If you want the preamps

RME FF800 > simple :)

audiokid, post: 365673 wrote: If you want the preamps

RME FF800 > simple :)

Thanks! I'll check it out.

RME FF800 - only milestone purchase from $100 (SM57/58) up to $3000. Its the best combination of features, usability and value. Just go get it.

I'm very intrigued by Protools 9 and its ability to handle other audio interfaces.

Understood, but remember every other DAW has done this for years. Protools suddenly starting to give customers what they want because they can't milk the bespoke hardware market any further is no cause for celebration.

Jeemy, post: 365715 wrote: RME FF800 - only milestone purchase from $100 (SM57/58) up to $3000. Its the best combination of features, usability and value. Just go get it.

Understood, but remember every other DAW has done this for years. Protools suddenly starting to give customers what they want because they can't milk the bespoke hardware market any further is no cause for celebration.

Sweet! Another vote for the RME. It looks like exactly what I want. I just want to make sure that it's a "one time" purchase that will last a long time and I don't end up having to spend money on the next thing unless I want to. :smile:

I guess I'm intrigued by PT9 because I used PT LE. What other DAWs should I look at?

Are you Mac or PC? Its horses for courses really, there isn't much to choose between them, although some things like Sequoia apparently have better summing, I can't speak for that side of things.

I use Cubase for the same reasons as you, as I've used it since the Atari ST days. However that may end up be the reason you decide to stick with PT9. There are apparently some hardware compatibility issues with PT9 but I would guess they would iron these out soon?! Again, that inside-a-computer part is better advised by somebody other than me.

Logic & Sonar are the other big-name choices, Reaper is very cheap and as good as anything else, its PC only afaik.

Jeemy, post: 365755 wrote: Reaper is very cheap and as good as anything else, its PC only afaik.

Reaper is on OS X as well. I found it way easier to use than Cubase or ProTools, but as you said it's all horses for courses. You can try Reaper for free and the non-commercial license is only $60. Sixty bucks - you can spend more than that on coffee in a month! I happen to love Ableton Live too, even as a regular DAW, but that's just me. I love the combination of loop and sequential recording modes.

Well, I'm used to a Mac for audio recording but that's also on the list of things to buy. I sold my Powermac G4 3 years ago before a move.

If I went the Mac route again, what specs would you recommend? Right now I'm looking at the Apple iMac (21" 3.06GHz Dual Core i3) with 4gb RAM. Will that get me going and keep me going for a while? So, I would be looking at the iMac and the RME and a DAW (possibly PT9).

I would definitely go with the i3 or i5 iMac. My i5 is ridiculous - 8GB RAM but will go up 32. Unless you're running a commercial studio, the iMac will last you a while.

Hmmm...what about something from PCAudiolabs or Rain? Should I consider switching to a PC? It looks like I can get a pretty sweet machine for a comparable price and tuned to work with audio.

How does this work for a home studio set-up?

RMEFF800 ~$1700
2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7-870 ~$1800
Reaper Discounted License $40.

So, I'm looking at a total cost of $3,540 to get up and running.

p.s. Other recording equipment I have to use initially (Mackie 1202vlz3, 2 SM57, 1SM58, Alesis M1 Active MKII Monitors, Kurzweil PC88MX)

Go PC I think for cost & performance. Mac's are typically 2x the price of equivalent PC. We are controlling entire plant processes (critical stuff $20K per hour downtime) on windows server class PC's!

Reaper is very stable too, running like a charm.

I am looking at only USB 2.0 interface. I think that is all you will see into the next few years. So what is the best value in a USB interface the RME UFX??

DesertRat, post: 365797 wrote: Hmmm...what about something from PCAudiolabs or Rain? Should I consider switching to a PC? It looks like I can get a pretty sweet machine for a comparable price and tuned to work with audio.

How does this work for a home studio set-up?

RMEFF800 ~$1700
2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7-870 ~$1800
Reaper Discounted License $40.

