p.s. technically monolithic designs DO employ tubes.

You sure do like saying the word, "monolithic", don't you? :lol:
Yes, I'm sure that some of these manufacturers (especially the ones that don't state that their circuits are 'point-to-point') use some sort of IC in lieu of an extra preamp tube to get 'high gain' performance. Both tube and amp manufacurers have always griped that a preamp tube was almost as expensive as a power tube to make and utilize in the product. Bypassing one or more greatly reduces cost. It just doesn't sound the same, IMHO.
BTW, you should contact a company called, "Analog Devices". They also use the tradenames, "Precision Monolithic", and "SSM" (Solid State Music"). They offer excellent documentation on deigns using their IC's, ranging from compressors, to preamps/mixers, mute circuits, gates, analog synths, and much more. They will gladly send you their handbook(s), I'm sure. Check them out.

Hey andshesbuyingastairway,

Many of the schematics you'd like to compare can be found here:

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schempage.php?cat=1

CHAD

Seedlings wrote: Hey andshesbuyingastairway,

Many of the schematics you'd like to compare can be found here:

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electronics/schempage.php?cat=1

CHAD

whoa..... talk about schemo heaven... thnx for the link....

yeah for the sake of consistency, i do like using the word monolithic. sure a lot of badass electrical engineers don't give a fuck about terminology, but i'm not a badass engineer (thought you knew that by me asking these types of questions in the first place.) that's a cool site but i'm not a computer programmer, i can't read java, and i can't read this. i can't read music either, doesn't mean i can't play any piece of music i want. it just means i can't read it. so if you CAN read this and answer my simple question, then why not post it? i'm not asking really intricate questions, they are only concerning basic topology yet you are acting like you are taking offense to it.

spread the knowledge if you've got it man, don't redirect me

either that or can you tell me what little symbol represents the op-amps and how i would read the schematics to determine the answers to my questions please?

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: my knowledge is limited? okay then mr. knowledgable, what discrete circuitry are you referring to that is used in these pedals?

I can only presume this is directed at me. I also presume that your questions were seeking information due to your lack of knowledge on the subject (which by definition must be from someone more knowledgeable on the subject). With this derogatory response though I have lost all interest in trying to help you.

Good links have been provided but as it now seems that you cannot read schematics how do you expect to understand the design subtleties? Like I said before, just go with whatever floats your boat.

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: p.s. technically monolithic designs DO employ tubes.

BS.

Plug in my guitar... flip on the power to the mesa...hit a power chord....Sweet sound :) look at the back of amp yep its got tubes :) ok I am happy! Sometimes I get bogged down in the details and forget that it boils down to what sounds good and what doesn't whether it uses tubes, transistors or both. Curiosity is good as long as you have perspective.

Ya know, I believe that this guy IS liquidstudio, just by his tendency to argue back when he gets an answer he doesn't like to one of his moot, moronic questions. We are here to help those in the audio and music business , not the literacy-challenged. Good call, Mr. Ease, no more answering this guy. Where's Tommy Mod these days, anyway?

i thought his syntax gave him away awhile back...

There's also this recurring theme: "someone told me" or " I was told by a friend that" or "so-and-so at such-and-such place said". I've been trying to avoid commenting but I couldn't help reading. Too entertaining.

there are numerous types of valves used in plenty of different applications, neon signs, television, oscilloscopes, etc. LED, CRT etc. and the semiconductor crystal diode is used in monolithic circuitry as are other types i'm sure. i didn't say thermionic diodes, did i? it was your mistake to equate all diodes with those that you see in guitar amps.

look, i'm not trying to start shit. i don't know who you guys think i am but it doesn't even matter. moonbaby i enjoyed many of your posts especially in relation to that H&H we were talking about.

i'm not asking for subtleties... i asked for a very general circuitry depiction involved in these amplifiers. so if you don't want to help me, there's nothing i can do about that. if you CAN'T help me then i don't understand why you even bother to comment. but please spare me that explination. just know that any help would be appreciated believe it or not.

hey man not wanting to bust your chops here but why dont you stop sounding like a syllabus froma class you didnt take and simply converse... offer up some of this insight you would like us to believe you have... why is it none of your posts are operational in nature???? you're never trying to improve anything... oh wait a minute... are you that troll that started that little te et' te (sp?) over at sound on sound???? wanting someone else to write a book for you????