So, I'm looking at a total cost of $3,540 to get up and running.

p.s. Other recording equipment I have to use initially (Mackie 1202vlz3, 2 SM57, 1SM58, Alesis M1 Active MKII Monitors, Kurzweil PC88MX)

Read this: Simply stating the facts from my experience over the last few years.
http://recording.org/content/687-custom-built-daw.html

audiokid, post: 365810 wrote: Read this: Simply stating the facts from my experience over the last few years.
http://recording.org/content/687-custom-built-daw.html

Nice! I read that article before I checked out the PCAudioLabs website.

So, do you think the machine I referenced above would do me well and into the future? I also saw on another of your posts that 8gb RAM was the way to go so I looked at that machine on their site.

Overall, what do you think about my initial setup of potential equipment to purchase? Thanks!

DesertRat, post: 365797 wrote: Hmmm...what about something from PCAudiolabs or Rain? Should I consider switching to a PC? It looks like I can get a pretty sweet machine for a comparable price and tuned to work with audio.

How does this work for a home studio set-up?

RMEFF800 ~$1700
2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7-870 ~$1800
Reaper Discounted License $40.

So, I'm looking at a total cost of $3,540 to get up and running.

p.s. Other recording equipment I have to use initially (Mackie 1202vlz3, 2 SM57, 1SM58, Alesis M1 Active MKII Monitors, Kurzweil PC88MX)

The PC and FF800 will be wicked! But rather than me tell you whats best, the guys here are spot on.
I'd hang out here for a while before you buy, read more on things.

Reaper is the Dark Horse and sooo smooth but there are others like PT 9, Sonar, Cubase Samplitude etc that are great too. You kind of want to get onto one , get used to it and then start flying. Reaper is so reasonable that you really can't loose. Most of the DAW programs are $500 plus. They all do similar things and just look different but they are similar and will all produce hit songs if you know what you are doing, have a great sounding room, converters, mics and so on.

You need 8 gig to run any DAW and Win7 smoothly.
The best thing you can do is decide whether you are going Apple or PC, get a good, or great converter and then take baby steps as you buy the goodies. Don't get caught up in all the G.A.S.

The vets here will guide you well. There are no shills around here so hang out and read. Call PCAudioLabs and tell them what you are doing . They will not over or under sell you.

Hope that helps.

audiokid, post: 365813 wrote: The PC and FF800 will be wicked! But rather than me tell you whats best, the guys here are spot on.
I'd hang out here for a while before you buy, read more on things.

Reaper is the Dark Horse and sooo smooth but there are others like PT 9, Sonar, Cubase Samplitude etc that are great too. You kind of want to get onto one , get used to it and then start flying. Reaper is so reasonable that you really can't loose. Most of the DAW programs are $500 plus. They all do similar things and just look different but they are similar and will all produce hit songs if you know what you are doing, have a great sounding room, converters, mics and so on.

You need 8 gig to run any DAW and Win7 smoothly.
The best thing you can do is decide whether you are going Apple or PC, get a good, or great converter and then take baby steps as you buy the goodies. Don't get caught up in all the G.A.S.

The vets here will guide you well. There are no shills around here so hang out and read. Call PCAudioLabs and tell them what you are doing . They will not over or under sell you.

Hope that helps.

That helps alot actually. I bought into the ProTools hardware thing a while back and don't want to get caught up in the G.A.S. again. Initially I want to get the PC or Mac, Pre-amp/converter/interface, and Reaper before I go down the DAW, microphone, preamp rabbit hole. :) I just want to make sure that I won't outgrow where I start or regret buying this instead of buying that. That whole game. I'm willing to pay a bit more for that reason as long as I feel it's a great foundation. That's why I'm looking at the RME and the PCAudioLabs PC right now.

Does that make sense?

Thanks!

perfect sense.

I have a feeling (like most everything) there is going to be something new in the converter market this year so be prepared. I would expect Lynx to do something cool but its only speculation. Lets see if I'm right. Could be other new companies. I cannot believe it the converter market has so limited competition. PT 9 is going to open this up.
RME is great and the FF800 is not the best sounding but as a combo and what you get for that price... nothing touches it. Should you decide to step up your interface/conversion if something comes online, you will still be able to sell it.

Cheers!

I had a look at the PC audio labs. Nice cosmetics and they play to the industry, but a media-saavy PC can and will do the same thing probably for less $. A pc is a pc at the end of the day. processor speed, ram and build quality. Dells are good, HPs can be too. I guess quiet fans are nice but i've never heard a fan on a recording with a mic 6-10 feet away.

You can also run XP, or Vista with everything disabled. We are using 3 x HP Media Center PC's boought them at staples $800 they come with firewire and USB's, card readers and inputs and outputs front and back pretty handy actually but had to replace a power supply in one of them. They are choking at about 24 tracks with effects. Have about 4 gigs ram not sure actually. My son has one, I have one and the studio has one.

HD video now that is a processing hog, audio is dick and jane in comparison.

audiokid, post: 365817 wrote: perfect sense.

I have a feeling (like most everything) there is going to be something new in the converter market this year so be prepared. I would expect Lynx to do something cool but its only speculation. Lets see if I'm right. Could be other new companies. I cannot believe it the converter market has so limited competition. PT 9 is going to open this up.
RME is great and the FF800 is not the best sounding but as a combo and what you get for that price... nothing touches it. Should you decide to step up your interface/conversion if something comes online, you will still be able to sell it.

Cheers!

Another question for you audiokid, if you don't mind. Would it be better to invest more of my funds in a great pre-amp and then a separate converter. In other words, buy a 2 channel pre-amp that I would use "forever" like a Great River MP-2NV and then as converter technology changes, upgrade my converter? I guess I'm worried about the pre-amps in the RME sounding less than expected or am I just splitting hairs here and over analyzing?

Would there even be a separate pre-amp and converter packaged together that would cost about $2,000 that would work/sound better than the RME? I know the GR is about $2,300 on its own.

For 1/2 of the RME and with faster than firewire USB 2.0 look at:

M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8R - High-speed 8 x 8 USB 2.0 Interface with 8 Preamps and MX Core DSP
Tascam 2000 too

All look like great interfaces with decent specs too.

USB is hardly faster than firewire in actual day to day usage. No one has yet created usb2.0 to work at potential. Also, the RME Fireface circuitry and drivers eat any M-Audio garbage for lunch. So yes it's less money but it is also less capable and sounds crappy to boot. There may be decent Tascam stuff but if in fact it is all very high end gear and that Tascam 2000 unit is not it. The low end Tascam preamps are just as garbage as the M-Audio.

SharkFM, post: 365828 wrote: I had a look at the PC audio labs. Nice cosmetics and they play to the industry, but a media-saavy PC can and will do the same thing probably for less $. A pc is a pc at the end of the day. processor speed, ram and build quality. Dells are good, HPs can be too. I guess quiet fans are nice but i've never heard a fan on a recording with a mic 6-10 feet away.

You can also run XP, or Vista with everything disabled. We are using 3 x HP Media Center PC's boought them at staples $800 they come with firewire and USB's, card readers and inputs and outputs front and back pretty handy actually but had to replace a power supply in one of them. They are choking at about 24 tracks with effects. Have about 4 gigs ram not sure actually. My son has one, I have one and the studio has one.

HD video now that is a processing hog, audio is dick and jane in comparison.

Not sure I agree with the watered down or Home PC. Its the reason 90% of the pro audio industry is using Mac's. Too many cheapo PC junk, bad power supplies, junk parts etc messing up the Pro versions.

I can also hear a fan in another room. But I'm also into the sensitive detail.

Vista is crap.

You need 8 gig.

Cheers!

Lol..
when I read "choking at 24 tracks" I went back a few pages to see if this was a warmed-up topic from 2002. No offends, but what crap of a PC did you buy, there? My 2.4 single core P5 PC, many years back, could do more than that. These days, when making a track count test I'd fall asleep at maybe 200. I didn't even bother to test the lates i7 box. A full size CD production doesn't even make it look up from its morning paper.

There are certain incompatibilities between MoBos and other parts that don't bother anybody else but come painfully to daylight when working pro audio with them. A shop, no matter how small or huge it may be, that can fix you up with good quality parts that work hand in hand would be worth a few extra bucks, anytime.
I have never had a faulty power supply, MoBo, Ram, ..not even CD/DVD burner. This might be a lucky coincidence, but then, this luck stretches over 10 PCs and 14 years. Same with RME gear: buy it and forget it...It keeps on working flawless in good quality. Something that I know is not the case with the afore mentioned Tascam and M-Aduio stuff. WYPIWYG... very often. Safing a few Dollars is not worth risking to be a single day offline, keeping a customer waiting.