I told REMY I thought he was aqauaboy666 3 weeks ago!!! 8-)

gee... do i win anything??? i said so in his third post... april 23rd.... come on what did i win??????and i couldnt think of the aquaboy handle though...

just in case anyone was curious about that book thing i mentioned here's 2 links

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=457178&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=457383&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#457383

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: look, i'm not trying to start shit.

Then call the manufacturers for every piece of gear or technology that you have questions on. You would argue with God I think, if you didn't like the answers. Waste their time.

it never ceases to amaze me that people on forums have nothing better to do than speculate on users that THEY in fact don't like opinions of...despite the fact that well as you've already indiciated...i've never so much as given an opinion of my own here.

this topic has proven to be useless, and i can only assume it's because no one really knows the basic answers to the question at hand.

what insight am i claiming to have by asking questions? i don't feel like i can offer any insight that i do have because the topics that i create (which are nothing but trying to learn) haven't yeilded a large number of people. maybe they could on other forums, thanks for that sound on sound forum i'll check that out, that was the most productive tidbit you've offered in this topic.

p.s. remy is cool but she's an evaanna wannabe!

and yeah you're damn right i'd argue with god

god would have better arguments than you though sheet

dude how am i wasting your time? it's your choice to respond to my topics, despite the fact that you have nothing to offer it seems.

oh... they'll love you at SOS....heeheeeheee....
here try this one too...

(dead link removed)

Monolithic? Huge? VLSI? I'm feelin thick as a brick myself right now actually, with all the action in the guitar forum as of late.

Hey, I agree with Sheet, ask the manufacturers of those devices (or find the schematics).

do most (not multi-fx) guitar pedals (say for example boss, MXR, etc.) use discrete op-amps?

Well, I'd have to say no, (with Boss or MXR). Boutique pedals maybe? Still probably no.
When the term discrete is used,(I'm not saying you don't know, I'm just saying ...) it refers to a component that is made/designed/manufactured specifically to meet an exact design need. Its supposed to be better suited to its task in the circuit because of this. And therefore will cost considerably more than a mass produced part.
The fun in pedal design(hey lets plug a geetar thru it and see how it sounds), the challenge(gotta be challenging to be fun), the corporate bottom line (show me the money baby)... all say use an off the shelf op-amp, not a discrete eg. custom made one. Most of the parts are industry standard until they become obsolete and unavailable(then you pay lots of cash on ebay for them). I'm not saying a pedal manufacturer wouldn't use a proprietary chip in thier boxes, they do(but you excluded multi-fx). Op-amps are so cheap and versatile that a discrete part won't make a noticeable difference.
You should be asking about which germanium transistor in which analog overdrive or which a/d d/a converters are used if you wanna talk pedal geek talk...

MONOLITHIC AWOL GEETAR MODERATOR

honestly i beg to differ that even a discrete part coupled to a monolithic part would make a difference. and so would a lot of other engineers.

andshesbuyingastairway wrote: honestly i beg to differ that even a discrete part coupled to a monolithic part would make a difference. and so would a lot of other engineers.

Oh, you're an engineer?

We'll be running a check on stairwell's id number and IF it happens to be aquacruds then hes gone gone gone......

And NO you are not an engineer, you've had TWO of them answer your question so why pretend you know something when you obviously dont.

I dont know either but I'm not going to argue this fact with anyone.

if you were everlook at one of those datasheets you been so loath to so far... you would see a schematic of the internal wiring of that opamp... miniscule as it may be its all there... in packages allowing 1-2-4 to a chip....ie tlo71... tlo72...tlo74... these are integrated circuits.... if you were to build such a circuit out of individual devices... transistors/resistors... that then is know as a discrete opamp... some of them are built on boards along with the rest of whatever device... some are "potted" which is sealed in a resin or epoxy like susbstance... and presumptious of me but i suspect is what you mean by monlithic....