Great discussion guys. I appreciate the knowledge transfer!

So, back to my question: Would it make sense to buy a separate pre-amp for the long term and a separate converter that I could upgrade than the RMEFF800 or will the RME work well? Also, is there such a thing for around $2000.

I'm obviously not a pro or anything but would like to keep up with recording in the future and not have to keep spending money on the next thing. That kind of happened to me with my Digi001 set-up. I seemed to be chasing the latest and greatest.

Sorry to keep asking the same question over again. :)

audiokid, post: 365817 wrote: ...I have a feeling (like most everything) there is going to be something new in the converter market this year so be prepared. I would expect Lynx to do something cool but its only speculation. Lets see if I'm right. Could be other new companies. I cannot believe it the converter market has so limited competition. PT 9 is going to open this up...

[Emphasis mine.]

We'll see about your prediction, but I definitely find it strange that there is so little competition over converters. Units like the Fireface, Alesis HD24X with a reputation for good converters have them bundled with a lot of other stuff for far less than the competition. So where are the 8 in 8 out for $800 converter boxes? We need to get a nice little price war going.

A Fireface or similar quality will last indefinitely especially if you aren't in a full blown studio. Low-balling with M-Audio won't.

Bad gear is GOOOOD!!
It caters for a constant supply of flimsy excuses for bad sound and other limitations...lol...

Where are the loudmouths who claim they can do all those great productions with low budget gear, as well?
Have they become a dying species? ;-))... Audio Dodo birds or slow learners?
Btw, Alsihad 9 native will not make you a happy man ( yet ). Did I say that before??

Nothing makes an Audio Engineer more happy then switching on his studio and to see: it all works!
There are shortcuts when building a studio setup nobody should go, unless he's a masochistic millionaire.

Big K, post: 365881 wrote: ...Where are the loudmouths who claim they can do all those great productions with low budget gear, as well?...

[[url=http://[/URL]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Here?[/]="http://en.wikipedia…"]Here?[/]

Nice, ...
Excellent and seasoned musicians, 5 composers, 4 good engineers and a great Mastering house.
Not the constellation we should expect soon in this context, here.
:smile:

DesertRat, post: 365867 wrote: ...So, back to my question: Would it make sense to buy a separate pre-amp for the long term and a separate converter that I could upgrade than the RMEFF800 or will the RME work well? Also, is there such a thing for around $2000...

As I sort of indicated in the previous post in response to audiokid, I don't really think there is much in the way of separate converter units at that price point. There's the the [="http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ADI8ProDS/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=recording&utm_term=rme_adi-8_ds&gclid=COmViYLFv6cCFQQ65QodcXoNBg"]RME ADI-8[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME ADI-8[/] but it's almost the same price as the FF800. The [[url=http://="http://www.sweetwat…"]Lynx [/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Lynx [/]are even more when connected and cabled.

BobRogers, post: 365888 wrote: As I sort of indicated in the previous post in response to audiokid, I don't really think there is much in the way of separate converter units at that price point. There's the the [="http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ADI8ProDS/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=recording&utm_term=rme_adi-8_ds&gclid=COmViYLFv6cCFQQ65QodcXoNBg"]RME ADI-8[/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]RME ADI-8[/] but it's almost the same price as the FF800. The [[url=http://="http://www.sweetwat…"]Lynx [/]="http://www.sweetwat…"]Lynx [/]are even more when connected and cabled.

Thanks Bob. So for now I'm going to do some more research on the RME FF800. It's within my budget and I think a good starting place. Hopefully GAS won't get the better of me. All of this equipment is so shiny. :)

please read carefully-> 24 tracks with effects. a serious compliment of effects. Just checked our audio recording PC i forgot that i raided it's memory bank so there are only 2 gigs in there! so that is the reason for the red flashing warnings we are getting at the completed production stage. for a bare bones rock band 24 tracks is a lot! we are not recording the philharmonic (plink plink) here.

OK I read the M audio specs and the Tascam specs and they do have decent specs for THD, freq response, signal to noise and gain etc. They are certainly NOT garbage. What part of those interfaces, and please be specific with hard #'s is the issue? I've got specs of my Tangent analog mixing board, considered to be one of the better ones back in the 80's and those two interfaces are better on all fronts, with the exception of total gain but the numbers aren't in the same units so I can't be sure.

From RME regarding their new UFX
" Microphone and instrument preamps of the UFX use the core technology from RME's Micstasy - a high-end preamp for supreme sonic demands and critical applications, like the professional recording of classical concerts. The fully symmetrical preamp design impresses with extremely low distortion, excellent signal to noise ratio and a perfect linear frequency response. A premium solution for transmitting and amplifying any audio input truly unchanged, be it high-level stage or typical studio signals, lower level and high-impedance instruments, or dynamic, condenser and ribbon microphones"

What that is saying is no matter what you plug into it you are going to get it all out, with no noise and no coloration. Depends on what you are recording and if that is important or not. Actually the screamer grind core band of my sons is a real challenge. I don't like the loss of fidelity in the crashing cymbals and we need a lot of range to cover off the screamer parts and dynamics of all the instruments. So to accurately represent the live performance a better interface would be cool but certainly not a requirement. there are workarounds.

Content always trumps production in my opinion.

You obviously haven't used any Tascam or M-Audio gear. The preamps are brittle and have no headroom. The analog circuitry inside is garbage and adds it's own undesirable signature. Comparing specs on a piece of gear from the 80's is not very helpful when comparing with today's quality pieces unless you're talking about well maintained vintage Neve consoles (some of them anyway) or Trident etc that had oodles of headroom to go with the iron. Specs are a starting point but not the ending point.

Shark, you seem continually bent on championing cheap gear which is great if that's what you want. Cheap and quality however are not equal. Can an experienced pro audio engineer make do on cheap stuff? Yes. Because they understand what they are using and how to work around the limitations and problems that come with it. It will never be what a real engineer wants to work with however. For someone without that knowledge it is a constant stream of headaches to work with cheap gear.

+1 for John's post

I think, it is fine if you go your own way.
Please, accept that we have a vast knowledge about most of the gear and brands available over a long period of time in this forum.
Consider our advices as well meaning. More we can't do....
You will soon know why we said that specs are not the all important instance to judge a device. They cannot tell you the real vallue of a unit.
You get brittle Pres and then spend 2 grand on an outboard vintage EQ with desastrous specs to make it sound any good...lol...

As to 24 tracks... I started on a 24 track MTR and often those 24 tracks were enough, but as soon as you get some additional backing vocals,
percussion, 2 or 3 voiced solos, etc. you have a brain puzzle to work out. Not to forget alternative tracks that musicians want to keep.
These days 24 tracks is not enough. And my P5 machine never had more than 2 GB. Even with FX in the 24 channels it had some headroom left.
The plugs you are using must be CPU hogs. This can be a real show stopper. Watch out for that...

you see this all the time on message boards over and over. opinionated regulars dissing this and that and not reading properly and seriously it's a discussion. me bent on cheap gear??, huh??. holy man this is a home recording forum - so in the realm the Tascam etc is perfectly suitable.

Obviously a $500 interface will not perform as well as the RME or Focusrite and specs do show that. I would put the FR up there with the RME in terms of #'s. But the M-Audio and Tascam specs aren't that bad...unless they are bogus which may be the case. And they may well sound brittle too. I do have two Tascam units just got them a few months ago. Both units have excellent reviews on Musician's Friend. But am wondering the same thing - what might be better not only in the pre-amp stage but all the circuitry through to the digital stage.

We do use a preamp for vocals in fact and it's this box which is outrageously good..... TC-Helicon | VoiceTone Correct XT - Adaptive Tone, Correction, Anti-feedback

Squawk through one of these you'll love it.

TC Electronic makes great gear at decent prices. With Focusrite, the quality/value is really dependent on which piece. The Red is excellent. The Saffire less so.

Companies always skew the specs to show what they want. That is why specs are a starting point and not the end story.

Just cos you are doing it at home doesn't mean that care and attention should fly out the window, no?

As everyone kno, on-paper specs mean jack-diddly-squat in real applications. Just cos the Tascam posts (and who double-blinds these tests) a THD and headroom response comparable, means nothing. OP, you'll see the way its flowing, don't be tempted by shiny silver cases and better specs. If its $1000 cheaper, its cheaper for a really simple reason.

Chris:

I have a feeling (like most everything) there is going to be something new in the converter market this year so be prepared. I would expect Lynx to do something cool but its only speculation. Lets see if I'm right.

We talked about this before. Its long overdue. So long overdue I'm wondering when the manufacturers are going to man up and start putting something out that equals FF800 conversion at a slightly higher dollar point, with some usable whistles, or even bells. But there's no murmers.

There is an RME FF800 ? used up here for $1000. Anyway this is a review. Clean amps are always nice, even for live sound distortion whether you can actually hear it or not, is hard on the ears....

" When I first stared recording in my home I was using an old GNX4 as an interface. That was back in 2003 and since then I have upgraded to the Presonus FirePod, then to the Mackie 800R, from there I used most recently a MOTU Traveler. This was a lot of money spent upgrading because if it was pops and clicks, dropouts, or just plain lifeless recordings I always felt I needed the updrade. Well for the last month I have been using my new RME Fireface 800, I never have any latancy issues, great software mixer interface, tons of headroom, Firewire 800, and simply put the cleanest, most acurate recordings I have ever made. You will immediatly hear the difference in the quality of this converter compared to the others listed, I am just upset I waited so long to spend the money to buy this. I can't say enough good things about it, but I will tell you that even at $1600 it is really worth it, yes the recordings are that much better. Again if you are going to upgrade your A/D/A converter please give the RME a look, the sound quality is amazing."

You can also use boutique mic pre's and just go line input on this thing (later down the road). Also our media PC's have firewire built-in so no probs in hook-up. Not my laptops tho.

But the latest and greatest from RME is the UFX. You can pre-order at M-F they are due for delivery in a few weeks.

I have two FF800's and chain them together when I need that many inputs. I have been wanting a third to max out the 1394b (firewire 800 speed) but the used prices have not come down to what I am willing to spend on redundancy. I think that actually says quite a bit about the quality of the unit that even the advent of the UFX has not been able to kill off the price or usefulness of the earlier FF800. These chain flawlessly with the Glyph Tech drives (GT051, GT050Q, GT062e, GT103-800). I feed the line inputs with outboard preamps but am not afraid to use the onboard pres when necessary even for ribbon mics.

[As an aside, I have now utilized the Cloudlifter from Cloud Microphones. I can report that it is a very useful tool for dynamic moving coil and ribbon microphones.]

I am all for smart spending, computers and interfaces are just not an area I compromise on. For entry level, Presonus does decently well as does TC Electronic Impact Twin or Konnekt 48. Somewhere between or among these and the Fireface are the Audient line of interfaces but I don't have much experience with these. The Mackie 800R is a very useful addition to any of the above due to it's digital output and variable impedence and MS decoder.

I will have an RME FF800 by this time tomorrow. How cool is that! Smokin' deal too. The guy selling it says "i got it as a package deal with a preamp and it didn't fit in with my current workflow, which is another firewire mixer. mostly because i am just so used to the way i'm doing things now. the converters in the gear i'm using now aren't as good as the ones in the fireface but i prefer the setup i have."

We just recorded an EP last weekend on the Tascam M164UF and I am having problems in the mix- loss of definition on the higher frequencies, just missing that "swish" on the cymbals and snap on the drums and the vocals are like the bro said above kinda lifeless. But lucky I found this effect in reaper the LOSER Exciter which from what I can hear adds some square wave back into the mix and nicely rebuilds that missing top end, fully controllable. Not as saavy of course as the real deal but at least it's working. I'll post the song(s) when we get them done.

The second you plug it in, you will reel at the difference. I own £80k+ worth of gear, much less than many on here, but both me and they appreciate just what a gem the 800 is - its one of the few pieces where I've seen a big, big improvement instead of a minor one that makes me get buyers' remorse! Grats.

bad news is we've got like 5 songs in mixing at the moment and i asked if they wanted to re-record (when thinking about the new interface) my son said no.

i'll certainly be able to back to back this unit for a nice comparison. should be cool.